>        The workflow is draw first, style second.  (Personally I like that
> routine much better than choosing the style first.  So when you're making
> changes, please make it optional, so that those who prefer the "old" way,
> can continue without altering their personal routines.)

The new way will not affect the old way of doing it if you like that better.
The idea is that the user should be able, at any point to select a
fill and stroke, and have the next thing drawn be that colour.
This will not change if you want to select a different colour after
you draw - newly drawn/selected items will still be filled with the
colours chosen by the user for stroke and fill after they are
drawn.selected in the same manner as it does now.

The changes add the ability to use the Lower-Left stroke and fill
widget as a master widget for colour, so you don't have to set the
fill/stroke colour in the tool dialog (upper-left) - which most users
seem to miss anyway.

One colour widget to rule them all, one to find them, one to bring
them all, and in the Inkscape bind them.
-C

>
>        So draw a rectangle.  Yikes, nothing's there.  I can see the dotted
> lines and arrows (i.e. bounding box and selection handles), but my rectangle
> isn't there.

Yes, this is why it's nice to set the draw colour/fill before the
rectangle is drawn.

>        Why isn't it there?  Because the last time you drew a rectangle,
> eventually you made it completely transparent.  Now, every rectangle you
> draw will be transparent, until you change it.  Oh, you changed it to blue?
> Now every rectangle will be blue, until you change one.

If the user has chosen to draw blue rectangles, reverting to some
other default colour doesn't make a lot of sense. In most drawing
programs, the "current colour" (the one shown in the colour widget) is
what the drawn shape will be.

I draw a line - I make it red. I draw another line... but it's
reverted back to the default line colour... I'm wanting to draw red
lines, that's why I went through the trouble of changing the colour. I
have to change it every single time = big big waste of time.
To get around this, as others have noted, the workflow is draw a bunch
of lines, select them all, then paste style. Yea... it's not great.
It's what people are complaining about.

This is why it's simpler to have one widget to control colour.
Currently the user has to look all over to see where to change the
default colour, and are baffled when the colour changes back to the
default colour when they draw a new shape.

>        As I said before, it's easily the most asked question, both in forums
> and LP Answers.  And in my opinion, well, a ridiculous feature.

Simplifying the interface into a single colour widget will help, also
if the user changes things outside this colour widget, new objects
should not retain the transparency settings. - This more than anything
causes confusion.

A distinction needs to be made between object transparency and fill
alpha colour.

Object transparency, controlled by the slider in the stroke/fill
dialog should not affect the current colour (and thus not the affect
the colour/transparency of newly drawn items). - This, more often than
not is what causes completely invisible objects, and it's a pain for
the user to try and figure out which settings are causing the object
to be transparent.

It's a difficult problem, but with your help, I'm sure we can come up
with a solution that works better for everyone.

> Most
> newbies pick up Inkscape, and they're happily clicking away, not thinking
> about anything, but marvelling over the awesome program.  An hour later, or
> a day, or a week, and they don't remember that they were playing with either
> the alpha channel or Opacity slider.  And also in my opinion, it's not
> intuitive that whatever change I make is permanent for the tool.

Yes exactly. This is part of what I'm working on remedying. We are on
the same page here.

>        What's the solution?  Explain to everyone how to change the style
> settings for all their tools.

This implies there is some means of forcing people to read tutorials.
The "happily clicking away" thing is what needs to continue. The tool
configuration landmines are what need to be replaced - an easy way to
do that is to re-think how transparency and colour are applied, and
provide a more intuitive and simpler interface that doesn't have
vanishing bits. I believe we collectively can do this without adding a
bottleneck to anyones workflow, and removing the substantial ones that
we all have just gotten used to living with because that's how it's
always been. :)

>        Anyway, I'm rather shocked that the mailing list crowd doesn't
> understand what the problem is.  I guess it underscores once again how far
> removed many developers are, from the user community.

Many people in this thread use Inkscape professionally, myself
included (every working day, for a professional portfolio you wouldn't
even believe was made in FLOSS).
So let's not go the us vs. them route. There is no "them", only us.
Let's try and find a solution that works for everyone.

>        Would it be such a hard thing to do, to make the default doc have all
> the tools set for "own style"?

I think for some tools this makes sense, but only if "own style" is
replaced by "last used" style for that tool.

If I am adding text to a doc, I don't want to have to change the
colour from some default value every time I add more text.
If I'm drawing shapes, I expect that Inkscape will preserve the colour
I've chosen, not change it back to some default value until I tell it
to change the colour.
If I'm drawing lines, I'd like the same as for shapes, though often
the fill gets in the way. It's not that big a deal to change the fill
to transparent, but maybe a good solution is to change the fill to
none by default, then add fill colour if the line becomes a closed
shape.

This is not a simple problem, and understanding all the implications
is half the battle. Let's continue to work on it together.

-C

> Thanks again,
> brynn
>
> -----Original Message----- From: C R
> Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:12 PM
> To: brynn
> Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens ; Olof Bjarnason
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2
>
>
> Hi brynn. I think maybe we were confused about what you wanted. Sorry
> we guessed wrong. On the plus side, it opened up discussion of the
> tools, and how styles are used/reused, and it seems no one likes how
> it currently is very much - Which is why I'm making mockups of how it
> could work. I'll try and do a video showing the steps for each option.
>
> It's taking a lot of thought, and consideration of different
> workflows, because the tools and how they function differ, so coming
> up with a unified solution that makes everyone happy will take a bit
> of time.
>
> Can you advise in particular the workflow you are using - I think we
> would benefit from an example or two. I'll try to get in touch with
> you on irc this week to discuss it so we properly address your
> problem.
>
> Thanks for your patience!
> -C
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:45 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Everyone,
>>        Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and
>> a
>> half.  Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I
>> honestly didn't expect much response!
>>
>>        Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion.  And
>> some of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked.  It's almost
>> like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted
>> everyone
>> else to comment what they've been holding onto for years.  But I don't
>> think
>> it ever came back around to my question.
>>
>>        Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator,
>> or
>> when Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc.,
>> (if
>> I followed it all).....  Yikes, I'm totally lost!
>>
>>        Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing the
>> object won't solve the problem I'm having.  Not unless you somehow make it
>> impossible to draw first and choose style second.  And then you'll have
>> complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw
>> first, style second.
>>
>>        I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and
>> offer
>> comments.
>>
>>        But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn't
>> require a ui change afaik).  Please, can we make all the tools set for
>> "This
>> tool's own style" as the default?  I don't mean take away "Last Used
>> Style"
>> as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it).  I just mean, for
>> the
>> default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start
>> with everything set for "...Own Style"?
>>
>>        It would not require current users, who might be using "last
>> style",
>> to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep
>> them
>> using whatever they already use.  This would ONLY affect newbies, and make
>> them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less
>> bothered!)
>>
>>        Not that I know much about programming.  But what little I
>> understand
>> about how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make
>> this change.  Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in
>> the
>> default doc?  Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?
>>
>>        Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, I
>> guess I will make the feature request.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> brynn
>>
>> PS -   (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens
>> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM
>> To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R
>> Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel
>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style
>>
>> On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not
>>> get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make
>>> this happen...
>>
>>
>>
>> This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle
>> developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally
>> with users.
>>
>> Best regards, Martin Owens
>>
>>
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