Dear Inkscape Project Leadership,
# Background
I have ordered 24 t-shirts featuring the design for 1.4 on white cotton. The design is meeting with approval from people who have been asked and I would like funding to be able to send these to members and cover their production costs.
See photo of me wearing t-shirt here: https://chat.inkscape.org/channel/team_vectors?msg=hLavFfkSrbdd95HF5
Sizes available: Unisex Medium=3, Large=7, XL=6, 2XL=4 Women Medium=1, Large=2, XL=1
I'll be making them available to contributors who are members of the project and who have been active during the 1.4 release (so over 2023 and 2024) in any area, not just code on a first come first served basis.
Logistically, I have them here now and I will be sending them out one at a time to people's addresses directly from here in the USA. If it's cheaper, I may request a European plc member to take a batch of them but I'll document that if it happens.
Each shirt will cost $12 plus I'm estimating $20 per delivery cost (though I expect that to be widely variable). The project only needs to buy the ones I send out to contributors.
# Vote
Budget $900 to cover the maximum possible costs of sending out these shirts, the amount to be less than this once they've all been sent out and delivery costs are known.
a. Approve of t-shirt budget b. Disapprove c. Something else
I abstain from the voteas the t-shirt vendor 😅️.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
b. disapprove
While I'm a supporter of t-shirts for contributors generally, we can't and shouldn't approve expenses after the purchase is already made. Of course you know this, as this isn't the first time you've done it. Continually violating a well established policy seems purposeful at this point. Not sure what the purpose is. Ted On Oct 9 2024, at 8:14 am, Martin Owens doctormo@geek-2.com wrote:
Dear Inkscape Project Leadership,
# Background I have ordered 24 t-shirts featuring the design for 1.4 on white cotton. The design is meeting with approval from people who have been asked and I would like funding to be able to send these to members and cover their production costs.
See photo of me wearing t-shirt here: https://chat.inkscape.org/channel/team_vectors?msg=hLavFfkSrbdd95HF5
Sizes available: Unisex Medium=3, Large=7, XL=6, 2XL=4 Women Medium=1, Large=2, XL=1
I'll be making them available to contributors who are members of the project and who have been active during the 1.4 release (so over 2023 and 2024) in any area, not just code on a first come first served basis.
Logistically, I have them here now and I will be sending them out one at a time to people's addresses directly from here in the USA. If it's cheaper, I may request a European plc member to take a batch of them but I'll document that if it happens.
Each shirt will cost $12 plus I'm estimating $20 per delivery cost (though I expect that to be widely variable). The project only needs to buy the ones I send out to contributors.
# Vote Budget $900 to cover the maximum possible costs of sending out these shirts, the amount to be less than this once they've all been sent out and delivery costs are known.
a. Approve of t-shirt budget b. Disapprove c. Something else
I abstain from the voteas the t-shirt vendor 😅️. Best Regards, Martin Owens _______________________________________________ Inkscape Board of Directors mailing list -- inkscape-board@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-board-leave@lists.inkscape.org
On 2024-10-09 13:26, Ted Gould wrote:
b. disapprove While I'm a supporter of t-shirts for contributors generally, we can't and shouldn't approve expenses after the purchase is already made. Of course you know this, as this isn't the first time you've done it. Continually violating a well established policy seems purposeful at this point. Not sure what the purpose is.
This isn't out of the blue, I did talk about it with developers and meetings and with pono.
Though I understand that this must look out of the blue from this mailing list's perspective.
Martin,
On Oct 9 2024, at 2:23 pm, doctormo@geek-2.com wrote:
On 2024-10-09 13:26, Ted Gould wrote:
b. disapprove While I'm a supporter of t-shirts for contributors generally, we can't and shouldn't approve expenses after the purchase is already made. Of course you know this, as this isn't the first time you've done it. Continually violating a well established policy seems purposeful at this point. Not sure what the purpose is.
This isn't out of the blue, I did talk about it with developers and meetings and with pono.
Though I understand that this must look out of the blue from this mailing list's perspective.
"Out of the blue" isn't the issue. Surely every vote that comes here is a surprise to someone. The issue is approving it after the purchase is already made. It impedes the ability of the PLC to provide governance, which is its job. Ted
Interesting, but I don't see it that way.
I vote a. approve
On a related note, I've renewed and payed for the Apple Developer program in May so I can provide uninterrupted services for the project. I haven't started the reimbursement process yet due to personal reasons, but when I do, I'll kick it off with a vote. According to what I've just read here, there will be trouble, yes?
René
Am 09.10.2024 um 23:12 schrieb Ted Gould ted@gould.cx:
On Oct 9 2024, at 2:23 pm, doctormo@geek-2.com wrote: On 2024-10-09 13:26, Ted Gould wrote:
b. disapprove While I'm a supporter of t-shirts for contributors generally, we can't and shouldn't approve expenses after the purchase is already made. Of course you know this, as this isn't the first time you've done it. Continually violating a well established policy seems purposeful at this point. Not sure what the purpose is.
This isn't out of the blue, I did talk about it with developers and meetings and with pono.
Though I understand that this must look out of the blue from this mailing list's perspective.
"Out of the blue" isn't the issue. Surely every vote that comes here is a surprise to someone. The issue is approving it after the purchase is already made. It impedes the ability of the PLC to provide governance, which is its job.
Ted
Inkscape Board of Directors mailing list -- inkscape-board@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-board-leave@lists.inkscape.org
On Oct 10 2024, at 5:39 am, René de Hesselle dehesselle@icloud.com wrote:
On a related note, I've renewed and payed for the Apple Developer program in May so I can provide uninterrupted services for the project. I haven't started the reimbursement process yet due to personal reasons, but when I do, I'll kick it off with a vote. According to what I've just read here, there will be trouble, yes?
Yes. The problem is that it changes to vote to "Do we reimburse Rene, a guy we know and love?" instead of "Do we continue our project's relationship with Apple?". You already made that decision unilaterally. It removes the PLC from making the core decision. Now I think that we would vote to do that, but it's important who makes that decision from a governance perspective. Generally speaking running a non-profit is much more difficult with finances. It isn't a business that can do what it wants with funds. There is a lot of verification and process that has to be associated with it to ensure compliance with the laws. Which are cumbersome, but protect from people using charities as a tax shelter or laundering money through them. Ted
If project would work as it should it would proactively paid this fee to the apple and Rene would not have to do this dance with PLC . This points to lack of care and is so embarrassing , There's no point to have this discussion every year nothing chaged. Project still aims to support Mac os and it needs to pay that fee it's impossible to do it without it This behavior and altitude only discourages contribution to the project.
On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 3:10 PM Ted Gould ted@gould.cx wrote:
On Oct 10 2024, at 5:39 am, René de Hesselle dehesselle@icloud.com wrote:
On a related note, I've renewed and payed for the Apple Developer program in May so I can provide uninterrupted services for the project. I haven't started the reimbursement process yet due to personal reasons, but when I do, I'll kick it off with a vote. According to what I've just read here, there will be trouble, yes?
Yes. The problem is that it changes to vote to "Do we reimburse Rene, a guy we know and love?" instead of "Do we continue our project's relationship with Apple?". You already made that decision unilaterally. It removes the PLC from making the core decision. Now I think that we would vote to do that, but it's important who makes that decision from a governance perspective.
Generally speaking running a non-profit is much more difficult with finances. It isn't a business that can do what it wants with funds. There is a lot of verification and process that has to be associated with it to ensure compliance with the laws. Which are cumbersome, but protect from people using charities as a tax shelter or laundering money through them.
Ted
Inkscape Board of Directors mailing list -- inkscape-board@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-board-leave@lists.inkscape.org
On Oct 10 2024, at 8:23 am, Adam Belis adam.belis@gmail.com wrote:
If project would work as it should it would proactively paid this fee to the apple and Rene would not have to do this dance with PLC . This points to lack of care and is so embarrassing , There's no point to have this discussion every year nothing chaged. Project still aims to support Mac os and it needs to pay that fee it's impossible to do it without it This behavior and altitude only discourages contribution to the project.
Yes, I agree that it would be wonderful if we had someone taking care of getting approval and executing all those little expenditures so that other people didn't have to do it. This is a project that is largely worked on by volunteers, is that something you're willing to volunteer to take on? I'm not sure how it'd work with Rene's account, but we can probably figure that part out. Ted
Rene us already doing this I do not understand why would need anything else except to say thank you for keeping this task on a track Rene here's a money.
On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 7:19 PM Ted Gould ted@gould.cx wrote:
On Oct 10 2024, at 8:23 am, Adam Belis adam.belis@gmail.com wrote:
If project would work as it should it would proactively paid this fee to the apple and Rene would not have to do this dance with PLC . This points to lack of care and is so embarrassing , There's no point to have this discussion every year nothing chaged. Project still aims to support Mac os and it needs to pay that fee it's impossible to do it without it This behavior and altitude only discourages contribution to the project.
Yes, I agree that it would be wonderful if we had someone taking care of getting approval and executing all those little expenditures so that other people didn't have to do it. This is a project that is largely worked on by volunteers, is that something you're willing to volunteer to take on?
I'm not sure how it'd work with Rene's account, but we can probably figure that part out.
Ted
b, for a slightly different reason than ted: IMO, the reason for having teams is to have the requests to the board come from the teams assessing needs for parts of the project, prior to asking the PLC
Mc
On 09/10/2024 3:14 PM, Martin Owens wrote:
Dear Inkscape Project Leadership,
# Background
I have ordered 24 t-shirts featuring the design for 1.4 on white cotton. The design is meeting with approval from people who have been asked and I would like funding to be able to send these to members and cover their production costs.
See photo of me wearing t-shirt here: https://chat.inkscape.org/channel/team_vectors?msg=hLavFfkSrbdd95HF5
Sizes available: Unisex Medium=3, Large=7, XL=6, 2XL=4 Women Medium=1, Large=2, XL=1
I'll be making them available to contributors who are members of the project and who have been active during the 1.4 release (so over 2023 and 2024) in any area, not just code on a first come first served basis.
Logistically, I have them here now and I will be sending them out one at a time to people's addresses directly from here in the USA. If it's cheaper, I may request a European plc member to take a batch of them but I'll document that if it happens.
Each shirt will cost $12 plus I'm estimating $20 per delivery cost (though I expect that to be widely variable). The project only needs to buy the ones I send out to contributors.
# Vote
Budget $900 to cover the maximum possible costs of sending out these shirts, the amount to be less than this once they've all been sent out and delivery costs are known.
a. Approve of t-shirt budget b. Disapprove c. Something else
I abstain from the voteas the t-shirt vendor 😅️.
Best Regards, Martin Owens _______________________________________________ Inkscape Board of Directors mailing list -- inkscape-board@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-board-leave@lists.inkscape.org
I vote b.
I would love to have one of these t-shirts sent to me, but I agree both with Ted and Marc, that asking for reimbursement without prior discussion isn't appropriate here.
Tav
PS. I would be happy to transport some of these to Europe during my next trip to Boston.
----- Original Message ----- | From: "Martin Owens" doctormo@geek-2.com | To: "Inkscape Board" inkscape-board@lists.inkscape.org | Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2024 3:14:40 PM | Subject: [Inkscape-board] Contributor T-Shirts for 1.4 | | Dear Inkscape Project Leadership, | | # Background | | I have ordered 24 t-shirts featuring the design for 1.4 on white | cotton. The design is meeting with approval from people who have been | asked and I would like funding to be able to send these to members | and | cover their production costs. | | See photo of me wearing t-shirt here: | https://chat.inkscape.org/channel/team_vectors?msg=hLavFfkSrbdd95HF5 | | Sizes available: | Unisex Medium=3, Large=7, XL=6, 2XL=4 | Women Medium=1, Large=2, XL=1 | | I'll be making them available to contributors who are members of the | project and who have been active during the 1.4 release (so over 2023 | and 2024) in any area, not just code on a first come first served | basis. | | Logistically, I have them here now and I will be sending them out one | at a time to people's addresses directly from here in the USA. If | it's | cheaper, I may request a European plc member to take a batch of them | but I'll document that if it happens. | | Each shirt will cost $12 plus I'm estimating $20 per delivery cost | (though I expect that to be widely variable). The project only needs | to | buy the ones I send out to contributors. | | # Vote | | Budget $900 to cover the maximum possible costs of sending out these | shirts, the amount to be less than this once they've all been sent | out | and delivery costs are known. | | a. Approve of t-shirt budget | b. Disapprove | c. Something else | | I abstain from the voteas the t-shirt vendor 😅️. | | Best Regards, Martin Owens | _______________________________________________ | Inkscape Board of Directors mailing list -- | inkscape-board@lists.inkscape.org | To unsubscribe send an email to | inkscape-board-leave@lists.inkscape.org |
Thanks for voting everyone,
The results are as follows:
- Martin (abstain) b. Ted b. Tav b. Marc a. Rene - Josh - Jonathan
By three to one the project funding for these t-shirts is rejected.
By consultation these are the lessons learned:
1. Start the process from a specific team. 2. Allow members input at multiple stages. 3. Request funding before proceeding with designs.
I will be selling these t-shirts privately and I'll send a link to those on the board who expressed interest.
Thanks again for considering this proposal.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
On Wed, 2024-10-09 at 09:14 -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
Dear Inkscape Project Leadership,
# Background
I have ordered 24 t-shirts featuring the design for 1.4 on white cotton. The design is meeting with approval from people who have been asked and I would like funding to be able to send these to members and cover their production costs.
See photo of me wearing t-shirt here: https://chat.inkscape.org/channel/team_vectors?msg=hLavFfkSrbdd95HF5
Sizes available: Unisex Medium=3, Large=7, XL=6, 2XL=4 Women Medium=1, Large=2, XL=1
I'll be making them available to contributors who are members of the project and who have been active during the 1.4 release (so over 2023 and 2024) in any area, not just code on a first come first served basis.
Logistically, I have them here now and I will be sending them out one at a time to people's addresses directly from here in the USA. If it's cheaper, I may request a European plc member to take a batch of them but I'll document that if it happens.
Each shirt will cost $12 plus I'm estimating $20 per delivery cost (though I expect that to be widely variable). The project only needs to buy the ones I send out to contributors.
# Vote
Budget $900 to cover the maximum possible costs of sending out these shirts, the amount to be less than this once they've all been sent out and delivery costs are known.
a. Approve of t-shirt budget b. Disapprove c. Something else
I abstain from the voteas the t-shirt vendor 😅️.
Best Regards, Martin Owens _______________________________________________ Inkscape Board of Directors mailing list -- inkscape-board@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-board-leave@lists.inkscape.org
participants (7)
-
Adam Belis -
doctormo＠geek-2.com -
Marc Jeanmougin -
Martin Owens
-
René de Hesselle -
tavmjong＠free.fr -
Ted Gould