Export workflow, template format proposals (discussion)
Hi All, It's been a long time (my alias is cleary) - We're beginning to see inkscape get some traction in our company as a tool for non-designers to make small changes to templates/documents that our designers create.
An example scenario: Our HR Dept does Job Vacancy releases. These job vacancy documents have fairly standard elements, and the vast majority of changes that the HR guys need to make are as simple as changing the date, or location.
The workflow I'm looking to introduce is: the Designers create a template, HR can then take that template, make minor text changes, export to PDF and distribute.
There are two niggles in the way inkscape handles this process, and I'd like to at least open up some discussion on resolving these niggles.
1st Niggle: Exporting to PDF is a "Save" operation, not an "Export" operation After they've made some changes, the users must remember to save as SVG first before saving as PDF in order to maintain a compatible "source" document. They also have to remember that after saving as PDF, they are no longer working on the source document.
Proposal: Expand the "Export to Bitmap" File menu item to include PDF, and potentially other formats that are not suitable as a "source" document ie they can't preserve an adequate level of info - layers, objects etc By doing this, The Export action creates the PDF (or non-source suitable) document, and any subsequent modifications are still saved to the source SVG document without any further opening/closing/saving over existing docs. Gimp recently introduced this idea I believe.
2nd Niggle: The current "Templates" handling involves maintaining documents in a dir under the inkscape profile dir. This requires some bespoke SOE handling for multiple users to get access to multiple templates.
Proposal: Introduce an "inkscape template" file extension in a similar fashion to popular office suites (.svgt?). The file is no different to a standard inkscape svg, the only difference would be that when you go to Save the document for the first time, it forces you to use the Save As... dialog so you don't overwrite the template. This would allow users to keep templates *anywhere*, and won't require any significant training or support to make sure there's no accidental clobbering of the template documents.
I'd be keen to hear people's thoughts, and I realise this may be better as two separate discussions. My programming skills are fairly atrophied these days, but I would definitely consider having a crack at patching something. Paying for the features either in the form of a project donation or by specifically hiring resources are also possibilities.
Thanks for your consideration, Bernard Gray
On Wed, 2014-04-02 at 13:06 +1100, Bernard Gray wrote:
I'd be keen to hear people's thoughts, and I realise this may be better as two separate discussions. My programming skills are fairly atrophied these days, but I would definitely consider having a crack at patching something. Paying for the features either in the form of a project donation or by specifically hiring resources are also possibilities.
Hi Bernard,
I think the solution might be to think of inkscape as the template creator and renderer.
So one can run inkscape from a script or command line in order to turn any svg into a pdf. This is useful for keeping things in svg until the last part of the process and you can automate this. I've seen solutions that watch a directory for svg files and render pdf files automatically.
The other option is to print to pdf. Not sure if it's the same for inkscape's renderer or not though.
For data entry. i.e. fixed fields. We could do more work there for sure. We don't really have a way of specifiying parts of a document which are configurable and parts that aren't. I don't think SVG2 is going in that direction either (please surprise me with a correction Tav)
Overall I think the work might be done with smaller scripts. Although we'd certainly appreciate the investment in inkscape to improve the save and export design. In my designs, save would be for any file. It would default and prioritise svg/plain svg etc, but if you selected pdf or png it would open the export dialog setting that file. Making it a two entry flow rather than two single flows.
There's little reason to consider pdf options and png options to be somehow different.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
On 2 April 2014 21:36, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
On Wed, 2014-04-02 at 13:06 +1100, Bernard Gray wrote:
I'd be keen to hear people's thoughts, and I realise this may be better as two separate discussions. My programming skills are fairly atrophied these days, but I would definitely consider having a crack at patching something. Paying for the features either in the form of a project donation or by specifically hiring resources are also possibilities.
Hi Bernard,
I think the solution might be to think of inkscape as the template creator and renderer.
So one can run inkscape from a script or command line in order to turn any svg into a pdf. This is useful for keeping things in svg until the last part of the process and you can automate this. I've seen solutions that watch a directory for svg files and render pdf files automatically.
Hi Martin, Thanks for the reply - I imagine that scripting is a common (and for us at least) a fairly simple option to implement. In my users case though, this goes back to limiting the locations where they can store the files, and I'm trying to remove this restriction on them. It'll also cause us support issues if the service isn't running, or they move the files and it stops working etc. The least added maintenance/support we the IT team have to do, the better. Like it or not, you guys have done a great job of the GUI interface. It's very accessible, and users can go from novice to functioning in a matter of minutes. For this scenario specifically, I'd like to leverage this feature :)
The other option is to print to pdf. Not sure if it's the same for inkscape's renderer or not though.
Great idea - for the HR guys, they're running windows so I'll check to see what print dialogs/renderers we can get access to there and that might be an adequate workaround for now.
For data entry. i.e. fixed fields. We could do more work there for sure. We don't really have a way of specifiying parts of a document which are configurable and parts that aren't. I don't think SVG2 is going in that direction either (please surprise me with a correction Tav)
Don't worry about this bit - to create this feature I've just added a layer of non-editable elements, and locked that layer. Then all the editable elements go on a new, unlocked layer.
Overall I think the work might be done with smaller scripts. Although we'd certainly appreciate the investment in inkscape to improve the save and export design. In my designs, save would be for any file. It would default and prioritise svg/plain svg etc, but if you selected pdf or png it would open the export dialog setting that file. Making it a two entry flow rather than two single flows.
That's an interesting take on it. I was thinking that we could potentially leave both flows in (ie adding the file types to the Export menu, but not removing them from the Save menu). I guess it gets complicated here because inkscape has the ability to handle PDF file types directly (opening and saving), so ideally you'd want to be able to save back to that (and similar) file types directly where applicable.
One of the reasons I proposed the Export to... option and keeping the two flows separate was to maintain consistency with the workflows of other similar tools. I just realised that my knowledge of other tools (adobe cs suite for example) is fairly limited, so I just went and had a chat to the designers next door to see what is actually done -
Illustrator: No "Export to... PDF" option, only "Save As...-> PDF". This behaviour is the same as inkscape currently InDesign: Has "Export to... PDF" option, but no "Save As... -> PDF"
So it's no clearer :P
My proposal is actually to support both these workflows - add the File -> Export to... PDF menu option, but leave the "Save As... -> PDF" option intact. This gives the opportunity for a user to not have the source file changed from underneath them via a save operation *if they choose* and significantly reduces the risk of it happening inadvertently, but leaves the scenario where you can change the working file to a different format deliberately, *if you choose*. It can also open up the opportunity for exporting to other bitmap formats (like jpeg which I occasionally find myself having to take and extra step to convert to from time to time)
There's little reason to consider pdf options and png options to be somehow different.
The options for exporting aren't different per se, but the concepts of Exporting vs Saving *are* very different. That's the key issue I'm working to resolve.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
Any thoughts on the svgt(emplate) file proposal? I raised the idea with the designers, and they really liked it. Apparently they are constantly fixing "template" files that have been accidentally overwritten because someone forgot to take a copy first, or remember to use Save As for the first save.
On Thu, 2014-04-03 at 11:22 +1100, Bernard Gray wrote:
My proposal is actually to support both these workflows - add the File -> Export to... PDF menu option, but leave the "Save As... -> PDF" option intact.
Sorry I wasn't clear. This is my proposal also.
I would not like to see a new menu item though. Exporting a specific type should be something the export dialog takes care of, so exporting to eps, pdf or something else.
The big difference between export and save as, is that save as sets the document filename to this new filename and export should not.
Martin,
On 3 April 2014 13:46, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
On Thu, 2014-04-03 at 11:22 +1100, Bernard Gray wrote:
My proposal is actually to support both these workflows - add the File -> Export to... PDF menu option, but leave the "Save As... -> PDF" option intact.
Sorry I wasn't clear. This is my proposal also.
I would not like to see a new menu item though. Exporting a specific type should be something the export dialog takes care of, so exporting to eps, pdf or something else.
The big difference between export and save as, is that save as sets the document filename to this new filename and export should not.
Great, we're on the same page - I'm not fussy as to how it's implemented in the menu.
Gimp currently provides two Export options in it's file menu, "Export", and "Export As...": * Export As... takes you to a file picker dialog, where you can choose the location and format of the exported file * If you haven't exported the document already, the "Export" button does the same thing * Once you have exported the document, it remembers the last file you exported to and the "Export" button title changes to reflect this, ie "Export to <file>.<extension>"
This would require the addition of a new menu item though. If you want to avoid this would you prefer to just go with something similar to the Gimp "Export As..." button/functionality?
Martin,
On Thu, 2014-04-03 at 16:39 +1100, Bernard Gray wrote:
Great, we're on the same page - I'm not fussy as to how it's implemented in the menu.
Gimp currently provides two Export options in it's file menu, "Export", and "Export As...":
- Export As... takes you to a file picker dialog, where you can choose
the location and format of the exported file
- If you haven't exported the document already, the "Export" button
does the same thing
- Once you have exported the document, it remembers the last file you
exported to and the "Export" button title changes to reflect this, ie "Export to <file>.<extension>"
This would require the addition of a new menu item though. If you want to avoid this would you prefer to just go with something similar to the Gimp "Export As..." button/functionality?
Design wise. I think that part of the gimp design is good to have.
I'm not a big fan of them removing the ability to 'save' png files without birching the user though. So keeping lossy formats in the save dialog is very useful.
Shame we can't save jpeg files yet. But opening a png, adding an annotation and saving it back should be possible IMO
Martin,
On 3 April 2014 16:44, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
On Thu, 2014-04-03 at 16:39 +1100, Bernard Gray wrote:
This would require the addition of a new menu item though. If you want to avoid this would you prefer to just go with something similar to the Gimp "Export As..." button/functionality?
Design wise. I think that part of the gimp design is good to have.
I'm not a big fan of them removing the ability to 'save' png files without birching the user though. So keeping lossy formats in the save dialog is very useful.
Shame we can't save jpeg files yet. But opening a png, adding an annotation and saving it back should be possible IMO
Martin,
Agreed :) I haven't been near Inkscape source in many years, I will get into it if I get some time spare next week. I take it you'll be at the LibreGraphics meeting - is there any chance this will get looked at there? /makes big blinking wishful eyes
Thanks again for the brainstorm -
Bernie
participants (2)
-
Bernard Gray -
Martin Owens