We need to rethink this approach to warning about unloaded extensions. It seems to be causing a LOT of confusion amongst our user community, of which the below is representative.
At the very least the dialog needs some text explaining the implications for the users so they don't jump to the conclusion that Inkscape is broken.
----- Forwarded message from "Robert C. Smith" <rcsthrax@...106...> ----- Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:51:27 -0700 From: "Robert C. Smith" <rcsthrax@...106...> Reply-To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] autopackage To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net
"One or more extensions failed to load The failed extensions have been skipped. Inkscape will continue to run normally but those extensions will be unavailable."
Wayne...I plan to run dual-boot but had problems loading Mandrake which I am investigating. The above shows that the Windows load of Inkscape HAS PROBLEMS and that this isn't just an open-source distribution issue. I would appreciate that this fact be recognized as discussion proceeds. I am new to open-source except for the Gimp. What is an "extension?" What are the implications of lacking an extension? What is new in .41 which would provoke this error message? (The situation is independent of service packs.) ....RCs
On 9 Mar 2005 at 9:37, wayne wrote:
On Wednesday 09 March 2005 07:03 am, oisin feeley wrote:
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:10:46 -1000, wayne <iw@...131...> wrote:
Just installed inkscape 0.41 with autopackage. When I open it,
I
get a message saying that one or more extensions failed to
load.
I get that message too and it doesn't appear to affect running inkscape-0.41, so you may be able to discount it from your debugging. Examining the file ~/.inkscape/extension-errors.log
shows
the following.
Extension "Sketch Input" failed to load because a dependency was
not
met. Dependency:: type: executable location: path string: skconvert
Extension "Postscript Input" failed to load because a dependency
was
not met. Dependency:: type: extension location: path string: org.inkscape.input.sk
Extension "Postscript Input" failed to load because a dependency
was
not met. Dependency:: type: executable location: path string: pstoedit
Extension "AI Output" failed to load because a dependency was
not
met. Dependency:: type: executable location: path string: pstoedit Extension "EPS Input" failed to load because a dependency was
not
met. Dependency:: type: extension location: path string: org.inkscape.input.ps
Oisin
0.4.1 doesn't run at all after the "one or more extensions failed
to
load" error window. I end up with the command line error message about:
SCIM: im_module_init
free(): invalid pointer 0x9453670! free(): invalid pointer 0x9453650!
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
Wayne
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----- End forwarded message -----
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 mental@...3... wrote:
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:15:17 -0500 From: mental@...3... To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Inkscape-devel] extensions usability
We need to rethink this approach to warning about unloaded extensions. It seems to be causing a LOT of confusion amongst our user community, of which the below is representative.
Can it be reduced back to a Console Warning? At the moment there are not that many extensions and even so I'd much prefer to be warned at some other time like when I try to use functionality that is not currently avialalbe without the plugin.
At the very least the dialog needs some text explaining the implications for the users so they don't jump to the conclusion that Inkscape is broken.
I still believe it is a problem to be showing (non technical) users such distractions at startup at all.
Sincerely
Alan Horkan
Quoting Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...>:
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 mental@...3... wrote:
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:15:17 -0500 From: mental@...3... To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Inkscape-devel] extensions usability
We need to rethink this approach to warning about unloaded extensions. It seems to be causing a LOT of confusion amongst
our
user community, of which the below is representative.
Can it be reduced back to a Console Warning?
Last I heard on Win32, any console warnings result in a console window popping up that users sometimes try to close -- thereby rather ungracefully killing Inkscape.
(which is probably a sign that we need to reexamine console handling there ... didn't we have some sort of console dialog in the works?)
At the moment there are not that many extensions and even so I'd much prefer to be warned at some other time like when I try to use functionality that is not currently avialalbe without the plugin.
At the very least the dialog needs some text explaining the implications for the users so they don't jump to the conclusion that Inkscape is broken.
I still believe it is a problem to be showing (non technical) users such distractions at startup at all.
I'm rather inclined to agree...
-mental
We need to rethink this approach to warning about unloaded extensions. It seems to be causing a LOT of confusion amongst
our
user community, of which the below is representative.
Can it be reduced back to a Console Warning?
Last I heard on Win32, any console warnings result in a console window popping up that users sometimes try to close -- thereby rather ungracefully killing Inkscape.
(which is probably a sign that we need to reexamine console handling there ... didn't we have some sort of console dialog in the works?)
Since I seem to help a number of Win32 users, closing of a console is the number one source of inkscape "crashing". I think that people are ok with seeing warnings and such, but it's just habit to close unused windows or windows you're done with (which is what it becomes once you've read the message). So, a log window as opposed to the console window would be the best solution if possible.
At the moment there are not that many extensions and even so I'd much prefer to be warned at some other time like when I try to use functionality that is not currently avialalbe without the plugin.
At the very least the dialog needs some text explaining the implications for the users so they don't jump to the conclusion that Inkscape is broken.
I still believe it is a problem to be showing (non technical) users such distractions at startup at all.
I'm rather inclined to agree...
I'm inclined to agree as well... however, there are a number of other programs that are commercial that give warnings that you need to "check the checkbox" to not show again. Like most web browsers the first time they're used (you are submitting information to the internet... blah blah). The difference is the context. I think that at startup it comes across as Inkscape is broken, but as Alan said, if it were to warn at the time you try to use the functionality it would make much more sense. If I try to save as an Illustrator file, since it requires an extension, it should give the warning then... not long before that. (the perception changes to "oh, this is broken" not "Inkscape is broken")
-Josh
On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Joshua A. Andler wrote:
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:52:29 -0700 From: Joshua A. Andler <joshua@...533...> To: mental@...3..., 'Alan Horkan' <horkana@...44...> Cc: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: RE: [Inkscape-devel] extensions usability
We need to rethink this approach to warning about unloaded extensions. It seems to be causing a LOT of confusion amongst
our
user community, of which the below is representative.
Can it be reduced back to a Console Warning?
Last I heard on Win32, any console warnings result in a console window popping up that users sometimes try to close -- thereby rather ungracefully killing Inkscape.
(which is probably a sign that we need to reexamine console handling there ... didn't we have some sort of console dialog in the works?)
Since I seem to help a number of Win32 users, closing of a console is the number one source of inkscape "crashing". I think that people are ok
My intention was more that it would appear to Linux users on the console (if they started from the console) and perhaps windows users would need to run inkscape --verbose to get the information at the console.
with seeing warnings and such, but it's just habit to close unused windows or windows you're done with (which is what it becomes once you've read the message).
Or for most windows users before you have read the message :)
I'm inclined to agree as well... however, there are a number of other programs that are commercial that give warnings that you need to "check the checkbox" to not show again.
I happen to find that a really bad design, but maybe it is just me.
Like most web browsers the first time they're used (you are submitting information to the internet... blah blah). The difference is the context. I think that at startup it comes across as Inkscape is broken, but as Alan said, if it were to warn at the time you try to use the functionality it would make much more sense. If I try to save as an Illustrator file, since it requires an extension, it should give the warning then... not long before that. (the perception changes to "oh, this is broken" not "Inkscape is broken")
Doing things in context also reduces the amount of relevant information and explanation you need to supply. The downside is that Administartors will often fail to install and setup software correctly if the error is not staring them in the face (but users are not likely to blame Inkscape for that). You put it better than I could. Thanks.
Sincerely
Alan Horkan
On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 16:15 -0500, mental@...3... wrote:
We need to rethink this approach to warning about unloaded extensions. It seems to be causing a LOT of confusion amongst our user community, of which the below is representative.
At the very least the dialog needs some text explaining the implications for the users so they don't jump to the conclusion that Inkscape is broken.
Yes, I think the text needs to change -- but I think the dialog needs to stay.
I think that everyone likes the error log, which I think actually documents many of the problems. I think most of the complaints have been that the format is too technical -- which I can agree with. But I think that there are two types of users reading the log, users and those writing extensions. We need to have enough information for the later class of users.
The problem is, that if we have the error log, how do people know to look there? Should this be some hidden feature that only those who look through hidden directories and read the mailing list know about? I don't think that is a user friendly approach. I think it is much better to inform them that there is an log with errors in it, should they be interested in investigating further. (with the dialog text being rewritten appropriately)
While I like the idea of only giving errors when the user tries to use the feature, I don't think that it is practical. I don't want a list of filetypes that I can select, with only 2 of them usable. I don't want to be able to accidentally select one (even though I know it isn't usable) because I'm working quickly. So, then we could have them unselectable (dimmed) -- but then how would you know whether that is a problem in the document (ie, it doesn't work with paths) or there is something else that I need to install. Well, we could put a custom icon along side each entry to show what mode it is in, then we could provide a secret decoder ring to each user...
While that might be going a little far, I think that the point is we want to remove clutter from the list of choices that is given to a user as much as possible.
--Ted
Ted Gould wrote:
Yes, I think the text needs to change -- but I think the dialog needs to stay.
I think that everyone likes the error log, which I think actually documents many of the problems. I think most of the complaints have been that the format is too technical -- which I can agree with. But I think that there are two types of users reading the log, users and those writing extensions. We need to have enough information for the later class of users.
See RFE 1151684 and RFE 1161172
I'm attacking those, and think they'll address most of the concerns.
Ted Gould wrote:
Yes, I think the text needs to change -- but I think the dialog needs to stay.
I'd like to recommend disabling the dialog, at least until it's pretty common people will have most extensions. For one thing, it's extremely disconcerting, even for someone like me who isn't exactly a computer novice (I've been using and programming computers for years). It's simply that you don't expect a message like this popping up as soon as you start a program, and before having even read it I immediately fear something terrible has happened. It's usually simply not a very good sign if a message pops up even before the application is visible, as it usually indicates a very basic failure (something like "I'm sorry, but this thing I really need isn't there, so bye bye."). And who says the user will even want to use these extensions (I know I don't), so why bother complaining about some missing extensions that some people will never need or even know about. That is also part of what makes it confusing to the average user, they have no idea what an extension is, let alone whether they need it or not (I did know btw, as I read some discussion about the message on the mailinglist, but as I said, the "damage" is in fact done before the user even reads the message).
And yes, the message could definitely be a bit clearer (and it would be convenient if the error log was easier to open, perhaps by pressing a button on the message dialog?).
I myself am in a similar situation with a Winamp plugin of mine, it can make use of extensions in the form of a LAME or Ogg Vorbis dll (as well as exe's, but that's another story). Initially I took a route that was more or less opposite of what InkScape now does with this warning, I simply didn't list these formats as an option if the dll wasn't available. People didn't like that though, as they thought the plugin didn't support these formats at all when they first installed the plugin. Now I simply list the formats but give a warning when the user selects a format that misses one or more dependencies (the warning is issued when the user closes the config dialog, not immediately after selecting the format). The warning explains the format misses some dependencies and tells the user what exactly is missing. This method basically lets users live in blissfull ignorance until they actually want to use one of these formats and then they'll be asked to make sure some other things are installed. For the user this much more natural, as the message is directly related to something they try to do. I've not had any complaints about this method yet btw (and it has been in use for some time now).
As a kind of compromise, at least consider delaying the message until InkScape has started itself (when the main window is visible), that way it's less troubling (InkScape is already shown, so it obviously can't be that bad).
On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 11:12:36AM +0100, Jasper van de Gronde wrote:
Ted Gould wrote:
Yes, I think the text needs to change -- but I think the dialog needs to stay.
I'd like to recommend disabling the dialog, at least until it's pretty common people will have most extensions. For one thing, it's extremely disconcerting, even for someone like me who isn't exactly a computer novice (I've been using and programming computers for years). It's simply that you don't expect a message like this popping up as soon as you start a program, and before having even read it I immediately fear something terrible has happened. It's usually simply not a very good sign if a message pops up even before the application is visible, as it usually indicates a very basic failure (something like "I'm sorry, but this thing I really need isn't there, so bye bye.").
I agree, inkscape should not present dialogs to the at startup unless something is *seriously* broken. I also recall being very startled the first time it popped up.
The nature of the way the dialog works means that darn near *everyone* who uses 0.41 will see the dialog at least once. Making every user's first experience with 0.41 be an error dialog might not give them a very good feeling about the robustness of the application in general.
Bryce
On Sun, 2005-03-13 at 10:07 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 11:12:36AM +0100, Jasper van de Gronde wrote:
Ted Gould wrote:
Yes, I think the text needs to change -- but I think the dialog needs to stay.
I'd like to recommend disabling the dialog, at least until it's pretty common people will have most extensions. For one thing, it's extremely disconcerting, even for someone like me who isn't exactly a computer novice (I've been using and programming computers for years). It's simply that you don't expect a message like this popping up as soon as you start a program, and before having even read it I immediately fear something terrible has happened. It's usually simply not a very good sign if a message pops up even before the application is visible, as it usually indicates a very basic failure (something like "I'm sorry, but this thing I really need isn't there, so bye bye.").
I agree, inkscape should not present dialogs to the at startup unless something is *seriously* broken. I also recall being very startled the first time it popped up.
The nature of the way the dialog works means that darn near *everyone* who uses 0.41 will see the dialog at least once. Making every user's first experience with 0.41 be an error dialog might not give them a very good feeling about the robustness of the application in general.
I agree that this should be removed. Then, just have the error messages sent to console and on windows, send them to the message window ishmal added...however, the message window should go behind the main Inkscape window so it doesn't startle users.
Jon
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On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 04:19:50PM -0800, Jon Phillips wrote:
I agree that this should be removed. Then, just have the error messages sent to console and on windows, send them to the message window ishmal added...however, the message window should go behind the main Inkscape window so it doesn't startle users.
I think what would be even cooler is to implement an Extension Editor dialog, that provides a GUI view of the extension db, that shows each extension and its status, along with error messages, info about where to get the extension, etc. This way, the error info is easily available for users curious about it, but safely hidden from those who don't.
Perhaps a first start could be to create a function that iterates through the extension db and generates a string that summarizes the status of each extension, and then just put that into a text box in a dialog. That shouldn't be too hard to implement, and while it'd be ugly, it would be enough to be able to eliminate the error dialog on startup.
Bryce
Bryce Harrington wrote:
I think what would be even cooler is to implement an Extension Editor dialog, that provides a GUI view of the extension db, that shows each extension and its status, along with error messages, info about where to get the extension, etc. This way, the error info is easily available for users curious about it, but safely hidden from those who don't.
Perhaps a first start could be to create a function that iterates through the extension db and generates a string that summarizes the status of each extension, and then just put that into a text box in a dialog. That shouldn't be too hard to implement, and while it'd be ugly, it would be enough to be able to eliminate the error dialog on startup.
Great idea, Bryce.
Which is probably why I'm in the middle of coding that up today. :-)
Bryce Harrington wrote:
On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 04:19:50PM -0800, Jon Phillips wrote:
I agree that this should be removed. Then, just have the error messages sent to console and on windows, send them to the message window ishmal added...however, the message window should go behind the main Inkscape window so it doesn't startle users.
I think what would be even cooler is to implement an Extension Editor dialog, that provides a GUI view of the extension db, that shows each extension and its status, along with error messages, info about where to get the extension, etc. This way, the error info is easily available for users curious about it, but safely hidden from those who don't.
Perhaps a first start could be to create a function that iterates through the extension db and generates a string that summarizes the status of each extension, and then just put that into a text box in a dialog. That shouldn't be too hard to implement, and while it'd be ugly, it would be enough to be able to eliminate the error dialog on startup.
Bryce
Btw, Win32 still does not have the extension DLLs being built, and will likely not have them until we get the dependency-free export api done. DLLs have tougher binding requirements than Unix; our current build would require the entire Inkscape object blob to be linked with each DLL. This needs to be fixed, by separating Interface & Implementation, and/or by XPath, before this can be accomplished. An extension CANNOT know the internals of Inkscape, other than published interfaces.
Bob
participants (9)
-
unknown＠example.com -
Alan Horkan -
Bob Jamison -
Bryce Harrington -
Jasper van de Gronde -
Jon A. Cruz -
Jon Phillips -
Joshua A. Andler -
Ted Gould