Everyone seems to be so resistant to the idea of changing all the tools to "own style" for when a first time user opens Inkscape.

I don't understand why.

Because the questions you are seeing asked by new users are caused by a number of factors that relate to how colour and transparency are chosen and used in inkscape. In this thread we are considering all the factors before deciding what to do so we can come up with the best solution, and it's not clear that what you have proposed is the best solution. But we agree that the way it works now is confusing, not only to new users, but seasoned inkscape veterans as well.

But it won't solve the problem I've explained about. It might reduce them, but I doubt by much (if at all).

Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to usability for all users. Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without asking any questions. The problems those users are having can be solved with a unified solution that does not require a "for new users only" approach. Users should not have to learn something twice in inkscape just to prevent new user questions. Questions are a natural part of the learning process. It's more of a concern that the answer to the user question be a satisfying one that is easy to remember and applies in a consistent way to the rest of inkscape's ux. changing a default value to prevent questions is at best a bandaid for one particular user problem. In UX you want to treat the cause of the disease, not merely make one of the symptoms go away.

Patience is needed, as it's not a simple problem.

-C

And I don't understand why everyone seems so resistant.

Just to repeat myself. This would ONLY affect first time users. It's not taking away anything from existing users. And it would completely prevent these messages that we have to answer.

Can someone explain the resistance?

It would be an adventure.....but if someone would tell me how, I'll make the changes myself. (Although they'd have to explain in so much detail, they probably could do it themselves in that much time....)

Thanks,

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:12 PM
To: brynn
Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens ; Olof Bjarnason
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Hi brynn. I think maybe we were confused about what you wanted. Sorry
we guessed wrong. On the plus side, it opened up discussion of the
tools, and how styles are used/reused, and it seems no one likes how
it currently is very much - Which is why I'm making mockups of how it
could work. I'll try and do a video showing the steps for each option.

It's taking a lot of thought, and consideration of different
workflows, because the tools and how they function differ, so coming
up with a unified solution that makes everyone happy will take a bit
of time.

Can you advise in particular the workflow you are using - I think we
would benefit from an example or two. I'll try to get in touch with
you on irc this week to discuss it so we properly address your
problem.

Thanks for your patience!
-C

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:45 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

Hi Everyone,
Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and a
half. Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I
honestly didn't expect much response!

Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion. And
some of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked. It's almost
like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted everyone
else to comment what they've been holding onto for years. But I don't think
it ever came back around to my question.

Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator, or
when Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc., (if
I followed it all)..... Yikes, I'm totally lost!

Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing the
object won't solve the problem I'm having. Not unless you somehow make it
impossible to draw first and choose style second. And then you'll have
complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw
first, style second.

I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and offer
comments.

But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn't
require a ui change afaik). Please, can we make all the tools set for "This
tool's own style" as the default? I don't mean take away "Last Used Style"
as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it). I just mean, for the
default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start
with everything set for "...Own Style"?

It would not require current users, who might be using "last style",
to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep them
using whatever they already use. This would ONLY affect newbies, and make
them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less
bothered!)

Not that I know much about programming. But what little I understand
about how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make
this change. Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in the
default doc? Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?

Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, I
guess I will make the feature request.

Thanks again,
brynn

PS - (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)

-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM
To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R
Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style

On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not
get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make
this happen...

This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle
developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally
with users.

Best regards, Martin Owens

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Inkscape-devel mailing list
Inkscape-devel@...142...ge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel