Hello Francois,
Clearly, you have no clue what SVG is about and don't care about the concept of open standards. I think that is the basis of your problem. That said, I think part of your criticism is justified. On accord of the UI, there is a lot to be desired and it is a problem that needs to be tackled sooner rather than later. I for one am dreaming of a fully customisable UI with SVG widgets that can be scaled to whatever size the end user would desire and alternatively would allow for easy adaptation using CSS style sheets. That would require mainly an API for Inkscape that would allow for Python or Javascript to access functions in the application at the same level as the current UI does. It might even allow for using a different renderer as it could render in a browser that way, lowering dependencies on a single 3rd party library. I also see advantages to move the processing of rendering into a cloud that with multithreading of processing might then do all the dirty work and render your 100.000 object plus Gaussian blur filter with transparency in a mere few seconds.
As there are quite a few other issues at hand to be tackled, I can imagine that hiring a team of UI design nazi's to reorganise and mainatain the Inkscape UI is low on the list of priorities. If anything I would suggest to use any proceeds from the fund raiser to try and produce an Inkscape API that would facilitate a total redesign of the UI or enable users a elegant and simple way to change them to their hearts desire. Think about what could be done with that by a team of people that do nothing but UI and UX design, but have no clue about how to run a make file.
However, that will not be anytime soon. When you write criticism about software like Inkscape, try to imagine that a multitude of people have dedicated their spare time on this project for the pleasure of creating a usable tool and sometimes going a bit over the top in producing feasibility experiments. The nice thing about Inkscape is that it has some functions you will not find in any other software, simply because nobody ever thought about it or would not bother to spend so much time on it. LPE's are one of them. Now sadly these functions are often the product of a single person who may have a brain for maths but not for design and UI design. The fact they come up with something as usable as many UI objects are I think is quite an achievement, but a lack of consistency is a direct result.
But I cannot be clear enough about the amount of respect I have for these people that have managed to come up with a a tool that can compete and in many ways surpasses the abilities of software created by monopolist companies that will deprecate their older file formats at a whim. Inkscape as it is, is an amazing piece of software despite a long list of desires that anyone may have. The mere fact that people like you and me are addressed to when we come with our unhinged remarks is equally amazing. We are addressing their passion child with criticisms while it is reaching a level of maturity that few would have envisioned when they started their endevour to produce the next best thing to cheese. That they react a bit grumpy when we do is to be understood, so would I.
On accord of SVG not being the best format for diagrams, I and other clearly disagree with you. SVG is the best format for diagrams, but Inkscape isn't the best tool for it. If you use Libreoffice you can create all the diagrams you want and make an export to SVG that will do most of the work for you. Inkscape has some functionality, but the focus on it is low. Probably also because the nearly completed SVG 2 is about to come with some nifty methods for that to incorporate and it would be waste of time and effort to do that now. Flow text has been a pain for years due to Adobe murdering SVG 1.2. They're one of the reasons you see mainly png, jpg, gif and maybe you can recall they bought Flash at some point that coincides with that happening.
One of the nice things of using SVG for instance is that you can extend its functionality if you want. Have a look at this for diagrams and maybe you'll get the point I'm trying to make. Yeah,.. it lacks a nice GUI for sure and it doesn't do artistic things the way you want, but if you understand how to draw your objects in Inkscape and do a <use> object in SVG, you might save yourself some time in producing some really serious diagrams. The user docs (link2) give nice examples.
https://github.com/srguiwiz/adj-js http://srguiwiz.github.io/adj-js/user-docs/
And Martin, it really doesn't take 50 million bucks and 9000 programmers. What it takes is a good API for Inkscape with documentation. If there is an API, the lesser gods of programming can take the UI for a spin. It would even be feasible to have a UI design team being addressed by the creators of functions to style a UI for a new function that way, making a separation of skills and thus getting the best results on both ends possible. For complex projects that is a better way to create and maintain it, just like you would do OOP in programming. Guarding a house style visually is easier for many people than good programming styles. If Inkscape has a way for them to not screw it up they will be more daring.
Truly, the fund raising text is a bit of a dud. Maybe I can come up with a text along the lines of Alex suggestion that is a bit more specific. I guess it is more in my marketing expertise to do something like that and I want to make this passion child of ours even better than cheese. If you could send me a list of things to be addressed and what benefits there are to be had that would be enough to work on. I guess 3 would be a bit too much work to find. I would suggest making a list of issues, what they solve and have people interested in addressing those issues tag them for interest to work on with a link to their resumes or something like it. That way it would also be easier to assemble teams on a topic once the fund raising target has been met.
Some estimate of time involved to tackle an issue would be handy as that can be used to set a fund raising target. It would also allow for companies that have a slump time in the current economic situation to take on an issue. You wouldn't want a single company to be the whole team I guess in case the slump time is over and they have to make some real money again, but it may enable some to pay the wages of a currently redundant employee. I see a win win situation in that. For others it may just be what they need to cover their rent and food bills to get seriously involved in something they always wanted to do, but never had the opportunity to. Not that many people have jobs that allow them time for FOSS development.
Let everyone that would like to manage a project create a Gantt chart such a project and scrutinise it with all involved and/or outsiders have a say in this process. Those hours should be billed once the Gantt chart is accepted and the fund raising is completed. That way part of the whole process can start before the end of a fund raising and people can get an insight into the amount of time and effort is involved. It will also set clear targets for everyone. Another advantage of Gantt charts is that managers understand those and they often have the keys to funds. If they think a project that addresses their problems is feasible, they may be more inclined to throw some serious dough at it. Enthusiasts may also be able to convince their managers with that.
I'm also pretty sure I can come up with a good marketing plan to find funds, once we have a good method in place. There are plenty of companies that are less than thrilled with working in the cloud and would for instance support any effort of Inkscape to get good CMYK and Spot color support. Sure there are issues on both that are hard to address, but finding a way to address these issues may be an interesting project in itself. Find a method and I am sure there are people interested in funding that method even if it takes a buck. There are plenty of people that would like to see a bit of competition between Adobe and a viable alternative that would be able to lift the whole project to a new level. I know people may be averse to that, but I see it as inevitable anyway. Inkscape has too much clout and potential not to professionalise like all other projects of this scope.
And Francois,.. after all these comments and the time involved in it, I would say that you can at least sent a tenner. If you're smart and capable, you'd sent more as it would probably be faster to make Inkscape do what you'd like it to do than find some nice product that does all. Alternatively hire a team and make it happen by proposing a project of your needs. Other than all the other software you know, this is the one application you can influence to suit your needs.
Cheers,
Jelle
PS And to everyone,.. Happy New Goat!
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 21:19:27 +0100 From: Teto <teto45@...2519...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Good Press for 0.91 To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: <54E250CF.8060902@...2519...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Le 15/02/2015 21:19, Alexandre Prokoudine a ?crit :
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Martin Owens wrote:
why don't we have a single UI for all tools,
Because it would cost about $50 million and more programmers than are possibly available. The amount of energy required to sync up and do design properly across such a large and diverse set of programs is over 9000!
Martin, I would start with "no team is ready to even approach the subject beyond a few common user interaction solutions"
E.g. years ago I did a study, how many hotkeys can be shared between different applications. Turned out, not too many. Driving apps further in that direction would imply dramatically changing user interaction in each of them, and not necessarily for the better (for instance, it would limit the way that developers can enhance the tools), and some of the developers would rather die than go for that (the sK1 team, for instance, is deliberately cloning Corel DRAW's user interaction).
Even Adobe's suite has known user interaction incompatibilities between apps. They do try to hunt them down, but the suite is controlled by a single commercial entity, wheareas Inkscape, GIMP, MyPaint, Krita, Blender etc. are apps developed by different teams with different ideas.
The libre design suite is a dream, but, in my all-but-humble opinion, having mature design apps that don't share some design decisions, but are compatible via open standards, is good enough to build production pipelines.
All of the problems you have could be helped with better funding. A hard problem, we're working on solving. Would you contribute that $100 to making inkscape better?
If you can take just one more comment from me :), I would suggest thinking of a more detailed agenda for the hackfest.
"Being together in one room also allows us to work on things that are harder to do on-line: designing a new plugin/extension system, teaming up to squash particularly nasty bugs, authoring better user documentation, and planning where to take Inkscape development in the future." is a bit specific, but only that much.
Fundraising works best when people see stuff like this:
- We want to bring X developers together who have shown interest to
work on A, B, C, and D features or fixing this and that infamous bugs.
- Implementing those features/Fixing those bugs will benefit you in
E, F, and G ways.
- We have G,H, I, J, and K developers who epxressed their interest in
participating. They are known for doing L, M, N, and O work, so they are skillful and already made stuff you most likely benefitted from.
If you think that at this stage you would be able to do something like that, it would likely get you more funds.
Alex
Thank you Alexandre for your answer and I'll use it for my answer to all people after my last message :
- I thank you for this message because when I read the annoucement for the hackfest I didn't understand what it's about and why I'd give money for having people around a table and talking about Inskcape. I'm serious. So thanks for selling me the concept (better).
- Someone talked about Deviantart and something like "that's funny that you said that nothing in deviantart is made with svg, because the logo is made with svg, actually, hahaha, gotcha !". *Sigh*. I think there's some difference between a site made for the most part in svg for graphics, and a site with just its logo. And I was talking about artists that may draw with vector software, but never share their work directly in svg or other vector format, for obvious reasons. Oh, well, never mind.
- Also, It's not because svg is the best format for diagrams that it is widely used for them. In my professional work, when people need to make a diagram, they use Powerpoint, or a soft made specifically for diagrams, not a soft like Inskcape that is not designed to draw easily and quickly complex diagrams (I tried, and I had hard time).
- Someone told me about giving 100$ to help for development. Yep, sure, except that now I'm sure that Inkscape will never be what I wish. Unify the UI for tools like Filters, LPE and so on ? Don't count on that, you said, because of "debts" and the fact that it's too much work. OK, so you tell me that you'll never touch of those "debts" ? Do you realize that a day or another, you soft will be stuck because of this, and it will be impossible to improve because "really too much work" ? Is it really not possible to change that now, when it's not too late ? (or maybe it's already too late ?) Now I clearly see what Inkscape will be. A soft that can draw in the svg (2, 5, whatever) standard, but with an user interface that is a pain to use for many tools, and limited by its own structure. Sorry, I won't pay 100$ for this. I'll prefer pay that for a soft that fits my """artist""" needs.
Don't get me wrong. Again, I don't want fo insult anyone. The soft is great, and fairly perfect for 80% of my needs. But I do know now that for more ambitious drawings I'll need another vector soft, more artist-oriented. There are many cheap softs for painters (really good, and without a standard to follow !), no doubt there will be new softs for vector artists sooner or later (Illustrator doesn't count, too expensive).
Cheers, Francois.