TL;DNR: please always snap nodes in the node tool.
On 16-4-2012 22:55, Diederik van Lierop wrote:
Hi all,
Good to see that so many people still care about snapping :-)
Note that at the moment I care most about "fixing" the snapping in the node tool.
On 04/16/2012 07:54 PM, Johan Engelen wrote:
I think that snapping is inherently asymmetric. While you have control over what will snap (by putting the mouse close to it),
.. and by using (shift-)tab to cycle through all snap sources ... BTW, please remind that not everyone is using the "only use snap source closest to the pointer" option. Let alone that they have touched the slider to set the weighing for that option.
I don't use "only use snap source closest to the pointer". The weighting is set to 0.5. I guess that is default. And seems to work fine for me. It feels like Inkscape chooses a point close to my mouse. (in the node tool, none of this matters)
you have no quick control over what it will snap to.
I don't agree with that. You can control what it will snap too, by moving your mouse towards your desired snap target. That's the whole idea of snapping ;-). If this doesn't work for you, then you might have too many snap targets enabled.
Ok, I was a bit too quick in typing that :) sorry. Still, I think you have better control over snap source, because you have only one object to worry about, instead of grid snap targets and all other paths...
I have learned over time though that everybody uses the snapping mechanisms in a different way. So my opinion, is just that: an opinion.
granted, mine is too only that :)
Would it be useful if I add (shift-)ctrl-tab cycling for the snap targets? You see, I'm an engineer: I try to solve problems by adding even more features ;-)
Hard to discover, but useful for 'power users'? I was not aware there already is snap source cycling. Have to read about how that works.
Enabling all snap sources is not very much different from enabling a few of them. Enable all snap targets will be uncontrollable. That's why I am in favor of an asymmetric interface.
Well, I have one technical argument against that: snapping can challenge even your brand new core i7. The number of possible combinations of sources and targets can grow quickly, for example when using a complex document (typically a large group of tiny objects from an imported pdf or dxf). In such a case it helps to disable as many snap targets and sources as possible. However, I also agree that this probably doesn't happen too often for our average user, while a cumbersome UI is something one simply cannot escape.
I guess this is in favor of always snapping nodes in the node tool, right? Because now one would have to add them as snap targets too. For the users I know, documents are never really complex. First time users also don't create very complicated documents. Still, I think the number of "always on" snap *sources* can be quite small: node tool: *always* snap nodes, no reason not to (shift) select tool: always snap bbox, (shift disables). I agree it is not a good idea to always snap path nodes in the select tool. shape tools: always snap, because there is only one snap source ever, right? (and shift disables)
(Related issue: I think the default snap delay should be zero (or maybe it is now?). The delay looked like a bug to a couple of new users I talked into using Inkscape :) (I don't know any program either that has such a (noticeable) delay). I am sure it is a nice feature, but I feel it is a feature that one has to knowingly set to non-zero.)
Example: to me it makes no sense to disable snapping of knots
It does! I tend to only use cusp nodes as a snap source, and not smooth nodes. Therefore I want to eliminate smooth nodes as a snap source, but if I hard code that then you will not be happy because you want to consider all as snap sources. They only way out of this is to make things configurable.
, because you can already quickly disable snapping while moving a knot by pressing shift.
Problem: press-shift-to-disable-snapping isn't implemented in all tools. That's my personal annoyance with Inkscape (more general: inconsistency of modifier keys).
So we should fix that, instead of creating some strange workaround ! In the node tool, it seems to work fine with shift so... let's please always snap those nodes? In tools where it doesn't work, I guess the "check_for_toggle_button" should be replaced with "! check_for_shift" ?
You see, I don't mind changing the UI or snapping code (otherwise I wouldn't still be working on this after five years). It's hard however to make everyone perfectly happy.
I don't think "always snapping node-tool knots" will make anybody unhappy :) If so, tell them about "shift". It is very strange to see the create path tool snap to the grid, and then the node tool not. It confused me and I started looking for a bug! (then after a while I tried turning on all snap buttons and then it worked)
Hope I am not upsetting you Diederik, it's all in good spirit. The new snapping stuff is wonderful. But the UI is such that I cannot use it! ;) I find it very unintuitive that I should look for snap options in the document properties dialog! The perp and tang snapping is great, but is way too much effort to look it up in the properties dialog and click it, do something, then unclick it, close dialog.
We should have a IRC/Jabber meeting about all this!
:-) Johan