Inkscape in print workflows: Feedback from a conference in Switzerland
Hi Inkscape developers,
This is my first posting to the developer list. Some of you may know who I am, others won't.
I'm a member of the Scribus development team, and I recently enjoyed the privilege of being invited as a speaker to the "swiss publishing days 2014" in Winterthur/Switzerland (http://swiss-publishing-week.ch/index.php). In terms of Open Source software, there was a talk about Scribus and another one about Photoshop alternatives (Photoshop Elements and GIMP). There was also a Mac + Eizo screen for everyone to use, which was especially set up to test PS, PSE, and GIMP, as well as Scribus and its PDF export with Acrobat. Please note that this was a commercial event, and its main sponsor was Adobe! Also note that it was for the first time in the history of the conference that alternatives to Adobe's traditional domains were being presented.
What I found astonishing was that while *everyone* knew about GIMP and many were aware of Scribus, *no one* had ever heard of Inkscape! Now they have, and they're definitely interested ;)
Many of the very nice people from Swiss training companies I talked to are more than eager to provide training, given Adobe's stranglehold and its new licensing scheme. In the case of image editing, enough companies have already switched to GIMP, which is why offering GIMP trainings is already profitable.
Interest in Scribus is growing, too, especially since the quality of its (print) PDF export has been there for everyone to test.
At lunch during the conference, I was approached by a pre-press engineer, colour management and Adobe-certified Acrobat/InDesign/Illustrator trainer who was asking questions over questions. He approached me again during dinner, and because he had so many questions, and I had to bring my laptop to the table, so he could play with Scribus. His verdict (after 3 hours): "Once you have polished this ("this" being Scribus 1.5.0svn), Adobe and other vendors won't be amused."
He also played with the stable Inkscape branch and was very impressed by its features for creatives. However, and this is something he rightfully noted, at least the printing business needs reliable PDF export, including CMYK and spot colours, colour profiles and font embedding. He said to me that, unless Inkscape embraces the PDF requirements of the printing industry, it will never been taken seriously, SVG::Print notwithstanding. What Inkscape needs is colour-managed PDF export and support of some print-specific PDF versions, especially PDF/X-*. It also needs to support CMYK and spot colours in PDFs. (Not my judgement; his!)
This posting isn't meant to criticise your fantastic work. I only intended to make you aware of the issues that still exist in professional environments when it comes to replacing AI. In terms of features Inkscape is already able to compete with AI, and sometimes it's even better. It's just that PDF thingy that prevents Inkscape from being used by the majority of pre-press professionals.
Kind regards,
Christoph
Thanks Christoph,
This was good information and good to see fellow FOSS projects promote Inkscape at this event...
On Wed, 2014-10-01 at 23:52 +0200, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:
What Inkscape needs is colour-managed PDF export and support of some print-specific PDF versions, especially PDF/X-*. It also needs to support CMYK and spot colours in PDFs. (Not my judgement; his!)
What we really need is investment. Companies have a poor understanding of what open Source development practices really involve. And it mostly falls down to "Self Responsibility". Being able to take control of the software and put resources into making it what you need while not ceding any of that control is fundamental.
A trade body is in a good position to be able to gather together multiple companies who alone might not be able to invest, but together might be able to.
Any features available in Inkscape are the product of demand from our investors. If our time investors (developers) or our contract investors aren't able to push end to end PDF export then the project won't develop that feature.
And this is where it gets hard. Trying to convince industry to change the way it looks at software products it uses. Instead of just accepting what ever Adobe deliver to them, we have to convince them to see a future where they have the features they need. Even if the present doesn't contain those features. Because without that future view, they won't invest, and if they don't invest we on't get those features. Catch 22.
Martin,
Hi Christoph, Sorry for the delayed reply. I hope we can follow up on this. Did you work on PDF export in Scribus? Perhaps Inkscape can re-use the PDF export code that was developed for Scribus, or at least learn a lot from it.
regards, Johan
On 1-10-2014 23:52, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:
Hi Inkscape developers,
This is my first posting to the developer list. Some of you may know who I am, others won't.
I'm a member of the Scribus development team, and I recently enjoyed the privilege of being invited as a speaker to the "swiss publishing days 2014" in Winterthur/Switzerland (http://swiss-publishing-week.ch/index.php). In terms of Open Source software, there was a talk about Scribus and another one about Photoshop alternatives (Photoshop Elements and GIMP). There was also a Mac + Eizo screen for everyone to use, which was especially set up to test PS, PSE, and GIMP, as well as Scribus and its PDF export with Acrobat. Please note that this was a commercial event, and its main sponsor was Adobe! Also note that it was for the first time in the history of the conference that alternatives to Adobe's traditional domains were being presented.
What I found astonishing was that while *everyone* knew about GIMP and many were aware of Scribus, *no one* had ever heard of Inkscape! Now they have, and they're definitely interested ;)
Many of the very nice people from Swiss training companies I talked to are more than eager to provide training, given Adobe's stranglehold and its new licensing scheme. In the case of image editing, enough companies have already switched to GIMP, which is why offering GIMP trainings is already profitable.
Interest in Scribus is growing, too, especially since the quality of its (print) PDF export has been there for everyone to test.
At lunch during the conference, I was approached by a pre-press engineer, colour management and Adobe-certified Acrobat/InDesign/Illustrator trainer who was asking questions over questions. He approached me again during dinner, and because he had so many questions, and I had to bring my laptop to the table, so he could play with Scribus. His verdict (after 3 hours): "Once you have polished this ("this" being Scribus 1.5.0svn), Adobe and other vendors won't be amused."
He also played with the stable Inkscape branch and was very impressed by its features for creatives. However, and this is something he rightfully noted, at least the printing business needs reliable PDF export, including CMYK and spot colours, colour profiles and font embedding. He said to me that, unless Inkscape embraces the PDF requirements of the printing industry, it will never been taken seriously, SVG::Print notwithstanding. What Inkscape needs is colour-managed PDF export and support of some print-specific PDF versions, especially PDF/X-*. It also needs to support CMYK and spot colours in PDFs. (Not my judgement; his!)
This posting isn't meant to criticise your fantastic work. I only intended to make you aware of the issues that still exist in professional environments when it comes to replacing AI. In terms of features Inkscape is already able to compete with AI, and sometimes it's even better. It's just that PDF thingy that prevents Inkscape from being used by the majority of pre-press professionals.
Kind regards,
Christoph
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:58 AM, Johan Engelen wrote:
Hi Christoph, Sorry for the delayed reply. I hope we can follow up on this. Did you work on PDF export in Scribus? Perhaps Inkscape can re-use the PDF export code that was developed for Scribus, or at least learn a lot from it.
AFAIK, libpdf from Scribus is heavily dependent on .sla's DOM. It's not exactly portable at the moment, unless I'm missing some changes in the past 2-3 years.
Alex
Bryce,
As You are also working on cairo: Is there any Chance cairo will Support cmyk and spotcolours? Lets say within 2 years. Regards, Adib. -
Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2014 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine :
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:58 AM, Johan Engelen wrote:
Hi Christoph, Sorry for the delayed reply. I hope we can follow up on this. Did you work on PDF export in Scribus? Perhaps Inkscape can re-use the PDF export code that was developed for Scribus, or at least learn a lot from it.
AFAIK, libpdf from Scribus is heavily dependent on .sla's DOM. It's not exactly portable at the moment, unless I'm missing some changes in the past 2-3 years.
Alex
Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7. Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month. Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications. Take corrective actions from your mobile device. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net javascript:; https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Adrian Johnson has come up with some patches a couple years back to get color management into cairo, but they went nowhere for a couple reasons, one of which is because we weren't responsive. I wouldn't be surprised if they're completely bitrotted at this point.
The branch is here: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~ajohnson/cairo/log/?h=color-space
Read more about it, thanks to Alexandre doing a write-up: http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/color-managed-cairo-is-slipping-awa...
I have no idea if the conversation on the cairo list went anywhere after the LGM article said it resumed.
Cheers, Josh
On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:02 PM, the Adib <theadib@...400...> wrote:
Bryce,
As You are also working on cairo: Is there any Chance cairo will Support cmyk and spotcolours? Lets say within 2 years. Regards, Adib.
Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2014 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine :
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:58 AM, Johan Engelen wrote:
Hi Christoph, Sorry for the delayed reply. I hope we can follow up on this. Did you work on PDF export in Scribus? Perhaps Inkscape can re-use the PDF export code that was developed for Scribus, or at least learn a lot from it.
AFAIK, libpdf from Scribus is heavily dependent on .sla's DOM. It's not exactly portable at the moment, unless I'm missing some changes in the past 2-3 years.
Alex
Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7. Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month. Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications. Take corrective actions from your mobile device. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
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this was the LGM 2012 :-O At this years LGM 2014 in Leipzig Chris Murphy a CMS expert was present. At the end of the event he was asking if anyone is interested in joining a workgroup to implement cms into the destop. So that any application can use it. I do not know how far this idea went. The cairo roadmap seems a little bit outdated, but who knows ...
Adib. --
On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 9:23 PM, Josh Andler <scislac@...400...> wrote:
Adrian Johnson has come up with some patches a couple years back to get color management into cairo, but they went nowhere for a couple reasons, one of which is because we weren't responsive. I wouldn't be surprised if they're completely bitrotted at this point.
The branch is here: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~ajohnson/cairo/log/?h=color-space
Read more about it, thanks to Alexandre doing a write-up:
http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/color-managed-cairo-is-slipping-awa...
I have no idea if the conversation on the cairo list went anywhere after the LGM article said it resumed.
Cheers, Josh
On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:02 PM, the Adib <theadib@...400...> wrote:
Bryce,
As You are also working on cairo: Is there any Chance cairo will Support cmyk and spotcolours? Lets say
within
2 years. Regards, Adib.
Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2014 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine :
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:58 AM, Johan Engelen wrote:
Hi Christoph, Sorry for the delayed reply. I hope we can follow up on this. Did you work on PDF export in Scribus? Perhaps Inkscape can re-use the PDF export code that was developed for Scribus, or at least learn a
lot
from it.
AFAIK, libpdf from Scribus is heavily dependent on .sla's DOM. It's not exactly portable at the moment, unless I'm missing some changes in the past 2-3 years.
Alex
Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7. Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month. Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push
notifications.
Take corrective actions from your mobile device. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
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27 окт. 2014 г. 0:47 "the Adib" <theadib@...400...> :
this was the LGM 2012 :-O At this years LGM 2014 in Leipzig Chris Murphy a CMS expert was present. At the end of the event he was asking if anyone is interested in joining a workgroup to implement cms into the destop. So that any application can use it.
Excuse me, what does this mean? For the past few years any application has been able to use colord or simply read _ICC_ATOM from X.org to color-correct display output (even Wayland has basic color management by now, to the best of my knowledge). There's even that Oyranos thing. Is this about CMS in widgets? Or full-screen color management? I'm puzzled.
As for Cairo, it is my understanding from conversations with various developers that it's architecturally unsuitable for CMYK and spot colors capable output.
Alex
Gesendet: Montag, 27. Oktober 2014 um 01:37 Uhr Von: "Alexandre Prokoudine" <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> An: Kein Empfänger Cc: "Inkscape Devel List" inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Betreff: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape in print workflows: Feedback from a conference in Switzerland
27 окт. 2014 г. 0:47 "the Adib" <theadib@...400...> :
this was the LGM 2012 :-O At this years LGM 2014 in Leipzig Chris Murphy a CMS expert was present. At the end of the event he was asking if anyone is interested in joining a workgroup to implement cms into the destop. So that any application can use it.
Excuse me, what does this mean? For the past few years any application has been able to use colord or simply read > _ICC_ATOM from X.org to color-correct display output (even Wayland has basic color management by now, to the best > of my knowledge). There's even that Oyranos thing. Is this about CMS in widgets? Or full-screen color management? > I'm puzzled. As for Cairo, it is my understanding from conversations with various developers that it's architecturally > > unsuitable for CMYK and spot colors capable output. Alex
This seems to be a misunderstanding. Inkscape already does CM, and, like GIMP, Krita or Scribus, does so very well, thanks to lcms. Thus, display CM is not an issue, but CM-based colour conversion for print files is. As I already wrote, at the conference in Switzerland, there was a Mac with GIMP, Photoshop, Scribus and InDesign available, and the monitor was one of the insanely expensive EIZO models used in many print workflows. There was *no* discernible or measurable difference in quality between Adobe's products and lcms-powered Open-Source programmes. The EIZO sales engineer -- who was very comptetent and friendly -- even scratched his head and wondered how this could be possible with a Free library. So this is not the issue. Moreover, the use of lcms helps with cross-platform compatibility.
I'm currently preparing a paper (PDF, c. 20 pages) based on feedback from several sources who are working in print workflows. It'll list and describe what users need to replace Illy *for print*. I will also suggest some potential short term and long term solutions. It may take a few weeks, as some testers need some time and will be able to provide feedback in November at the earliest. Some may also want to wait for the release of 0.91.
Please be patient :)
Kind regards,
Christoph
27 окт. 2014 г. 10:01 пользователь Christoph Schäfer написал:
I'm currently preparing a paper (PDF, c. 20 pages) based on feedback from several sources who are working in print workflows. It'll list and describe what users need to replace Illy *for print*. I will also suggest some potential short term and long term solutions. It may take a few weeks, as some testers need some time and will be able to provide feedback in November at the earliest.
If I may suggest, Staffan's http://www.libregraphicsproduction.com could be an ideal host for such a paper.
Alex
On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 01:23:58PM -0700, Josh Andler wrote:
Adrian Johnson has come up with some patches a couple years back to get color management into cairo, but they went nowhere for a couple reasons, one of which is because we weren't responsive. I wouldn't be surprised if they're completely bitrotted at this point.
The branch is here: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~ajohnson/cairo/log/?h=color-space
Read more about it, thanks to Alexandre doing a write-up: http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/color-managed-cairo-is-slipping-awa...
I have no idea if the conversation on the cairo list went anywhere after the LGM article said it resumed.
Cheers, Josh
On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:02 PM, the Adib <theadib@...400...> wrote:
Bryce,
As You are also working on cairo: Is there any Chance cairo will Support cmyk and spotcolours? Lets say within 2 years. Regards, Adib.
From Christoph Schäfer's followup it sounds like this is already a
solved problem thanks to lcms?
Otherwise, I'm happy to help shepherd Cairo patches into the tree.
Bryce
Am Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2014 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine :
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:58 AM, Johan Engelen wrote:
Hi Christoph, Sorry for the delayed reply. I hope we can follow up on this. Did you work on PDF export in Scribus? Perhaps Inkscape can re-use the PDF export code that was developed for Scribus, or at least learn a lot from it.
AFAIK, libpdf from Scribus is heavily dependent on .sla's DOM. It's not exactly portable at the moment, unless I'm missing some changes in the past 2-3 years.
Alex
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Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Oktober 2014 um 10:30 Uhr Von: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> An: "Josh Andler" <scislac@...400...> Cc: "Inkscape Devel List" inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Betreff: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape in print workflows: Feedback from a conference in Switzerland
On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 01:23:58PM -0700, Josh Andler wrote:
Adrian Johnson has come up with some patches a couple years back to get color management into cairo, but they went nowhere for a couple reasons, one of which is because we weren't responsive. I wouldn't be surprised if they're completely bitrotted at this point.
The branch is here: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~ajohnson/cairo/log/?h=color-space
Read more about it, thanks to Alexandre doing a write-up: http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/color-managed-cairo-is-slipping-awa...
I have no idea if the conversation on the cairo list went anywhere after the LGM article said it resumed.
Cheers, Josh
On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 1:02 PM, the Adib <theadib@...400...> wrote:
Bryce,
As You are also working on cairo: Is there any Chance cairo will Support cmyk and spotcolours? Lets say within 2 years. Regards, Adib.
From Christoph Schäfer's followup it sounds like this is already a
solved problem thanks to lcms?
Otherwise, I'm happy to help shepherd Cairo patches into the tree.
Bryce
Hi,
I'm not sure we're talking about the same issues here. Inkscape does display CMS just as well as GIMP, Krita, or Scribus. It also seems to support colour-managed SVGs in all supported colour models well.
What is missing is support for these colour models and CMS support during PDF and PostScript import and export, which includes EPS and AI. It's also necessary to give users PDF export control options, which I'll explain in detail in the announced paper.
People who've been following Cairo development closely told me that CMYK and spot colour support doesn't seem to be interesting to the Cairo team, but since this is hearsay, I cannot confirm the truth of it. I'd be pleased to be proven wrong.
Christoph
participants (7)
-
"Christoph Schäfer" -
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Bryce Harrington -
Johan Engelen -
Josh Andler -
Martin Owens -
the Adib