Hi,
Bryce told me that some dialogs need redesigning and "Export to bitmap" is one of them. After some serious thinking I came to conclusion that redesigning "Export to bitmap" is not enough. The issue is actually with Save as.../Export dialogs themselves. IMO, there are some inconviniences that need to be fixed.
Let's look at these functions through the user case glass.
Designer A has done a nice sketch. Though he likes it, he wants to make another version. He saves it under some other name and keeps working on the new file.
Designer B has done several sketches. Now he wants to send them to his customer in some easy to view file format. He needs to save copy of each original file in a different file format in the same directory, where originals are.
Now let's look closer.
In the first case he wants to go to "File - Save as..." and specify name of the new file in the same directory, without changing file extension. The only reason to "save as" into, e.g. AI is when he was told that the new version has to be done in AI from ground up -- and only if his $VECTOR_GRAPHICS_EDITOR supports direct editing of AI files. I wonder how smooth Inkscape is at editing AI/EPS/EPSI/POV/PS instead of native SVG :)
In the second case he wants to go to "File - Export as..." and: 1) specify name of the new file; 2) specify its extension; 3) specify export parameters.
I don't even doubt that Inkscape will have export parameters dialog for EPS and PostScript (and TIFF as soon as someone writes it). Users are not supposed to see "Export to EPS", "Export to TIFF" etc. menu items in "File", don't you agree? ;)
The GIMP model I'm talking about is quite nice, but its has a PITA drawback -- The GIMP doesn't remeber the last directory it went to. If you find a way to work around it, we will need the following:
1. Add "Export as..." menu item to "Files". 2. Add "Export to" dialog in a GIMP style with
- a file name entry box; - a combobox to switch between directories from gtk bookmarks; - a hidable large "Specify directory" file panel; - a hidable "Choose export format" panel.
3. Move current "Export to bitmap" dialog to a new dialog "PNG export settings" which will appear, if a user chooses PNG as export format. Adding export settings to other file formats will be easier then.
Guys at Novell have good points in their DesignWiki (http://primates.ximian.com/~glesage/wiki/doku.php?id=gimp:png_export). I really like their idea, so I suggest:
4. Add "Fast export" (or "Save for Web") menu item to save a PNG to the same directory, where the sketch is, or to a "fast export" directory specified in Inkscape's preferences. It will make decision on saving region from the selection context:
- export the whole page, if nothing is selected; - export current selection, whatever is selected.
Honestly, I don't remember myself ever saving a "special" region -- only current selection or the whole page. If I want something to be absent in exported bitmap, I either don't select or move it away out of the page. But my use case may be different from yours. I can imagine a situation when a designer needs to export "slices" from his design.
I really hope that this proposal makes some sense to you :)
Alexandre
I think the separation between SaveAs and Export is simpler. SaveAs should basically save a file that is later loadable and editable, while Export does not have that limitation. If we "SaveAs" foreign formats, then we will start having the same problems as Word and OpenOffice, constantly asking if we want to save in native format before closing. That's why I have mentioned several times that I need to move my pov-out code from SaveAs to Export as soon as that dialog is GtkMM'd. It is a one-way function.
Bob
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
Hi,
Bryce told me that some dialogs need redesigning and "Export to bitmap" is one of them. After some serious thinking I came to conclusion that redesigning "Export to bitmap" is not enough. The issue is actually with Save as.../Export dialogs themselves. IMO, there are some inconviniences that need to be fixed.
Let's look at these functions through the user case glass.
Designer A has done a nice sketch. Though he likes it, he wants to make another version. He saves it under some other name and keeps working on the new file.
Designer B has done several sketches. Now he wants to send them to his customer in some easy to view file format. He needs to save copy of each original file in a different file format in the same directory, where originals are.
Now let's look closer.
In the first case he wants to go to "File - Save as..." and specify name of the new file in the same directory, without changing file extension. The only reason to "save as" into, e.g. AI is when he was told that the new version has to be done in AI from ground up -- and only if his $VECTOR_GRAPHICS_EDITOR supports direct editing of AI files. I wonder how smooth Inkscape is at editing AI/EPS/EPSI/POV/PS instead of native SVG :)
In the second case he wants to go to "File - Export as..." and:
- specify name of the new file;
- specify its extension;
- specify export parameters.
I don't even doubt that Inkscape will have export parameters dialog for EPS and PostScript (and TIFF as soon as someone writes it). Users are not supposed to see "Export to EPS", "Export to TIFF" etc. menu items in "File", don't you agree? ;)
The GIMP model I'm talking about is quite nice, but its has a PITA drawback -- The GIMP doesn't remeber the last directory it went to. If you find a way to work around it, we will need the following:
- Add "Export as..." menu item to "Files".
- Add "Export to" dialog in a GIMP style with
- a file name entry box;
- a combobox to switch between directories from gtk bookmarks;
- a hidable large "Specify directory" file panel;
- a hidable "Choose export format" panel.
- Move current "Export to bitmap" dialog to a new dialog "PNG export
settings" which will appear, if a user chooses PNG as export format. Adding export settings to other file formats will be easier then.
Guys at Novell have good points in their DesignWiki (http://primates.ximian.com/~glesage/wiki/doku.php?id=gimp:png_export). I really like their idea, so I suggest:
- Add "Fast export" (or "Save for Web") menu item to save a PNG to
the same directory, where the sketch is, or to a "fast export" directory specified in Inkscape's preferences. It will make decision on saving region from the selection context:
- export the whole page, if nothing is selected;
- export current selection, whatever is selected.
Honestly, I don't remember myself ever saving a "special" region -- only current selection or the whole page. If I want something to be absent in exported bitmap, I either don't select or move it away out of the page. But my use case may be different from yours. I can imagine a situation when a designer needs to export "slices" from his design.
I really hope that this proposal makes some sense to you :)
Alexandre
The SF.Net email is sponsored by: Beat the post-holiday blues Get a FREE limited edition SourceForge.net t-shirt from ThinkGeek. It's fun and FREE -- well, almost....http://www.thinkgeek.com/sfshirt _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
On Mon, 2005-01-03 at 13:07 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
Bryce told me that some dialogs need redesigning and "Export to bitmap" is one of them. After some serious thinking I came to conclusion that redesigning "Export to bitmap" is not enough. The issue is actually with Save as.../Export dialogs themselves. IMO, there are some inconviniences that need to be fixed.
I think that your thinking of the "Export to bitmap" as a dialog, and not a pallet. Now, I think that perhaps we need to change the name -- but it has been designed as a pallet (i.e. it is not modal, it changes and you interact with the document).
Let's look at these functions through the user case glass.
Designer A has done a nice sketch. Though he likes it, he wants to make another version. He saves it under some other name and keeps working on the new file.
Designer B has done several sketches. Now he wants to send them to his customer in some easy to view file format. He needs to save copy of each original file in a different file format in the same directory, where originals are.
Designer C is constantly exporting bitmaps of different parts of the entire website that he designed. So, he is selecting one group, exporting it as a particular name. Perhaps changing the color of a background, and then exporting several. When selecting each object the filename changes, along with the settings, and he can just click export several times across the graphic.
I don't even doubt that Inkscape will have export parameters dialog for EPS and PostScript (and TIFF as soon as someone writes it). Users are not supposed to see "Export to EPS", "Export to TIFF" etc. menu items in "File", don't you agree? ;)
No, this is definitely in the works. Currently, the biggest blocking factor is that the PNG export code needs to be ported over to being an output extension. There is already support with all the output extensions of them having dialogs for more information on save, but I don't believe any of them are using it currently.
So, in summary, I think that there needs to be two things here, the export to bitmap feature as it currently is provides a dialog for designers who are constantly using this feature. Also, there needs to be an export function that is a little more generic and can be used for many other formats.
--Ted
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 08:33:49 -0700, Ted Gould <ted@...11...> wrote:
On Mon, 2005-01-03 at 13:07 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
Bryce told me that some dialogs need redesigning and "Export to bitmap" is one of them. After some serious thinking I came to conclusion that redesigning "Export to bitmap" is not enough. The issue is actually with Save as.../Export dialogs themselves. IMO, there are some inconviniences that need to be fixed.
I think that your thinking of the "Export to bitmap" as a dialog, and not a pallet. Now, I think that perhaps we need to change the name -- but it has been designed as a pallet (i.e. it is not modal, it changes and you interact with the document).
Yes, I think of it as of a dialog.
Let's look at these functions through the user case glass.
Designer A has done a nice sketch. Though he likes it, he wants to make another version. He saves it under some other name and keeps working on the new file.
Designer B has done several sketches. Now he wants to send them to his customer in some easy to view file format. He needs to save copy of each original file in a different file format in the same directory, where originals are.
Designer C is constantly exporting bitmaps of different parts of the entire website that he designed. So, he is selecting one group, exporting it as a particular name. Perhaps changing the color of a background, and then exporting several. When selecting each object the filename changes, along with the settings, and he can just click export several times across the graphic.
So, in summary, I think that there needs to be two things here, the export to bitmap feature as it currently is provides a dialog for designers who are constantly using this feature. Also, there needs to be an export function that is a little more generic and can be used for many other formats.
Well, it's more or less what I wrote about :)
So what do you think about a function similar to http://primates.ximian.com/~glesage/wiki/doku.php?id=gimp:png_export ?
Alexandre
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 23:07:21 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:
So, in summary, I think that there needs to be two things here, the export to bitmap feature as it currently is provides a dialog for designers who are constantly using this feature. Also, there needs to be an export function that is a little more generic and can be used for many other formats.
Well, it's more or less what I wrote about :)
Personally I don't like the idea of duplicating the current export bitmap dialog as something else "simplified". It's very simple already. What you describe (export page if nothing selected otherwise the selection, at the default resolution with default filename) is as simple as Ctrl+Shift+E, click Export, done. What can be simpler?
Instead, here are some things that should be done:
- add more bitmap formats, not only PNG
- rename it to "export bitmap"
- make "browse" open a new file dialog, not the old one
- to Save/Save as, add a tip for newbies: "To save your drawing in a bitmap, use the Export Bitmap command."
On Mon, 2005-01-03 at 16:26 -0400, bulia byak wrote:
Personally I don't like the idea of duplicating the current export bitmap dialog as something else "simplified". It's very simple already. What you describe (export page if nothing selected otherwise the selection, at the default resolution with default filename) is as simple as Ctrl+Shift+E, click Export, done. What can be simpler?
Instead, here are some things that should be done:
add more bitmap formats, not only PNG
rename it to "export bitmap"
make "browse" open a new file dialog, not the old one
to Save/Save as, add a tip for newbies: "To save your drawing in a
bitmap, use the Export Bitmap command."
I agree that these need to be done. But I think it makes sense to have a "normal" export also. So things like the Povray plugin aren't in the save dialog, which really doesn't make that much sense.
--Ted
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 23:54:59 -0700, Ted Gould <ted@...11...> wrote:
On Mon, 2005-01-03 at 16:26 -0400, bulia byak wrote:
Personally I don't like the idea of duplicating the current export bitmap dialog as something else "simplified". It's very simple already. What you describe (export page if nothing selected otherwise the selection, at the default resolution with default filename) is as simple as Ctrl+Shift+E, click Export, done. What can be simpler?
Instead, here are some things that should be done:
add more bitmap formats, not only PNG
rename it to "export bitmap"
make "browse" open a new file dialog, not the old one
to Save/Save as, add a tip for newbies: "To save your drawing in a
bitmap, use the Export Bitmap command."
I agree that these need to be done. But I think it makes sense to have a "normal" export also. So things like the Povray plugin aren't in the save dialog, which really doesn't make that much sense.
Well, it wasn't really obvious to me that Export to bitmap is designed as a palette, really :) Now I understand why there is no "Close" button (other dialogs don't have it as well, actually) :))
But then Inkscape is going to have a menu item to call a palette from "File" menu -- a very intriguing feature. What do you think about keeping menu items for palettes in one special menu like "Settings"?
Alexandre
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:07:25 +0300 From: Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> To: Inkscape ML inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Save as.../Export etc.
Hi,
Bryce told me that some dialogs need redesigning and "Export to bitmap" is one of them. After some serious thinking I came to conclusion that redesigning "Export to bitmap" is not enough.
Depends on how you define redesign but I think it is a prime candidate for a complete overhaul.
Users clearly find the current Export Palette relatively useful when they wish to export the current SVG (or parts of it) as many seperate files, that it is currently implemented as Palette and allows you to increment the file name and tweak lots of settings I think helps confirm that this is what is really being used for.
If a developer like yourself is enthusiasitc about a serious overhaul I think it would be worthwhile to step back and to try and idenify the larget problem, which you have made a good start on. I think the usage descriptions indicates that a batch export tool of Raster graphics is what is what users want (i cannot think of a better comparison than Adobe Photoshops "Save for Web" which doesn't really adequetely describe what I'm getting at or Image Ready with its slice tools which would be useful but actaully quite different). It would be more straighforward to keep any such tool seperate from the simple task of a once-off or occasional export you describe in your first use case which could more easily be taken care of with a standard file chooser, and the complicated batch saving dealt with elsewhere.
I think that being able to export each layer as a seperate file or alternatively each top level group or something like that would be the way to automate the whole process. Inkscape already internally has a methode for doing something like this where it 'exports' each SVG icon from a collection of many icons all in single file.
- Move current "Export to bitmap" dialog to a new dialog "PNG export
settings" which will appear, if a user chooses PNG as export format. Adding export settings to other file formats will be easier then.
Guys at Novell have good points in their DesignWiki (http://primates.ximian.com/~glesage/wiki/doku.php?id=gimp:png_export). I really like their idea, so I suggest:
Interesting but I've always preferred having a single option button on the File Chooser that takes you to the Import/Export section of the preferences dialog (which is how Paint Shop Pro did it, if I recall correctly).
- Add "Fast export" (or "Save for Web") menu item to save a PNG to
the same directory, where the sketch is, or to a "fast export" directory specified in Inkscape's preferences. It will make decision on saving region from the selection context:
- export the whole page, if nothing is selected;
- export current selection, whatever is selected.
I guess we can agree on the general idea that something like this is needed but I'm sure that if you reduce the functionality or make it any less easy to export parts of the image as seperate files that users will get annoyed.
Honestly, I don't remember myself ever saving a "special" region -- only current selection or the whole page. If I want something to be absent in exported bitmap, I either don't select or move it away out of the page.
imagine a situation when a designer needs to export "slices" from his design.
I really hope that this proposal makes some sense to you :)
There is definately scope for looking at what the user really wants to get done and overhauling the current setup to make that easier, rather than fiddling around with current bitmap export trying to get it to be good in two quite different ways.
Sincerely
Alan Horkan
Inkscape, Draw Freely http://inkscape.org Abiword is Awesome http://abisource.com
Hi Alex,
Thanks for this write up, this is a very good analysis of the Export needs. I've extracted the essence of the recommendations and added them to the PLAN for the Export Dialog in the inkscape_gtkmm tree.
Keep the suggestions coming! :-)
Bryce
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
Bryce told me that some dialogs need redesigning and "Export to bitmap" is one of them. After some serious thinking I came to conclusion that redesigning "Export to bitmap" is not enough. The issue is actually with Save as.../Export dialogs themselves. IMO, there are some inconviniences that need to be fixed.
Let's look at these functions through the user case glass.
Designer A has done a nice sketch. Though he likes it, he wants to make another version. He saves it under some other name and keeps working on the new file.
Designer B has done several sketches. Now he wants to send them to his customer in some easy to view file format. He needs to save copy of each original file in a different file format in the same directory, where originals are.
Now let's look closer.
In the first case he wants to go to "File - Save as..." and specify name of the new file in the same directory, without changing file extension. The only reason to "save as" into, e.g. AI is when he was told that the new version has to be done in AI from ground up -- and only if his $VECTOR_GRAPHICS_EDITOR supports direct editing of AI files. I wonder how smooth Inkscape is at editing AI/EPS/EPSI/POV/PS instead of native SVG :)
In the second case he wants to go to "File - Export as..." and:
- specify name of the new file;
- specify its extension;
- specify export parameters.
I don't even doubt that Inkscape will have export parameters dialog for EPS and PostScript (and TIFF as soon as someone writes it). Users are not supposed to see "Export to EPS", "Export to TIFF" etc. menu items in "File", don't you agree? ;)
The GIMP model I'm talking about is quite nice, but its has a PITA drawback -- The GIMP doesn't remeber the last directory it went to. If you find a way to work around it, we will need the following:
- Add "Export as..." menu item to "Files".
- Add "Export to" dialog in a GIMP style with
- a file name entry box;
- a combobox to switch between directories from gtk bookmarks;
- a hidable large "Specify directory" file panel;
- a hidable "Choose export format" panel.
- Move current "Export to bitmap" dialog to a new dialog "PNG export
settings" which will appear, if a user chooses PNG as export format. Adding export settings to other file formats will be easier then.
Guys at Novell have good points in their DesignWiki (http://primates.ximian.com/~glesage/wiki/doku.php?id=gimp:png_export). I really like their idea, so I suggest:
- Add "Fast export" (or "Save for Web") menu item to save a PNG to
the same directory, where the sketch is, or to a "fast export" directory specified in Inkscape's preferences. It will make decision on saving region from the selection context:
- export the whole page, if nothing is selected;
- export current selection, whatever is selected.
Honestly, I don't remember myself ever saving a "special" region -- only current selection or the whole page. If I want something to be absent in exported bitmap, I either don't select or move it away out of the page. But my use case may be different from yours. I can imagine a situation when a designer needs to export "slices" from his design.
I really hope that this proposal makes some sense to you :)
Alexandre
The SF.Net email is sponsored by: Beat the post-holiday blues Get a FREE limited edition SourceForge.net t-shirt from ThinkGeek. It's fun and FREE -- well, almost....http://www.thinkgeek.com/sfshirt _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
participants (6)
-
Alan Horkan -
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Bob Jamison -
Bryce Harrington -
bulia byak -
Ted Gould