Hi All!
I'm in the process of getting together a blueprint for a fillet tool that I'm drafting: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/SpecFilletChamfer. I'd love to get some discussion and feedback going. I've got a couple of questions that I'd like to discuss at the bottom, and I'd like to hear people's feedback.
Thanks Joel
On Feb 5, 2008 1:33 PM, Joel Holdsworth <joel@...1709...> wrote:
Hi All!
I'm in the process of getting together a blueprint for a fillet tool that I'm drafting: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/SpecFilletChamfer. I'd love to get some discussion and feedback going. I've got a couple of questions that I'd like to discuss at the bottom, and I'd like to hear people's feedback.
My question is, does this deserve to be a tool? Is this a so much needed operation as to be on the main toolbar? I can see it will be handy to do this via a tool, with interactive radius rounding. But then, it can be fitted into Node tool as well, and would probably be even handier there because it's a typical node editing operation. Or, it can be done as a command, or LPE, or some combination. So why a tool?
bulia byak wrote:
On Feb 5, 2008 1:33 PM, Joel Holdsworth <joel@...1709...> wrote:
Hi All!
I'm in the process of getting together a blueprint for a fillet tool that I'm drafting: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/SpecFilletChamfer. I'd love to get some discussion and feedback going. I've got a couple of questions that I'd like to discuss at the bottom, and I'd like to hear people's feedback.
My question is, does this deserve to be a tool? Is this a so much needed operation as to be on the main toolbar? I can see it will be handy to do this via a tool, with interactive radius rounding. But then, it can be fitted into Node tool as well, and would probably be even handier there because it's a typical node editing operation. Or, it can be done as a command, or LPE, or some combination. So why a tool?
As with so many other non-destructive path modifications we'd like to do, I personally think it would be best to have it as a Live Path Effect. This is another instance where it would be great to have some LPE parameters be editable via on-canvas handles (in the node tool). This way you have the right amount of on-canvas interactivity for our visual users and for the technical users we still have the parameter fields in the LPE dialog to do it numerically.
-Josh
On Feb 5, 2008 4:19 PM, Josh Andler <scislac@...400...> wrote:
As with so many other non-destructive path modifications we'd like to do, I personally think it would be best to have it as a Live Path Effect. This is another instance where it would be great to have some LPE parameters be editable via on-canvas handles (in the node tool). This way you have the right amount of on-canvas interactivity for our visual users and for the technical users we still have the parameter fields in the LPE dialog to do it numerically.
I thought about it, but the problem is that often, you only want some of the corners rounded but not all. LPE has no ways currently, AFAIK, to only apply to some nodes and not others. Besides it will be an extra trouble to keep track of this when you edit the path adding/deleting nodes.
I thought about it, but the problem is that often, you only want some of the corners rounded but not all. LPE has no ways currently, AFAIK, to only apply to some nodes and not others. Besides it will be an extra trouble to keep track of this when you edit the path adding/deleting nodes.
Hello, Working on the envelope LPE, we have to keep track of some special nodes of the deforming envelope (the four original corners). An idea is to create a new type of node. This could be used in that case to use the Live Path Effect power for this tool.
Steren
Depending on how it's implemented, filleting might close bug 171166, which requests the ability to apply different rounding radii to the corners of a rectangle...
On Feb 5, 2008 2:17 PM, Steren Giannini <steren.giannini@...1819...> wrote:
I thought about it, but the problem is that often, you only want some of the corners rounded but not all. LPE has no ways currently, AFAIK, to only apply to some nodes and not others. Besides it will be an extra trouble to keep track of this when you edit the path adding/deleting nodes.
Hello, Working on the envelope LPE, we have to keep track of some special nodes of the deforming envelope (the four original corners). An idea is to create a new type of node. This could be used in that case to use the Live Path Effect power for this tool.
Steren
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I thought about it, but the problem is that often, you only want some of the corners rounded but not all.
Yes, I agree - this is the main reason I'm suggesting that we don't do this with an LPE.
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 16:42 -0500, bulia byak wrote:
On Feb 5, 2008 4:19 PM, Josh Andler <scislac@...400...> wrote:
As with so many other non-destructive path modifications we'd like to do, I personally think it would be best to have it as a Live Path Effect. This is another instance where it would be great to have some LPE parameters be editable via on-canvas handles (in the node tool). This way you have the right amount of on-canvas interactivity for our visual users and for the technical users we still have the parameter fields in the LPE dialog to do it numerically.
I thought about it, but the problem is that often, you only want some of the corners rounded but not all. LPE has no ways currently, AFAIK, to only apply to some nodes and not others. Besides it will be an extra trouble to keep track of this when you edit the path adding/deleting nodes.
Joel Holdsworth wrote:
I thought about it, but the problem is that often, you only want some of the corners rounded but not all.
Yes, I agree - this is the main reason I'm suggesting that we don't do this with an LPE.
We'll have to ask Johan if it will be possible, but in some of our original discussions on jabber about the LPE system we entertained ideas that LPE could be used as an internal mechanism for creating new tools (and perhaps even unifying some of the old tools).
Aaron
My question is, does this deserve to be a tool? Is this a so much needed operation as to be on the main toolbar? I can see it will be handy to do this via a tool, with interactive radius rounding.
Yes, I agree! My original suggestion was to make it a standard tool, but to hide it away in one of the menus rather than having it in the main toolbox. You could have an additional link to this tool in the Node-Edit's context toolbar.
But then, it can be fitted into Node tool as well, and would probably be even handier there because it's a typical node editing operation.
I see where you're going with that - I'm just worried that the node edit tool will become a dancing-elephant-cow-pig; the tool that has too many features! Also, I suspect that by the time we implement a rich set of features, the number of options will overflow the space on the node-edit context toolbar.
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 15:58 -0500, bulia byak wrote:
On Feb 5, 2008 1:33 PM, Joel Holdsworth <joel@...1709...> wrote:
Hi All!
I'm in the process of getting together a blueprint for a fillet tool that I'm drafting: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/SpecFilletChamfer. I'd love to get some discussion and feedback going. I've got a couple of questions that I'd like to discuss at the bottom, and I'd like to hear people's feedback.
My question is, does this deserve to be a tool? Is this a so much needed operation as to be on the main toolbar? I can see it will be handy to do this via a tool, with interactive radius rounding. But then, it can be fitted into Node tool as well, and would probably be even handier there because it's a typical node editing operation. Or, it can be done as a command, or LPE, or some combination. So why a tool?
On Feb 5, 2008 7:44 PM, Joel Holdsworth <joel@...1709...> > > But
then, it can be fitted into Node tool as well, and would probably be even handier there because it's a typical node editing operation.
I see where you're going with that - I'm just worried that the node edit tool will become a dancing-elephant-cow-pig; the tool that has too many features! Also, I suspect that by the time we implement a rich set of features, the number of options will overflow the space on the node-edit context toolbar.
So we seem to be at a crossroads right now. With lots of new functionality on the horizon, we need to decide on the general approach we prefer: either multiply tools but leave each tool narrowly focused; or, limit the number of tools but broaden their capabilities, inventing some way to fit it all into the controls bar (e.g. by making it two-line when necessary? or adding tool mode switches that show/hide some controls, kinda like is done in Tweak tool?)
What do others think?
On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 16:42:33 -0400, "bulia byak" <buliabyak@...400...> wrote:
So we seem to be at a crossroads right now. With lots of new functionality on the horizon, we need to decide on the general approach we prefer: either multiply tools but leave each tool narrowly focused; or, limit the number of tools but broaden their capabilities, inventing some way to fit it all into the controls bar (e.g. by making it two-line when necessary? or adding tool mode switches that show/hide some controls, kinda like is done in Tweak tool?)
What do others think?
My feeling is that we'll need to go the tweak tool route: a "major tool" selected in the side toolbar, and a "minor tool" selected from the secondary toolbar.
-mental
My feeling is that we'll need to go the tweak tool route: a "major tool" selected in the side toolbar, and a "minor tool" selected from the secondary toolbar.
Maybe that would be ok. Actually it could be quite a nice workflow: e.g Select 4 nodes with the node edit tool, click fillet, context toolbar shows fillet controls allowing radius to be selected numerically etc., and at the same time a set of handles on thin-blue-line-previews of the fillets allowing the radius to be chosen interactively.
Then what? I suppose we could put a button marked "Apply" on the toolbar to finalise the geometry change caused by the tool. And another button marked "Cancel" that will back out to normal node editing. So in this scheme, the fillet toolbar would become a sort of modal sub-bar.
Any thoughts on that? Joel
On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 13:18 -0800, MenTaLguY wrote:
On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 16:42:33 -0400, "bulia byak" <buliabyak@...400...> wrote:
So we seem to be at a crossroads right now. With lots of new functionality on the horizon, we need to decide on the general approach we prefer: either multiply tools but leave each tool narrowly focused; or, limit the number of tools but broaden their capabilities, inventing some way to fit it all into the controls bar (e.g. by making it two-line when necessary? or adding tool mode switches that show/hide some controls, kinda like is done in Tweak tool?)
What do others think?
My feeling is that we'll need to go the tweak tool route: a "major tool" selected in the side toolbar, and a "minor tool" selected from the secondary toolbar.
-mental
On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:26:08 +0000, Joel Holdsworth <joel@...1709...> wrote:
Then what? I suppose we could put a button marked "Apply" on the toolbar to finalise the geometry change caused by the tool. And another button marked "Cancel" that will back out to normal node editing. So in this scheme, the fillet toolbar would become a sort of modal sub-bar.
Rather than having "Apply" and "Cancel", just let the user toggle in and out of fillet mode; any changes made in fillet mode are permanent like any other changes. In HIG terms, "Apply/Cancel" is usually deprecated over live update/editing anyway.
If the user wants to cancel their changes and undo, recent versions of Inkscape support a piece of advanced functionality called "undo" anyway. :)
-mental
Rather than having "Apply" and "Cancel", just let the user toggle in and out of fillet mode; any changes made in fillet mode are permanent like any other changes. In HIG terms, "Apply/Cancel" is usually deprecated over live update/editing anyway.
If the user wants to cancel their changes and undo, recent versions of Inkscape support a piece of advanced functionality called "undo" anyway. :)
Good point, that sounds sensible. I'll add it to my spec.
On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 14:48 -0800, MenTaLguY wrote:
On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:26:08 +0000, Joel Holdsworth <joel@...1709...> wrote:
Then what? I suppose we could put a button marked "Apply" on the toolbar to finalise the geometry change caused by the tool. And another button marked "Cancel" that will back out to normal node editing. So in this scheme, the fillet toolbar would become a sort of modal sub-bar.
Rather than having "Apply" and "Cancel", just let the user toggle in and out of fillet mode; any changes made in fillet mode are permanent like any other changes. In HIG terms, "Apply/Cancel" is usually deprecated over live update/editing anyway.
If the user wants to cancel their changes and undo, recent versions of Inkscape support a piece of advanced functionality called "undo" anyway. :)
-mental
On Feb 6, 2008 6:48 PM, MenTaLguY <mental@...3...> wrote:
Rather than having "Apply" and "Cancel", just let the user toggle in and out of fillet mode; any changes made in fillet mode are permanent like any other changes. In HIG terms, "Apply/Cancel" is usually deprecated over live update/editing anyway.
Yes, the only problem being how to combine numeric radius specification with the live update - and see my other mail just sent for an idea of how this can be done via snapping.
- the toolbar in fillet mode contains a "Snap at:" spinbutton with
units
I don't know why, but this seems a little odd to me, although the end result would be ok. I still like the idea of being able to type in a numberical value, and all my fillet circle helpers change to reflect the new value. (I'm not proposing to allow the user to do more than one different radius in a single zap of this tool.)
I'm now thinking of a modal toolbar, that you can toggle in and out of with the fillet-button. See this link:
http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/SpecFilletChamfer#User_Interface
How would that be?
We definitely are going to need a special toolbar for filleting if we're going to support chamfers etc. We won't have enough space to fit all the functionality in without crowding the normal node-edit toolbar.
On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 19:06 -0400, bulia byak wrote:
On Feb 6, 2008 6:48 PM, MenTaLguY <mental@...3...> wrote:
Rather than having "Apply" and "Cancel", just let the user toggle in and out of fillet mode; any changes made in fillet mode are permanent like any other changes. In HIG terms, "Apply/Cancel" is usually deprecated over live update/editing anyway.
Yes, the only problem being how to combine numeric radius specification with the live update - and see my other mail just sent for an idea of how this can be done via snapping.
On Feb 6, 2008 6:26 PM, Joel Holdsworth <joel@...1709...> wrote:
Maybe that would be ok. Actually it could be quite a nice workflow: e.g Select 4 nodes with the node edit tool, click fillet, context toolbar shows fillet controls allowing radius to be selected numerically etc., and at the same time a set of handles on thin-blue-line-previews of the fillets allowing the radius to be chosen interactively.
Then what? I suppose we could put a button marked "Apply" on the toolbar to finalise the geometry change caused by the tool. And another button marked "Cancel" that will back out to normal node editing. So in this scheme, the fillet toolbar would become a sort of modal sub-bar.
No, any apply/cancel buttons on the toolbar are out of the question. I propose the following fully interactive approach:
- the toolbar in fillet mode contains a "Snap at:" spinbutton with units
- the current snap-at value is visualized as a helper circle of that radius filleting each selected node; if it is 0 (default) no helper circle is drawn
- the filleting is done by dragging away from any of the selected nodes, interactively changing the radius (all other selected nodes get filleted by the same radius), and it will snap to the predefined snap-at circle when close to it.
This way, you can get both free interactive filleting and easily fillet by the specified radius, all without any unnatural modalness or buttons on the toolbar.
Hi!
Looks very interesting and useful, and quite similar to the fillet tool for corel draw described here: http://www.oberonplace.com/products/curveworks/index.htm
In the wiki, you ask: "Does anyone have any thoughts about a good place to put this rather specialist tool in the UI? I worry that this tool while useful would only be useful occasionally, and would clutter the toolbox unhelpfully. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?" Well my suggestion is that it should be placed in the context menu of the node editing tool, as a sub-tool, since it is directly related to node and path editing.
Molumen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Holdsworth" <joel@...1709...> To: "Inkscape Devel List" inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Fillet Tool Blueprint Discussion
Hi All!
I'm in the process of getting together a blueprint for a fillet tool that I'm drafting: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/SpecFilletChamfer. I'd love to get some discussion and feedback going. I've got a couple of questions that I'd like to discuss at the bottom, and I'd like to hear people's feedback.
Thanks Joel
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Looks very interesting and useful, and quite similar to the fillet tool for corel draw described here: http://www.oberonplace.com/products/curveworks/index.htm
That's a really cool link - shame it's not open source. I've added it to the wiki
Well my suggestion is that it should be placed in the context menu of the node editing tool, as a sub-tool, since it is directly related to node and path editing.
I'm kinda going down that line of thinking myself. With a sub-tool available within node-edit, or accessible directly through the Path menu.
Joel
On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 00:13 +0100, momo@...1386... wrote:
Hi!
Looks very interesting and useful, and quite similar to the fillet tool for corel draw described here: http://www.oberonplace.com/products/curveworks/index.htm
In the wiki, you ask: "Does anyone have any thoughts about a good place to put this rather specialist tool in the UI? I worry that this tool while useful would only be useful occasionally, and would clutter the toolbox unhelpfully. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?" Well my suggestion is that it should be placed in the context menu of the node editing tool, as a sub-tool, since it is directly related to node and path editing.
Molumen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Holdsworth" <joel@...1709...> To: "Inkscape Devel List" inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Fillet Tool Blueprint Discussion
Hi All!
I'm in the process of getting together a blueprint for a fillet tool that I'm drafting: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/SpecFilletChamfer. I'd love to get some discussion and feedback going. I've got a couple of questions that I'd like to discuss at the bottom, and I'd like to hear people's feedback.
Thanks Joel
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
A newbie's perspective: maybe such a submenu could contain 'node editing', 'fillet/chamfer', and 'node sculpting', since they are all about 'shape editing' rather than 'shape creation'.
Users would really like the toolbar to be as compact as possible ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/168648 )
-Tom On Feb 5, 2008 3:48 PM, Joel Holdsworth <joel@...1709...> wrote:
Looks very interesting and useful, and quite similar to the fillet tool for corel draw described here: http://www.oberonplace.com/products/curveworks/index.htm
That's a really cool link - shame it's not open source. I've added it to the wiki
Well my suggestion is that it should be placed in the context menu of the node editing tool, as a sub-tool, since it is directly related to node and path editing.
I'm kinda going down that line of thinking myself. With a sub-tool available within node-edit, or accessible directly through the Path menu.
Joel
On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 00:13 +0100, momo@...1386... wrote:
Hi!
Looks very interesting and useful, and quite similar to the fillet tool for corel draw described here: http://www.oberonplace.com/products/curveworks/index.htm
In the wiki, you ask: "Does anyone have any thoughts about a good place to put this rather specialist tool in the UI? I worry that this tool while useful would only be useful occasionally, and would clutter the toolbox unhelpfully. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?" Well my suggestion is that it should be placed in the context menu of the node editing tool, as a sub-tool, since it is directly related to node and path editing.
Molumen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Holdsworth" <joel@...1709...> To: "Inkscape Devel List" inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Fillet Tool Blueprint Discussion
Hi All!
I'm in the process of getting together a blueprint for a fillet tool that I'm drafting: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/SpecFilletChamfer. I'd love to get some discussion and feedback going. I've got a couple of questions that I'd like to discuss at the bottom, and I'd like to hear people's feedback.
Thanks Joel
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I filed an RFE asking for these about 3 years ago :D
https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/170149
Theres an animated gif attached to that which shows how these are done in 3d studio, select the nodes, click the button, and drag, and it interactively increases/decreases.
On 2/6/08, Tom Davidson <tjd@...1007...> wrote:
A newbie's perspective: maybe such a submenu could contain 'node editing', 'fillet/chamfer', and 'node sculpting', since they are all about 'shape editing' rather than 'shape creation'.
Users would really like the toolbar to be as compact as possible ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/168648 )
-Tom On Feb 5, 2008 3:48 PM, Joel Holdsworth <joel@...1709...> wrote:
Looks very interesting and useful, and quite similar to the fillet tool for corel draw described here: http://www.oberonplace.com/products/curveworks/index.htm
That's a really cool link - shame it's not open source. I've added it to the wiki
Well my suggestion is that it should be placed in the context menu of
the
node editing tool, as a sub-tool, since it is directly related to node
and
path editing.
I'm kinda going down that line of thinking myself. With a sub-tool available within node-edit, or accessible directly through the Path menu.
Joel
On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 00:13 +0100, momo@...1386... wrote:
Hi!
Looks very interesting and useful, and quite similar to the fillet
tool for
corel draw described here: http://www.oberonplace.com/products/curveworks/index.htm
In the wiki, you ask: "Does anyone have any thoughts about a good
place to
put this rather specialist tool in the UI? I worry that this tool
while
useful would only be useful occasionally, and would clutter the
toolbox
unhelpfully. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?" Well my suggestion is that it should be placed in the context menu of
the
node editing tool, as a sub-tool, since it is directly related to node
and
path editing.
Molumen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Holdsworth" <joel@...1709...> To: "Inkscape Devel List" inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Fillet Tool Blueprint Discussion
Hi All!
I'm in the process of getting together a blueprint for a fillet tool that I'm drafting: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/SpecFilletChamfer. I'd love
to
get some discussion and feedback going. I've got a couple of
questions
that I'd like to discuss at the bottom, and I'd like to hear
people's
feedback.
Thanks Joel
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Duh--sorry, I thought that was a different user. Got to learn to think before posting...
participants (9)
-
unknown＠example.com -
Aaron Spike -
bulia byak -
Joel Holdsworth -
john cliff -
Josh Andler -
MenTaLguY -
Steren Giannini -
Tom Davidson