is an SVG element, not an attribute (I originally made that mistake myself), and label is not part of the SVG standard at all; it's an attribute in our own namespace. Try inkscape:label="Layer1" FWIW, there's an important difference of purpose between <title> and inkscape:label... <title> is an accessibility feature for end-users (e.g. to provide brief descriptions for folks using assistive technology) -- <desc> is its "longer" equivalent. Conversely, inkscape:label is intended for names and annotations that need only be meaningful to the content author. You've probably seen the weird notations that some graphic designers like to use for their layer names in Gimp, Illustrator, or Photoshop. inkscape:label provides a place for that so they don't go trying to cram it into id or <title> instead. -mental --===============6133077521413623283==-- From bulia byak Thu Nov 4 16:42:22 2004 From: bulia byak To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 20:42:07 -0400 Message-ID: <3c78ff0304110416423cf7273b@...401...> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0411041149490.9631@...179...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4963915106505245429==" --===============4963915106505245429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That reminds me ... we could really use a "make sublayer from selection" > action or something similar. Why, the New Layer command could just take the selection and put it into the new layer. I think it would be logical. > (I think if the selection is a single group, that would just make the > group a layer; otherwise it'd group the objects first and then make a > layer of that.) Yes. > > Two problems: > > > > - on open, it shows (root). I think we agreed that if there's a single > > layer it must be entered on load if there's no current layer > > remembered in namedview? > > Hmm. I recall implementing that; perhaps it has been broken at some point > since? Please test and fix, it's an important thing for newbie layerers. > <title> is an SVG element, not an attribute (I originally made that > mistake myself), and label is not part of the SVG standard at all; it's an > attribute in our own namespace. Try inkscape:label="Layer1" Ah, thanks, that works. > Conversely, inkscape:label is intended for names and annotations that need > only be meaningful to the content author. You've probably seen the weird > notations that some graphic designers like to use for their layer names in > Gimp, Illustrator, or Photoshop. inkscape:label provides a place for that > so they don't go trying to cram it into id or <title> instead. That makes sense. So, what remains to do apart from enabling the buttons? (I can't wait :) --===============4963915106505245429==-- From Alan Horkan Thu Nov 4 16:44:49 2004 From: Alan Horkan To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 00:44:37 +0000 Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58L0.0411050034260.30814@...232...> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0411041149490.9631@...179...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2380146647077609986==" --===============2380146647077609986== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote: > Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:21:36 -0500 (EST) > From: MenTaLguY <mental(a)...3...> > To: bulia byak <buliabyak(a)...400...> > Cc: Inkscape <inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net> > Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again > > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, bulia byak wrote: > > > I added manually > > > > <g id="l1" title="Layer1" label="Layer1" inkscape:groupmode="layer"> > > ... > > </g> > > > > around the content of a file. > > That reminds me ... we could really use a "make sublayer from selection" > action or something similar. "New Layer from Copy Ctrl+J" and "New Layer from Cut Ctrl+Shift+J" work rather well (see Adobe Photoshop (7.0) or my scripts for the gimp:) http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~horkana/dev/gnome/gimp/script-fu/script-fu.html (python-fu version of "Layer from" also available) Other raster application like Paint Shop Pro have something like Promote selection to layer but having used both I've got to say I prefer the way photoshop does it because I think gets you closer to where you were going anyway (I liked it so much I implemented it twice). I hope you'll try out my scripts to get a better feel for it before you make up your mind how to implement it. > <title> is an SVG element, not an attribute (I originally made that > mistake myself), and label is not part of the SVG standard at all; it's an > attribute in our own namespace. Try inkscape:label="Layer1" > > FWIW, there's an important difference of purpose between <title> and > inkscape:label... I dont understand why you cannot use the group id directly as the layer name. Jasc Webdraw has a tree view widget, somewhat reminiscent of a layers dialog and the id's are the labels (although i think it automatically forces you to replace spaces with underscores). Sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ Inkscape, Draw Freely http://inkscape.org Free SVG Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org --===============2380146647077609986==-- From Bryce Harrington Thu Nov 4 22:24:26 2004 From: Bryce Harrington To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 22:24:16 -0800 Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0411042223520.30099-100000@...261...> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0411041149490.9631@...179...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1344150011734203654==" --===============1344150011734203654== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote: > FWIW, there's an important difference of purpose between <title> and > inkscape:label... > > <title> is an accessibility feature for end-users (e.g. to provide brief > descriptions for folks using assistive technology) -- <desc> is its > "longer" equivalent. > > Conversely, inkscape:label is intended for names and annotations that need > only be meaningful to the content author. You've probably seen the weird > notations that some graphic designers like to use for their layer names in > Gimp, Illustrator, or Photoshop. inkscape:label provides a place for that > so they don't go trying to cram it into id or <title> instead. <title> and inkscape:label sound redundant to me. Bryce --===============1344150011734203654==-- From MenTaLguY Fri Nov 5 18:02:40 2004 From: MenTaLguY To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 21:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <1099706546.3637.545.camel@...4...> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58L0.0411050034260.30814@...232...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9119858972175699649==" --===============9119858972175699649== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 19:44, Alan Horkan wrote: > I dont understand why you cannot use the group id directly as the layer > name. Jasc Webdraw has a tree view widget, somewhat reminiscent of a > layers dialog and the id's are the labels (although i think it > automatically forces you to replace spaces with underscores). Two reasons: 1. changing the id requires updating the document structure (which is a pain to require for every name change, and will be obnoxious to users who use external document references) 2. as you point out, the grammar for ids is very constrained; there are other restrictions besides simply whitespace being disallowed that would seem very annoying and arbitrary to users naming layers -mental --===============9119858972175699649== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" MIME-Version: 1.0 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuMi40IChHTlUv TGludXgpCgppRDhEQlFCQmpEQ3ljVU5JR2lYQ2M0TVJBc1FWQUp3SW1LdHNjRUNxd1ZSMHF0RWho YmFLeTdQZ2xBQ2drY0FHCnJSRldnaktZWE1lRWJwdVlueWNzQTNzPQo9MnoyVAotLS0tLUVORCBQ R1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K --===============9119858972175699649==-- From MenTaLguY Fri Nov 5 18:27:47 2004 From: MenTaLguY To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 21:27:23 -0500 Message-ID: <1099708042.1521.571.camel@...4...> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0411042223520.30099-100000@...261...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0692852360396241694==" --===============0692852360396241694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 01:24, Bryce Harrington wrote: > <title> and inkscape:label sound redundant to me. Well... check out section 5.4 of the SVG 1.1 recommendation and see what you think. To sum up by example, though: Is "Daisy's hat, decorated with spring flowers," a usable layer name? Would most authors mind having the layer dialog or layer selector be wide enough to show that? Alternately, is "Hat [lineart] A" a useful textual/audio rendering for users employing assistive technology? Many designers tend to name their layers more like the latter, while the SVG spec suggests <title>'s use as an accessibility feature for content consumers which may be rendered via tooltips, alternate stylesheets, speech synthesis, etc. A secondary issue is that <title> (and <desc>) are supposed to support arbitrary markup (e.g. XHTML), which is probably a bit beyond what we want to have to deal with in layer names. I didn't realize that at first when I had you do the initial UI for them (at that time I thought they were attributes, too). -mental --===============0692852360396241694== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" MIME-Version: 1.0 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuMi40IChHTlUv TGludXgpCgppRDhEQlFCQmpEYUtjVU5JR2lYQ2M0TVJBcTNEQUtDWHRlWFBtWFVqbG4zd2sxQ09i RHRPRURoZERnQ2dyTm10Cmk5ZG94cXRtbFcxc1ZEcWEzRml2YnUwPQo9cnJOZQotLS0tLUVORCBQ R1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K --===============0692852360396241694==-- From MenTaLguY Fri Nov 5 19:40:10 2004 From: MenTaLguY To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 22:39:53 -0500 Message-ID: <1099712392.3637.582.camel@...4...> In-Reply-To: <3c78ff0304110416423cf7273b@...401...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4910945005035259609==" --===============4910945005035259609== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 19:42, bulia byak wrote: > > That reminds me ... we could really use a "make sublayer from selection" > > action or something similar. > > Why, the New Layer command could just take the selection and put it > into the new layer. I think it would be logical. That might be confusing... for example, if a user draws a bunch of shapes on one layer, and then immediately creates a new one, the last shape drawn will get moved to the newly created layer. > So, what remains to do apart from enabling the buttons? (I can't wait :) >From Roadmap: * Finish show/hide lock/unlock buttons [mental] * Add UI for setting inkscape:label attribute [mental] * Add "selection to sublayer" command and its inverse [mental, bb] * Make "move to next/prev layer" move selected objects to next/prev layer [mental, bb] * Make "intelligent" raise/lower aware of visibility status (using per-desktop SPDesktop::itemIsHidden?) [bb] * Make selection tool and tests for item-at-point aware of per-desktop visibility [bb] * search checks inkscape:label, and ignores layers [bb] With respect to "intelligent" raise/lower, we should skip over invisible objects as well as those whose bboxes are outside the viewport. Also, it shouldn't be possible to select an invisible object with the selection tool. -mental --===============4910945005035259609== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" MIME-Version: 1.0 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuMi40IChHTlUv TGludXgpCgppRDhEQlFCQmpFZUljVU5JR2lYQ2M0TVJBbkZaQUtDb2EwalpwTVVuSDZCU1ppME55 M2I3Snk0M3p3Q2Zha2VhClV2ZTRBRkFhVHVGaW5ZYmZtc2QxQmVNPQo9eTNYZgotLS0tLUVORCBQ R1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K --===============4910945005035259609==-- From Alexandre Prokoudine Sat Nov 6 01:33:20 2004 From: Alexandre Prokoudine To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:31:31 +0300 Message-ID: <733f2c7304110601317a22003d@...401...> In-Reply-To: <1099708042.1521.571.camel@...4...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3022196350032323790==" --===============3022196350032323790== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 21:27:23 -0500, MenTaLguY <mental(a)...3...> wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 01:24, Bryce Harrington wrote: > > <title> and inkscape:label sound redundant to me. > > Well... check out section 5.4 of the SVG 1.1 recommendation and see what > you think. To sum up by example, though: > > Is "Daisy's hat, decorated with spring flowers," a usable layer name? > Would most authors mind having the layer dialog or layer selector be > wide enough to show that? A nice solution would be cropping the name to widget boundaries and displaying the rest of it as a hint (like MS Word does it for header names in outline palette). Alexandre --===============3022196350032323790==-- From MenTaLguY Sat Nov 6 10:16:49 2004 From: MenTaLguY To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 13:16:37 -0500 Message-ID: <1099764997.3637.600.camel@...4...> In-Reply-To: <733f2c7304110601317a22003d@...401...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4840510326366394883==" --===============4840510326366394883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 04:31, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: > > Is "Daisy's hat, decorated with spring flowers," a usable layer name? > > Would most authors mind having the layer dialog or layer selector be > > wide enough to show that? > > A nice solution would be cropping the name to widget boundaries and > displaying the rest of it as a hint (like MS Word does it for header > names in outline palette). I believe that's already built into the modern Gtk treeview widget. In any case I just don't want an audio SVG navigator to spit out "Hat bracket lineart unbracket EY," someday because that was a convenient layer name for the artist and we were using <title> for layer names. -mental --===============4840510326366394883== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" MIME-Version: 1.0 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuMi40IChHTlUv TGludXgpCgppRDhEQlFCQmpSVUZjVU5JR2lYQ2M0TVJBcXFwQUo0dmtGZ1cxZURzWkkwa2tZYXMx aWFKSTJmRmZBQ2dsSkIyCjJYaGxha0h0R0E5UUJHamplLzJselNVPQo9RXliNwotLS0tLUVORCBQ R1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K --===============4840510326366394883==--

From bulia byak Thu Nov 4 07:26:36 2004 From: bulia byak To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: [Inkscape-devel] layers again Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:26:23 -0400 Message-ID: <3c78ff0304110407261afc5747@...401...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5838012505682124607==" --===============5838012505682124607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I added manually ... around the content of a file. Two problems: - on open, it shows (root). I think we agreed that if there's a single layer it must be entered on load if there's no current layer remembered in namedview? - it shows #l1 so title and label are ignored. What is the way to set the visible title apart from id? --===============5838012505682124607==-- From MenTaLguY Thu Nov 4 16:21:58 2004 From: MenTaLguY To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 19:21:36 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3c78ff0304110407261afc5747@...401...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6133077521413623283==" --===============6133077521413623283== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, bulia byak wrote: > I added manually > > > ... > > > around the content of a file. That reminds me ... we could really use a "make sublayer from selection" action or something similar. (I think if the selection is a single group, that would just make the group a layer; otherwise it'd group the objects first and then make a layer of that.) > Two problems: > > - on open, it shows (root). I think we agreed that if there's a single > layer it must be entered on load if there's no current layer > remembered in namedview? Hmm. I recall implementing that; perhaps it has been broken at some point since? > - it shows #l1 so title and label are ignored. What is the way to set > the visible title apart from id? is an SVG element, not an attribute (I originally made that mistake myself), and label is not part of the SVG standard at all; it's an attribute in our own namespace. Try inkscape:label="Layer1" FWIW, there's an important difference of purpose between <title> and inkscape:label... <title> is an accessibility feature for end-users (e.g. to provide brief descriptions for folks using assistive technology) -- <desc> is its "longer" equivalent. Conversely, inkscape:label is intended for names and annotations that need only be meaningful to the content author. You've probably seen the weird notations that some graphic designers like to use for their layer names in Gimp, Illustrator, or Photoshop. inkscape:label provides a place for that so they don't go trying to cram it into id or <title> instead. -mental --===============6133077521413623283==-- From bulia byak Thu Nov 4 16:42:22 2004 From: bulia byak To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 20:42:07 -0400 Message-ID: <3c78ff0304110416423cf7273b@...401...> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0411041149490.9631@...179...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4963915106505245429==" --===============4963915106505245429== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That reminds me ... we could really use a "make sublayer from selection" > action or something similar. Why, the New Layer command could just take the selection and put it into the new layer. I think it would be logical. > (I think if the selection is a single group, that would just make the > group a layer; otherwise it'd group the objects first and then make a > layer of that.) Yes. > > Two problems: > > > > - on open, it shows (root). I think we agreed that if there's a single > > layer it must be entered on load if there's no current layer > > remembered in namedview? > > Hmm. I recall implementing that; perhaps it has been broken at some point > since? Please test and fix, it's an important thing for newbie layerers. > <title> is an SVG element, not an attribute (I originally made that > mistake myself), and label is not part of the SVG standard at all; it's an > attribute in our own namespace. Try inkscape:label="Layer1" Ah, thanks, that works. > Conversely, inkscape:label is intended for names and annotations that need > only be meaningful to the content author. You've probably seen the weird > notations that some graphic designers like to use for their layer names in > Gimp, Illustrator, or Photoshop. inkscape:label provides a place for that > so they don't go trying to cram it into id or <title> instead. That makes sense. So, what remains to do apart from enabling the buttons? (I can't wait :) --===============4963915106505245429==-- From Alan Horkan Thu Nov 4 16:44:49 2004 From: Alan Horkan To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 00:44:37 +0000 Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58L0.0411050034260.30814@...232...> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0411041149490.9631@...179...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2380146647077609986==" --===============2380146647077609986== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote: > Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:21:36 -0500 (EST) > From: MenTaLguY <mental(a)...3...> > To: bulia byak <buliabyak(a)...400...> > Cc: Inkscape <inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net> > Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again > > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, bulia byak wrote: > > > I added manually > > > > <g id="l1" title="Layer1" label="Layer1" inkscape:groupmode="layer"> > > ... > > </g> > > > > around the content of a file. > > That reminds me ... we could really use a "make sublayer from selection" > action or something similar. "New Layer from Copy Ctrl+J" and "New Layer from Cut Ctrl+Shift+J" work rather well (see Adobe Photoshop (7.0) or my scripts for the gimp:) http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~horkana/dev/gnome/gimp/script-fu/script-fu.html (python-fu version of "Layer from" also available) Other raster application like Paint Shop Pro have something like Promote selection to layer but having used both I've got to say I prefer the way photoshop does it because I think gets you closer to where you were going anyway (I liked it so much I implemented it twice). I hope you'll try out my scripts to get a better feel for it before you make up your mind how to implement it. > <title> is an SVG element, not an attribute (I originally made that > mistake myself), and label is not part of the SVG standard at all; it's an > attribute in our own namespace. Try inkscape:label="Layer1" > > FWIW, there's an important difference of purpose between <title> and > inkscape:label... I dont understand why you cannot use the group id directly as the layer name. Jasc Webdraw has a tree view widget, somewhat reminiscent of a layers dialog and the id's are the labels (although i think it automatically forces you to replace spaces with underscores). Sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ Inkscape, Draw Freely http://inkscape.org Free SVG Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org --===============2380146647077609986==-- From Bryce Harrington Thu Nov 4 22:24:26 2004 From: Bryce Harrington To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 22:24:16 -0800 Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0411042223520.30099-100000@...261...> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0411041149490.9631@...179...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1344150011734203654==" --===============1344150011734203654== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote: > FWIW, there's an important difference of purpose between <title> and > inkscape:label... > > <title> is an accessibility feature for end-users (e.g. to provide brief > descriptions for folks using assistive technology) -- <desc> is its > "longer" equivalent. > > Conversely, inkscape:label is intended for names and annotations that need > only be meaningful to the content author. You've probably seen the weird > notations that some graphic designers like to use for their layer names in > Gimp, Illustrator, or Photoshop. inkscape:label provides a place for that > so they don't go trying to cram it into id or <title> instead. <title> and inkscape:label sound redundant to me. Bryce --===============1344150011734203654==-- From MenTaLguY Fri Nov 5 18:02:40 2004 From: MenTaLguY To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 21:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <1099706546.3637.545.camel@...4...> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58L0.0411050034260.30814@...232...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9119858972175699649==" --===============9119858972175699649== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 19:44, Alan Horkan wrote: > I dont understand why you cannot use the group id directly as the layer > name. Jasc Webdraw has a tree view widget, somewhat reminiscent of a > layers dialog and the id's are the labels (although i think it > automatically forces you to replace spaces with underscores). Two reasons: 1. changing the id requires updating the document structure (which is a pain to require for every name change, and will be obnoxious to users who use external document references) 2. as you point out, the grammar for ids is very constrained; there are other restrictions besides simply whitespace being disallowed that would seem very annoying and arbitrary to users naming layers -mental --===============9119858972175699649== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" MIME-Version: 1.0 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuMi40IChHTlUv TGludXgpCgppRDhEQlFCQmpEQ3ljVU5JR2lYQ2M0TVJBc1FWQUp3SW1LdHNjRUNxd1ZSMHF0RWho YmFLeTdQZ2xBQ2drY0FHCnJSRldnaktZWE1lRWJwdVlueWNzQTNzPQo9MnoyVAotLS0tLUVORCBQ R1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K --===============9119858972175699649==-- From MenTaLguY Fri Nov 5 18:27:47 2004 From: MenTaLguY To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 21:27:23 -0500 Message-ID: <1099708042.1521.571.camel@...4...> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0411042223520.30099-100000@...261...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0692852360396241694==" --===============0692852360396241694== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 01:24, Bryce Harrington wrote: > <title> and inkscape:label sound redundant to me. Well... check out section 5.4 of the SVG 1.1 recommendation and see what you think. To sum up by example, though: Is "Daisy's hat, decorated with spring flowers," a usable layer name? Would most authors mind having the layer dialog or layer selector be wide enough to show that? Alternately, is "Hat [lineart] A" a useful textual/audio rendering for users employing assistive technology? Many designers tend to name their layers more like the latter, while the SVG spec suggests <title>'s use as an accessibility feature for content consumers which may be rendered via tooltips, alternate stylesheets, speech synthesis, etc. A secondary issue is that <title> (and <desc>) are supposed to support arbitrary markup (e.g. XHTML), which is probably a bit beyond what we want to have to deal with in layer names. I didn't realize that at first when I had you do the initial UI for them (at that time I thought they were attributes, too). -mental --===============0692852360396241694== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" MIME-Version: 1.0 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuMi40IChHTlUv TGludXgpCgppRDhEQlFCQmpEYUtjVU5JR2lYQ2M0TVJBcTNEQUtDWHRlWFBtWFVqbG4zd2sxQ09i RHRPRURoZERnQ2dyTm10Cmk5ZG94cXRtbFcxc1ZEcWEzRml2YnUwPQo9cnJOZQotLS0tLUVORCBQ R1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K --===============0692852360396241694==-- From MenTaLguY Fri Nov 5 19:40:10 2004 From: MenTaLguY To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 22:39:53 -0500 Message-ID: <1099712392.3637.582.camel@...4...> In-Reply-To: <3c78ff0304110416423cf7273b@...401...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4910945005035259609==" --===============4910945005035259609== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 19:42, bulia byak wrote: > > That reminds me ... we could really use a "make sublayer from selection" > > action or something similar. > > Why, the New Layer command could just take the selection and put it > into the new layer. I think it would be logical. That might be confusing... for example, if a user draws a bunch of shapes on one layer, and then immediately creates a new one, the last shape drawn will get moved to the newly created layer. > So, what remains to do apart from enabling the buttons? (I can't wait :) >From Roadmap: * Finish show/hide lock/unlock buttons [mental] * Add UI for setting inkscape:label attribute [mental] * Add "selection to sublayer" command and its inverse [mental, bb] * Make "move to next/prev layer" move selected objects to next/prev layer [mental, bb] * Make "intelligent" raise/lower aware of visibility status (using per-desktop SPDesktop::itemIsHidden?) [bb] * Make selection tool and tests for item-at-point aware of per-desktop visibility [bb] * search checks inkscape:label, and ignores layers [bb] With respect to "intelligent" raise/lower, we should skip over invisible objects as well as those whose bboxes are outside the viewport. Also, it shouldn't be possible to select an invisible object with the selection tool. -mental --===============4910945005035259609== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" MIME-Version: 1.0 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuMi40IChHTlUv TGludXgpCgppRDhEQlFCQmpFZUljVU5JR2lYQ2M0TVJBbkZaQUtDb2EwalpwTVVuSDZCU1ppME55 M2I3Snk0M3p3Q2Zha2VhClV2ZTRBRkFhVHVGaW5ZYmZtc2QxQmVNPQo9eTNYZgotLS0tLUVORCBQ R1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K --===============4910945005035259609==-- From Alexandre Prokoudine Sat Nov 6 01:33:20 2004 From: Alexandre Prokoudine To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:31:31 +0300 Message-ID: <733f2c7304110601317a22003d@...401...> In-Reply-To: <1099708042.1521.571.camel@...4...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3022196350032323790==" --===============3022196350032323790== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 21:27:23 -0500, MenTaLguY <mental(a)...3...> wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 01:24, Bryce Harrington wrote: > > <title> and inkscape:label sound redundant to me. > > Well... check out section 5.4 of the SVG 1.1 recommendation and see what > you think. To sum up by example, though: > > Is "Daisy's hat, decorated with spring flowers," a usable layer name? > Would most authors mind having the layer dialog or layer selector be > wide enough to show that? A nice solution would be cropping the name to widget boundaries and displaying the rest of it as a hint (like MS Word does it for header names in outline palette). Alexandre --===============3022196350032323790==-- From MenTaLguY Sat Nov 6 10:16:49 2004 From: MenTaLguY To: inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: layers again Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 13:16:37 -0500 Message-ID: <1099764997.3637.600.camel@...4...> In-Reply-To: <733f2c7304110601317a22003d@...401...> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4840510326366394883==" --===============4840510326366394883== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 2004-11-06 at 04:31, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: > > Is "Daisy's hat, decorated with spring flowers," a usable layer name? > > Would most authors mind having the layer dialog or layer selector be > > wide enough to show that? > > A nice solution would be cropping the name to widget boundaries and > displaying the rest of it as a hint (like MS Word does it for header > names in outline palette). I believe that's already built into the modern Gtk treeview widget. In any case I just don't want an audio SVG navigator to spit out "Hat bracket lineart unbracket EY," someday because that was a convenient layer name for the artist and we were using <title> for layer names. -mental --===============4840510326366394883== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" MIME-Version: 1.0 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuMi40IChHTlUv TGludXgpCgppRDhEQlFCQmpSVUZjVU5JR2lYQ2M0TVJBcXFwQUo0dmtGZ1cxZURzWkkwa2tZYXMx aWFKSTJmRmZBQ2dsSkIyCjJYaGxha0h0R0E5UUJHamplLzJselNVPQo9RXliNwotLS0tLUVORCBQ R1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0K --===============4840510326366394883==--