Re: [Inkscape-devel] inkscape.org update needs [text]
Chris,
I wanted to make a comment about the text shown in the mockup there.
This part:
"which runs on Windows, Mac OS X and Linux"
Quite besides putting your fellow FOSS project last in a list of
supported operating systems, especially since many distros package and
release Inkscape ready to install and windows and macosx don't.
It's quite simply a question of popularity. The list of operating systems goes by general OS popularity - and quite reasonably too. Linux users will expect it to go in that order, whereas if you put Linux first, I think many Windows and OS X users would be put off it as "a Linux thing" that just happens to have been loosely ported to Windows/OS X.
Yes true order is right.
But worse is the confusion of "Linux". Does this sentence mean that
Inkscape will work on Android? Will it work on my TiVo or my Home brew
Wii? It is nonsense to claim to run on Linux when linux is a kernel
which can't run Inkscape in most cases.
I disagree very strongly with your case here. "Linux" is a generally recognised family of operating systems. In the lingua franca, "Linux" means these operating systems, not the kernel as a technical definition of Linux may be. And there isn't really any way I think it can be improved without it becoming too verbose (frankly I think even one word more in each of the places where Linux is mentioned would be too verbose, the brevity of "Windows", "Mac OS X" and "Linux" is important, and on your later points a group of three is in a literary manner far more pleasing than four or five items would be). I don't believe anyone will get confused and expect it to run on any mobile browsers. The downloads page will also have OS-sniffing and so present the most likely of the three options first, including highlighting the relevant option (e.g. Mac OS X 10.4 users will get that button glowing and the others slightly faded, Ubuntu users will get a sentence on how to get it in Ubuntu highlighted in some way).
It would be more clear and honest to say "which runs on Gnome/Linux" or
"FreeDesktop Linux" or just "Fedora, Debian and other awesome Free
Desktops". If you start putting in some particular flavours of Linux then you get bickering about which ones get included.
And if you're of the opinion that Android and such aren't marketed as
Linux and there for won't be confusing. Think about the way Ubuntu isn't
marketed as Linux either (because it isn't true and because it's not
helpful to scare away new users), will we have "which runs on Linux and
Ubuntu" to account for that? No. Ubuntu is still recognised as Linux. And putting this in combination with highlighting the relevant information on the download page, I don't think it'll be an issue.
Some people are adopting GNU/Linux as the operating system. Free Desktops include and not limited to Gnome, KDE, Xfce, and others.
The lack of consideration that Linux distros are given by the Inkscape
website is currently frustrating. The install for Windows and Mac is
easy, but we don't have a single deb, apt link, or ppa and instead ask
users to compile. Please consider rectifying and please start with the
text on the front page. You're right about the need for more information on how to source Inkscape; I don't believe you're at all right about starting with the text on the front page. What it says is correct. The modifications only need to take place on the download page.
So very true and easy to do.
Regards, Leo Jackson
On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 15:47 -0800, Leo Jackson wrote:
You're right about the need for more information on how to source Inkscape; I don't believe you're at all right about starting with the text on the front page. What it says is correct. The modifications only need to take place on the download page.
This is terrible! what you ask is that user count be taken as more important than community. Which is sad.
The problem with the rest of your disagreement is that while they may be what everyone thinks, it's horrible marketing and it's hurting free software adoption. There just isn't any thought in how to present or help with adoption so we end up hurting our users with it.
Ubuntu isn't recognized as Linux by a significant set of Ubuntu users. It's only recognized as Linux by Linux recognizing people. you may be under the misunderstanding that Linux is recognised because you yourself recognise it. :-(
Martin,
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 15:47 -0800, Leo Jackson wrote:
You're right about the need for more information on how to source Inkscape; I don't believe you're at all right about starting with the text on the front page. What it says is correct. The modifications only need to take place on the download page.
This is terrible! what you ask is that user count be taken as more important than community. Which is sad.
The point of the front page of the website is to focus on what will help people - in particular new users - the most. The fact that some people may like Linux more than Windows shouldn't come into it at all; it should be almost purely marketing. And I think the largest sample set of the people who we are appealing to are using Windows. (I'd like usage statistics for Inkscape and the website, but we don't have them, so this is merely belief; I'm not certain of the actual facts.) I don't care whether Linux may be seen as "community". When something is put as "Windows, Mac OS X and Linux" I see that as the normal way of putting it. "Linux, Windows and Mac OS X" would grab attention - in most people in a negative way. Ordering based on market share is simply the sensible way to do it.
The problem with the rest of your disagreement is that while they may be what everyone thinks, it's horrible marketing and it's hurting free software adoption. There just isn't any thought in how to present or help with adoption so we end up hurting our users with it.
How is it horrible marketing? How does it hurt free software adoption? My argument was that it would be likely to *detract* from Inkscape, and make people *less* likely to do it. Simply because Linux is first won't make people want to try Linux, whereas having Linux first may well make Windows users (maybe some OS X users too) *not* try Inkscape.
Ubuntu isn't recognized as Linux by a significant set of Ubuntu users.
It's only recognized as Linux by Linux recognizing people. you may be under the misunderstanding that Linux is recognised because you yourself recognise it. :-(
The simple fact is that whether Ubuntu is recognised as Linux or not, it would be inaccurate and misleading to mention it by itself (to say nothing of reducing the literary value of the sentence significantly), while putting "GNU/Linux Free Desktops" in that sentence is simply cloying (and wouldn't help with the issue anyway - it would just confuse most people). If we mention operating systems in there at all (which I think we should), "Windows, Mac OS X and Linux" is, I believe, approximately the only decent way of putting it.
-- Chris
Simply put Martin, we can't please everyone. sorry, there's bound to be people visiting the site trying to learn about the basics, the goal of this site is to keep it basic I prefer to use the term KISS (Keep it simple stupid) for stupid people like me, We need to dumb it down just enough to draw people in to use it and try it. as for the different unix systems, on the downloads page would you like us to list it by country that the developer is in? or by the specific hardware it uses or what? because there are 1000's of unix flavors listed here http://lwn.net/Distributions/ and if we listed all the distributions, I'm sure we'd be leaving a few out. However I do agree with your point, maybe we should post a link a page located in our docs showing how to install inkscape on the various flavors? unfortunately with all advertising you can't list everything... does 31 flavors show you 31 flavors on their sign? no that would be too crowded. However I do have a task for you if you're Interested Martin we would love to have you head up the documentation page for this as soon as we complete the standards for the docs... would you be interested? Sorry if this offends, it's not meant to be.... but when we're complaining over "small fish" when we should be concerned about the bigger fish overall such as finishing the site as a whole and making it flow in general.... but as always feedback is great.... and we'll defiantly take your input into consideration, just realize it is just that all input will be taken into consideration and weighed, and as always we can't please everyone so not everything everyone wants will be on the website otherwise it will end up a giant mess like it currently is... regards, Ian On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Chris Morgan <chris.morganiser@...400...>wrote:
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 15:47 -0800, Leo Jackson wrote:
You're right about the need for more information on how to source Inkscape; I don't believe you're at all right about starting with the text on the front page. What it says is correct. The modifications only need to take place on the download page.
This is terrible! what you ask is that user count be taken as more important than community. Which is sad.
The point of the front page of the website is to focus on what will help people - in particular new users - the most. The fact that some people may like Linux more than Windows shouldn't come into it at all; it should be almost purely marketing. And I think the largest sample set of the people who we are appealing to are using Windows. (I'd like usage statistics for Inkscape and the website, but we don't have them, so this is merely belief; I'm not certain of the actual facts.) I don't care whether Linux may be seen as "community". When something is put as "Windows, Mac OS X and Linux" I see that as the normal way of putting it. "Linux, Windows and Mac OS X" would grab attention - in most people in a negative way. Ordering based on market share is simply the sensible way to do it.
The problem with the rest of your disagreement is that while they may be what everyone thinks, it's horrible marketing and it's hurting free software adoption. There just isn't any thought in how to present or help with adoption so we end up hurting our users with it.
How is it horrible marketing? How does it hurt free software adoption? My argument was that it would be likely to *detract* from Inkscape, and make people *less* likely to do it. Simply because Linux is first won't make people want to try Linux, whereas having Linux first may well make Windows users (maybe some OS X users too) *not* try Inkscape.
Ubuntu isn't recognized as Linux by a significant set of Ubuntu users.
It's only recognized as Linux by Linux recognizing people. you may be under the misunderstanding that Linux is recognised because you yourself recognise it. :-(
The simple fact is that whether Ubuntu is recognised as Linux or not, it would be inaccurate and misleading to mention it by itself (to say nothing of reducing the literary value of the sentence significantly), while putting "GNU/Linux Free Desktops" in that sentence is simply cloying (and wouldn't help with the issue anyway - it would just confuse most people). If we mention operating systems in there at all (which I think we should), "Windows, Mac OS X and Linux" is, I believe, approximately the only decent way of putting it.
-- Chris
Learn how Oracle Real Application Clusters (RAC) One Node allows customers to consolidate database storage, standardize their database environment, and, should the need arise, upgrade to a full multi-node Oracle RAC database without downtime or disruption http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdevnl _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 22:53 -0800, Ian Caldwell wrote:
just realize it is just that all input will be taken into consideration and weighed, and as always we can't please everyone so not everything everyone wants will be on the website otherwise it will end up a giant mess like it currently is...
I don't mean to be a bore, but what Chris is advocating for is a lie over a preference. Linux and Gnu/Linux are useless terms, but perhaps we can do something more clever than the standard inconsiderate marketing that slaps Linux at the end of a list in the hopes of sating a huge and complex community with a meaningless term.
"Windows, Mac and Linux [including $detected_distro]"
Add a small bit of text at the end there if you see a distro mentioned in the browser ident. At least that wouldn't be totally insulting and not too hard to do if you're already adding in ident detection for the download page.
Martin,
I think that would be lie wouldn't it?, what if we don't support that distro or we don't package for that distro?
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:49 AM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 22:53 -0800, Ian Caldwell wrote:
just realize it is just that all input will be taken into consideration and weighed, and as always we can't please everyone so not everything everyone wants will be on the website otherwise it will end up a giant mess like it currently is...
I don't mean to be a bore, but what Chris is advocating for is a lie over a preference. Linux and Gnu/Linux are useless terms, but perhaps we can do something more clever than the standard inconsiderate marketing that slaps Linux at the end of a list in the hopes of sating a huge and complex community with a meaningless term.
"Windows, Mac and Linux [including $detected_distro]"
Add a small bit of text at the end there if you see a distro mentioned in the browser ident. At least that wouldn't be totally insulting and not too hard to do if you're already adding in ident detection for the download page.
Martin,
On Thu, 2010-12-30 at 08:20 -0800, Ian Caldwell wrote:
I think that would be lie wouldn't it?, what if we don't support that distro or we don't package for that distro?
But you would if it was in your downloads list, wouldn't you?
Then at least you'd have a case for being able to say that inclusion is a matter of packaging support.
Martin,
Holy war aside, I like Thunderbird's approach: http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/thunderbird/
(Make a best-guess based on UA string, present a large 'download' button based on that guess and also put a link for 'other systems' below.)
Regarding the holy war: The site should promote Inkscape, not any particular OS (or religion for that matter - in this discussion they seem to be the same ;). As a linux user, the "Windows, Mac and Linux" list is perfectly acceptable to me.
0.02, Chris
+10 for a Thunderbird-style approach. Eliminate the need for 99% (?) of users to make difficult choices without reducing options.
Possibly get it wrong for the occasional user who's messed with their UA string or is using an unusual Linux distro, but honestly, they should expect that. And it's not like we'd be using the UA to prescribe medication or anything really dangerous.
- Bryan
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 09:37, Chris Mohler <cr33dog@...400...> wrote:
Holy war aside, I like Thunderbird's approach: http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/thunderbird/
(Make a best-guess based on UA string, present a large 'download' button based on that guess and also put a link for 'other systems' below.)
Regarding the holy war: The site should promote Inkscape, not any particular OS (or religion for that matter - in this discussion they seem to be the same ;). As a linux user, the "Windows, Mac and Linux" list is perfectly acceptable to me.
0.02, Chris
Learn how Oracle Real Application Clusters (RAC) One Node allows customers to consolidate database storage, standardize their database environment, and, should the need arise, upgrade to a full multi-node Oracle RAC database without downtime or disruption http://p.sf.net/sfu/oracle-sfdevnl _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
One could just as easily make the claim for Windows.
Will it run on NT? Windows CE? Windows Mobile 7?
I think the average consumer is bright enough to know if they are looking to run Inkscape the page claims are for modern, desktop OSs.
-Rob A>
On 12/29/10, Chris Morgan <chris.morganiser@...400...> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 15:47 -0800, Leo Jackson wrote:
You're right about the need for more information on how to source Inkscape; I don't believe you're at all right about starting with the text on the front page. What it says is correct. The modifications only need to take place on the download page.
This is terrible! what you ask is that user count be taken as more important than community. Which is sad.
The point of the front page of the website is to focus on what will help people - in particular new users - the most. The fact that some people may like Linux more than Windows shouldn't come into it at all; it should be almost purely marketing. And I think the largest sample set of the people who we are appealing to are using Windows. (I'd like usage statistics for Inkscape and the website, but we don't have them, so this is merely belief; I'm not certain of the actual facts.) I don't care whether Linux may be seen as "community". When something is put as "Windows, Mac OS X and Linux" I see that as the normal way of putting it. "Linux, Windows and Mac OS X" would grab attention - in most people in a negative way. Ordering based on market share is simply the sensible way to do it.
The problem with the rest of your disagreement is that while they may be what everyone thinks, it's horrible marketing and it's hurting free software adoption. There just isn't any thought in how to present or help with adoption so we end up hurting our users with it.
How is it horrible marketing? How does it hurt free software adoption? My argument was that it would be likely to *detract* from Inkscape, and make people *less* likely to do it. Simply because Linux is first won't make people want to try Linux, whereas having Linux first may well make Windows users (maybe some OS X users too) *not* try Inkscape.
Ubuntu isn't recognized as Linux by a significant set of Ubuntu users.
It's only recognized as Linux by Linux recognizing people. you may be under the misunderstanding that Linux is recognised because you yourself recognise it. :-(
The simple fact is that whether Ubuntu is recognised as Linux or not, it would be inaccurate and misleading to mention it by itself (to say nothing of reducing the literary value of the sentence significantly), while putting "GNU/Linux Free Desktops" in that sentence is simply cloying (and wouldn't help with the issue anyway - it would just confuse most people). If we mention operating systems in there at all (which I think we should), "Windows, Mac OS X and Linux" is, I believe, approximately the only decent way of putting it.
-- Chris
participants (7)
-
Bryan Hoyt | Brush Technology -
Chris Mohler -
Chris Morgan -
Ian Caldwell -
Leo Jackson -
Martin Owens -
Rob Antonishen