Hello all,
In the Inkscape project we're constantly butting up against the problem where there simply aren't enough modifiers for everything we'd like to implement. This means for most of our tools there is a constant battle to figure out how we can fit everything into Alt, Ctrl and Shift. We manage. But, many window managers are using alt click to drag windows which takes 1/3 of our options away.
There are lots of solutions to this, I'm curious which way makes sense to people.
- Applications could start using the "Meta" key. I don't like this because it seems to be something that is rather machine specific. I don't think applications should be using this modifier.
- There is some Freedesktop spec that says Window Managers should only use the meta modifier for their actions.
- Somewhere there is a spec that allows a window manager hint to be set by applications to say "I'd really like Alt, please!!!"
- Some users don't get functionality out of some apps unless they reconfigure the apps or their desktop.
My personal favorite here is "2" -- I think that the Meta key could be turned into the "desktop" key where other desktop actions could be assigned to it also.
--Ted
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:52:24 +0100, Ted Gould <ted@...11...> wrote:
Hello all,
In the Inkscape project we're constantly butting up against the problem where there simply aren't enough modifiers for everything we'd like to implement. This means for most of our tools there is a constant battle to figure out how we can fit everything into Alt, Ctrl and Shift. We manage. But, many window managers are using alt click to drag windows which takes 1/3 of our options away.
You left out meta, so it's only a 1/4.
There are lots of solutions to this, I'm curious which way makes sense to people.
- Applications could start using the "Meta" key. I don't like this
because it seems to be something that is rather machine specific. I don't think applications should be using this modifier.
Assuming that the alt-key is always available is machine specific too.
- There is some Freedesktop spec that says Window Managers should only
use the meta modifier for their actions.
- Somewhere there is a spec that allows a window manager hint to be set
by applications to say "I'd really like Alt, please!!!"
- Some users don't get functionality out of some apps unless they
reconfigure the apps or their desktop.
My personal favorite here is "2" -- I think that the Meta key could be turned into the "desktop" key where other desktop actions could be assigned to it also.
I don't see Freedesktop making any major headway on this, mostly because it is so ingrained already.
I frankly don't like any of those four. I'd vote for "Allow the alt-key to be mapped for mouse use just like it is for keyboard shortcuts, then the user can decide whether to mod the WM or the app."
What's so sacred about alt-mouse0 that it can't be mapped while alt-v can? Seriously, is there a big technical hitch with doing that?
If there is then fine, there's plenty of other more important things. I just don't get this idea that there's some principle at stake in using alt that's so important that every single Linux machine must be changed from its default settings rather than allow some other key to be used instead!
TW
On 8/3/07, Thomas Worthington <tww@...1737...> wrote:
What's so sacred about alt-mouse0 that it can't be mapped while alt-v can? Seriously, is there a big technical hitch with doing that?
Nothing sacred, except that Alt+mouse is processed in a lot more places because it has a lot of different functions in different contexts. If you're willing to search all these contexts and update them all with Meta option, go ahead. Note however that if you submit a patch, you will be responsible for maintaining it and making sure this option does not break as Inkscape develops, because I somehow don't think there will be lots of users of this option so you'll need to watch out for yourself. BTW, you will also need to patch all tutorials and documentation in many places. Is it really worth it?
If there is then fine, there's plenty of other more important things. I just don't get this idea that there's some principle at stake in using alt that's so important that every single Linux machine must be changed from its default settings rather than allow some other key to be used instead!
Just think about it: what is easier for a user, remap and relearn dozens of functions in a complex program that he uses a lot (and if you need Alt+mouse, you really are using Inkscape a lot - casual users can do very well without it), or remap and relearn a single function, less frequently used, in a window manager?
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 17:49 +0100, Thomas Worthington wrote:
What's so sacred about alt-mouse0 that it can't be mapped while alt-v can? Seriously, is there a big technical hitch with doing that?
As bulia said, the necessary code to change is scattered in many places in the codebase. I don't want to discourage anyone from adding e.g. an option to swap meta/alt in Inkscape (it seems like a reasonable idea to me, and is probably one of the least intrusive solutions), but the fact is it's a significant amount of work that isn't going to happen unless someone volunteers to do it.
-mental
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:57:24 +0100, MenTaLguY <mental@...3...> wrote:
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 17:49 +0100, Thomas Worthington wrote:
What's so sacred about alt-mouse0 that it can't be mapped while alt-v can? Seriously, is there a big technical hitch with doing that?
As bulia said, the necessary code to change is scattered in many places in the codebase. I don't want to discourage anyone from adding e.g. an option to swap meta/alt in Inkscape (it seems like a reasonable idea to me, and is probably one of the least intrusive solutions), but the fact is it's a significant amount of work that isn't going to happen unless someone volunteers to do it.
Well, I might take a look at it; it sounds tedious but not hard, even in C++!
TW
On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 01:08 +0100, Thomas Worthington wrote:
Well, I might take a look at it; it sounds tedious but not hard, even in C++!
Okay, cool. If you can do the work incrementally, that'd be best. That way we can merge the individual bits that don't introduce regressions as we go and work out the issues with the remainder as time allows.
-mental
On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 08:52:24AM -0700, Ted Gould wrote:
- There is some Freedesktop spec that says Window Managers should only
use the meta modifier for their actions.
Can you point me at this spec?
- Somewhere there is a spec that allows a window manager hint to be set
by applications to say "I'd really like Alt, please!!!"
I recall suggesting this as an addition to xdg-utils a while back; I don't know what the implementation status of this is, though.
Bryce
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 12:58 -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:
On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 08:52:24AM -0700, Ted Gould wrote:
- There is some Freedesktop spec that says Window Managers should only
use the meta modifier for their actions.
Can you point me at this spec?
I'm sorry, perhaps I was unclear. What I was trying to say is that a solution would be to have a spec -- I don't know of one that exists today.
--Ted
Ted Gould wrote:
Hello all,
In the Inkscape project we're constantly butting up against the problem where there simply aren't enough modifiers for everything we'd like to implement. This means for most of our tools there is a constant battle to figure out how we can fit everything into Alt, Ctrl and Shift. We manage. But, many window managers are using alt click to drag windows which takes 1/3 of our options away.
There are lots of solutions to this, I'm curious which way makes sense to people.
- Applications could start using the "Meta" key. I don't like this
because it seems to be something that is rather machine specific. I don't think applications should be using this modifier.
- There is some Freedesktop spec that says Window Managers should only
use the meta modifier for their actions.
- Somewhere there is a spec that allows a window manager hint to be set
by applications to say "I'd really like Alt, please!!!"
- Some users don't get functionality out of some apps unless they
reconfigure the apps or their desktop.
My personal favorite here is "2" -- I think that the Meta key could be turned into the "desktop" key where other desktop actions could be assigned to it also.
I think that it might be worth mentioning that the OS knows which key you press. That is, a standard 101 key AT keyboard (genuine IBM here -- they can have my click keyboard when they pry it from my cold fingers. :0D) has two Shift, Ctrl, & Alt and the OS can tell which one you press. IIUC, this information is passed on to X11 so it knows as well.
So, the standard setup would be to assign Meta to Alt-Left or Alt-Right.
Pinball games use Ctrl-Left and Ctrl-Right for the flippers so these are probably detectable separately as well.
IIUC, you can also use the Space Bar to modify the function keys.
Some sources say that SpaceBar+Alt is the correct combination for Meta. IIRC, Meta behaves a little differently: it is always persistent -- stays on till you press the next key or Esc to cancel it.
participants (6)
-
Bryce Harrington -
bulia byak -
James Richard Tyrer -
MenTaLguY -
Ted Gould -
Thomas Worthington