Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fedora Core 3 and Inkscape problems
On Thursday 27 July 2006 18:11, you wrote:
Donn,
Your message was noticed and answered. I've forwarded the reply below.
Aaron Spike
Aaron, I do apologize for being irritating, but I feel up against a wall with nowhere to turn for help. If you read my repost you will see I added some stuff at the front. I acknowledged the reply from ralf in there.
The thing is I don't hold much hope that 0.44.1 or whatever, is going to compile with much luck. My Fedora version is a little old and keeping up with dependant libs is a problem.
So, if there is someone who can help with: a. The autopackage problem or b. An RPM for FC3 or c. Some discussion relating to my last question about inkspace vs Firefox/Thunderbird
Donn.
donn wrote:
Aaron, I do apologize for being irritating, but I feel up against a wall with nowhere to turn for help. If you read my repost you will see I added some stuff at the front. I acknowledged the reply from ralf in there.
You haven't irritated me. :-) From the beginning of your reply I got the impression that it was just a repost and that you hadn't noticed Ralf's response. Perhaps if you had replied with the same subject I wouldn't have made this mistake. I apologize.
The thing is I don't hold much hope that 0.44.1 or whatever, is going to compile with much luck. My Fedora version is a little old and keeping up with dependant libs is a problem.
IMHO, If Ralf says the problem is fixed, you can be very confident it is. Does yum have a command similar to `apt-get build-dep`? That would help you significantly in building your own rpm.
So, if there is someone who can help with: a. The autopackage problem
This problem is mine. I'm rather inexperienced in the dark arts of building software on linux and I have yet to be successful in making the 0.44 autopackage link properly. It seems that there are a few people having difficulties building autopackages with Ubuntu.
b. An RPM for FC3
0.44 will not build on core 3, as you have experienced. But these problems are believed fixed in SVN. And I assume what Ralf meant when he suggested waiting for 0.44.1, was that you should wait for an RPM. Even then we will only be able to offer a Core 3 RPM if a volunteer steps forward to build one.
c. Some discussion relating to my last question about inkspace vs Firefox/Thunderbird
It would be a large package. :-) The autopackage attempts this in part, but only collects the rarest deps, but until I am successful, it is not an option. This also relates to your comments about windows. The windows package works because we ship it with the very latest versions of all of the dependencies. People often claim that we are wasting resources by not sharing dependencies with other apps. But no one has stepped up to fix the problem. You are making the opposite argument for linux. Likewise no one has show enough interest to fix the problem.
Lastly, I'd like to point out that Fedora is meant as a leading edge distro and Core 3 is aged. How can you expect bleeding edge software to compile and run without issue on a system that is already a few releases behind. The Inkscape project tries as much as possible not to leave users behind, but there come times when we must move forward and require newer versions of our dependencies. A larger problem is that we have no active participants running Core 3. So it receives no testing.
I hope this answers some of your questions. And I invite you to step forward and fill the voids that you have uncovered.
Aaron Spike
You haven't irritated me. :-) From the beginning of your reply I got the impression that it was just a repost and that you hadn't noticed Ralf's response. Perhaps if you had replied with the same subject I wouldn't have made this mistake. I apologize.
No worries, thanks for the detailed reply!
IMHO, If Ralf says the problem is fixed, you can be very confident it is. Does yum have a command similar to `apt-get build-dep`? That would help you significantly in building your own rpm.
I really don't know. It seems Fedora is not that popular a distro, or that Inkscape devs just happen not to use it! If I can't get a binary then I will focus on compiling it - it's a last resort for me!
This problem is mine. I'm rather inexperienced in the dark arts of building software on linux and I have yet to be successful in making the 0.44 autopackage link properly. It seems that there are a few people having difficulties building autopackages with Ubuntu.
Right okay, I'll ditch the autopackage then. Good luck with it!
b. An RPM for FC3
0.44 will not build on core 3, as you have experienced. But these problems are believed fixed in SVN. And I assume what Ralf meant when he suggested waiting for 0.44.1, was that you should wait for an RPM. Even then we will only be able to offer a Core 3 RPM if a volunteer steps forward to build one.
Okay. If I get a chance I'll try my hand at that.
c. Some discussion relating to my last question about inkspace vs Firefox/Thunderbird
It would be a large package. :-) The autopackage attempts this in part, but only collects the rarest deps, but until I am successful, it is not an option. This also relates to your comments about windows. The windows package works because we ship it with the very latest versions of all of the dependencies.
This sounds amazing to me - that it's harder to find *all* the deps for Linux than it is for Windows. Is it simply because you are new to the game or is it something Linuxy? Is it not possible to get a listing of the deps from Synaptic or from some fancy gnu command (lsof perhaps)? I dunno, sounds odd. I could see this as yet another strength of the (one ring) Windows approach, everything under a single API etc, and Linux's problem is it's wildly scattered libraries and morphologies etc. I could, but I don't know my ass from my elbow :)
I mean, if the guys who actually code inkscape cannot determine the exact list of dependencies it needs then how the heck can anyone else? :D
People often claim that we are wasting resources by not sharing dependencies with other apps. But no one has stepped up to fix the problem. You are making the opposite argument for linux. Likewise no one has show enough interest to fix the problem.
Well, I reckon a single tar.gz file with *all* the needed files to run inkscape would be a major boon. I think that's why Firefox and Thunderbird have done so well. I know it's a waste of space and resources and the (very bad) programmer in me screams in terror at the thought, but ... it really will make life easier on those like me who find themselves up the creek so to speak.
Lastly, I'd like to point out that Fedora is meant as a leading edge distro and Core 3 is aged. How can you expect bleeding edge software to compile and run without issue on a system that is already a few releases behind.
I know this and I am constantly tempted to jump to newer distros. I also resist because I am "at home" - you know - comfortable with my current setup. I resist because it just seems too overwhelming to have to move to an entire new O/S every six months! Even Ubuntu would have me doing that! I trust to my yum (apt) repos and update cycle to keep me topped-up according to the voodoo requirements of the system. Still, point taken - another reason why I would love a static solution to the inkscape thing.
The Inkscape project tries as much as possible not to leave users behind, but there come times when we must move forward and require newer versions of our dependencies. A larger problem is that we have no active participants running Core 3. So it receives no testing.
I wonder what users of inkscape use what distros? You should run a poll or something. Still, I'm game to test things and report.
I hope this answers some of your questions. And I invite you to step forward and fill the voids that you have uncovered.
Thanks Aaron, I will do what I can. Right now that looks like I might have to either upgrade/switch my distro (ouch) or try compiling inkscape again (ouch) so I will probably just go to bed!
PS - is the www.inkscapeforums.com part of inkscape or an indie website, because I reckon there should be a link from inkscape.com to the forum, for a lot of people forums are very good ways of solving problems and storing solutions. I found the blender forums instrumental in learning Blender for example. A wiki somehow does not encourage the same level of discussion, I don't know why.
Donn. South Africa.
donn wrote:
I really don't know. It seems Fedora is not that popular a distro, or that Inkscape devs just happen not to use it! If I can't get a binary then I will focus on compiling it - it's a last resort for me!
Here are two things: indeed, Inkscape developers tend to prefer other distros and FC3 is really old, Fedora Extras has packages for both FC4 and FC5.
PS - is the www.inkscapeforums.com part of inkscape or an indie website, because I reckon there should be a link from inkscape.com to the forum, for a lot of people forums are very good ways of solving problems and storing solutions. I found the blender forums instrumental in learning Blender for example. A wiki somehow does not encourage the same level of discussion, I don't know why.
Yes, the forum is run by the Inkscape community and should be linked from the website but you will find the developers prefer to use jabber/irc and mailing lists.
donn wrote:
c. Some discussion relating to my last question about inkspace vs Firefox/Thunderbird
It would be a large package. :-) The autopackage attempts this in part, but only collects the rarest deps, but until I am successful, it is not an option. This also relates to your comments about windows. The windows package works because we ship it with the very latest versions of all of the dependencies.
This sounds amazing to me - that it's harder to find *all* the deps for Linux than it is for Windows. Is it simply because you are new to the game or is it something Linuxy?
Not at all, it is more of a reaction. Finding and building all these libs on windows is much much more difficult and time consuming. Add that to the fact that windows lacks a good package manager like can be found in any linux distro. Inkscape has made it a priority to give those interested in building on windows the easiest time possible. (In hopes that we could attract more win32 developers because a large portion of our user base ins win32 but only a very small portion of our developer base.) Thanks to the hard work of Bob Jamison in collecting the packages we have a wonderful situation. A windows developer requires only three (rather large) downloads to compile inkscape.
Package managers like apt have made it very simple to find and install dependencies on linux for a long time now. If you are having difficulties file a bug against your distro.
I mean, if the guys who actually code inkscape cannot determine the exact list of dependencies it needs then how the heck can anyone else? :D
That is ridiculous. This isn't the situation at all. We are fully aware of the dependencies. (You should probably not risk offending people with comments like this if you would like assistance. ;-) )
The Inkscape project tries as much as possible not to leave users behind, but there come times when we must move forward and require newer versions of our dependencies. A larger problem is that we have no active participants running Core 3. So it receives no testing.
I wonder what users of inkscape use what distros? You should run a poll or something. Still, I'm game to test things and report.
I think that is a great idea. I'd really like to have user polls on the front page of the website.
As I mentioned before, we have supplied semistatic packages before with much success. All of the packages available on our site are there because someone volunteered to create them. No one has volunteered to create RPMs for Fedora Core 3.
Aaron Spike
This sounds amazing to me - that it's harder to find *all* the deps for Linux than it is for Windows. Is it simply because you are new to the game or is it something Linuxy?
Not at all, it is more of a reaction. Finding and building all these libs on windows is much much more difficult and time consuming. Add that to the fact that windows lacks a good package manager like can be found in any linux distro. Inkscape has made it a priority to give those interested in building on windows the easiest time possible. (In hopes that we could attract more win32 developers because a large portion of our user base ins win32 but only a very small portion of our developer base.) Thanks to the hard work of Bob Jamison in collecting the packages we have a wonderful situation. A windows developer requires only three (rather large) downloads to compile inkscape.
Bear with me, I am still a little confused here. I understand you to be saying that you are trying to attract win32 developers and that there is a really good system now for compiling for windows, but I don't quite get why a static tar.gz solution for Linux is not possible.
Package managers like apt have made it very simple to find and install dependencies on linux for a long time now. If you are having difficulties file a bug against your distro.
I would be a little foolish to file a bug against Fedora 3, since it is so old. One of the things that unsettles me about Linux is the rapid rate of change. Even ubuntu goes bang, bang, bang every 6 months or so. I am trying to squeeze more life out of FC3, I kinda told myself I would change-up every 2 years. Perhaps I am doing things wrong, I dunno.
I mean, if the guys who actually code inkscape cannot determine the exact list of dependencies it needs then how the heck can anyone else? :D
That is ridiculous. This isn't the situation at all. We are fully aware of the dependencies. (You should probably not risk offending people with comments like this if you would like assistance. ;-) )
Oops. Reading my comment again, it does sound sarcastic. I did not mean it that way, it was supposed to express my feeling of confusion and being a little at the mercy of bits and bytes that I am not able to control. No offence meant, I love Inkscape. I think it's enabling software; one of the most important OSS projects out there at the moment!
I think that is a great idea. I'd really like to have user polls on the front page of the website.
Who could I email to mention this to? I would also ask them to link to and promote the forum. I can't express how important a forum can be. Just go look at http://blenderartists.org/forum/
As I mentioned before, we have supplied semistatic packages before with much success.
Okay, I must have missed this. I did not sleep much (at all) last night, so am posting blind really! Perhaps you mean the autopackage? Still, a fully independent (huge overkill, it's understood!) tar.gz would hit the spot! Just thought of it, Blender does this too.
All of the packages available on our site are there because someone volunteered to create them. No one has volunteered to create RPMs for Fedora Core 3.
Don't suppose you get much call for FC at all though. If I manage a compile, I promise to learn how to make an rpm and then I'll contact ya ;)
Be cool, thanks for the info and the work. Donn
donn wrote:
This sounds amazing to me - that it's harder to find *all* the deps for Linux than it is for Windows. Is it simply because you are new to the game or is it something Linuxy?
Not at all, it is more of a reaction. Finding and building all these libs on windows is much much more difficult and time consuming. Add that to the fact that windows lacks a good package manager like can be found in any linux distro. Inkscape has made it a priority to give those interested in building on windows the easiest time possible. (In hopes that we could attract more win32 developers because a large portion of our user base ins win32 but only a very small portion of our developer base.) Thanks to the hard work of Bob Jamison in collecting the packages we have a wonderful situation. A windows developer requires only three (rather large) downloads to compile inkscape.
Bear with me, I am still a little confused here. I understand you to be saying that you are trying to attract win32 developers and that there is a really good system now for compiling for windows, but I don't quite get why a static tar.gz solution for Linux is not possible.
It is possible. No one has volunteered. You're effort would be welcome.
Package managers like apt have made it very simple to find and install dependencies on linux for a long time now. If you are having difficulties file a bug against your distro.
I would be a little foolish to file a bug against Fedora 3, since it is so old. One of the things that unsettles me about Linux is the rapid rate of change. Even ubuntu goes bang, bang, bang every 6 months or so. I am trying to squeeze more life out of FC3, I kinda told myself I would change-up every 2 years. Perhaps I am doing things wrong, I dunno.
Stop. If Core 3 is too old for you to expect Fedora to support it. How can you even begin to demand that we do? Ubuntu makes a new release every 6 months and supports them for 18 months. But you really can't expect to run the latest software on a system that is 18 months old.
Aaron Spike
Aaron Spike wrote:
Stop. If Core 3 is too old for you to expect Fedora to support it. How can you even begin to demand that we do? Ubuntu makes a new release every 6 months and supports them for 18 months. But you really can't expect to run the latest software on a system that is 18 months old.
FC3 was released in November 2004 and in January 2006 was transfered to Fedora Legacy, entering in maintenance mode, where only security and critical bug fixes are expected. Sad but true, is expected to have problems running bleeding edge software on it. On a related note, RHEL 4 is based on FC3, and neither on it one can't install Inkscape 0.44 (it may be possible to install 0.44.1)
FC3 was released in November 2004 and in January 2006 was transfered to Fedora Legacy, entering in maintenance mode, where only security and critical bug fixes are expected. Sad but true, is expected to have problems running bleeding edge software on it. On a related note, RHEL 4 is based on FC3, and neither on it one can't install Inkscape 0.44 (it may be possible to install 0.44.1)
Thanks for the info. I am mostly aware of this, and that is why I am on this line of enquiry.
If a static version (which would be what goes into the autopackage + some extra stuff, seems like libpng and libstdc++) could go into a tar.gz - perhaps inscape would run on my old dog of a distro.
Perhaps I'm not alone in this need? Not everyone can keep pace with the 6 monthly releases you know!
Donn.
On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 04:22:12PM +0200, donn wrote:
FC3 was released in November 2004 and in January 2006 was transfered to Fedora Legacy, entering in maintenance mode, where only security and critical bug fixes are expected. Sad but true, is expected to have problems running bleeding edge software on it. On a related note, RHEL 4 is based on FC3, and neither on it one can't install Inkscape 0.44 (it may be possible to install 0.44.1)
Thanks for the info. I am mostly aware of this, and that is why I am on this line of enquiry.
If a static version (which would be what goes into the autopackage + some extra stuff, seems like libpng and libstdc++) could go into a tar.gz - perhaps inscape would run on my old dog of a distro.
Perhaps I'm not alone in this need? Not everyone can keep pace with the 6 monthly releases you know!
I suspect generally we would anticipate that people who wish to avoid frequent upgrade cycles, would also be avoiding frequent upgrades to the latest versions of Inkscape as they come out. Similarly, it seems logical that people who wish to stay on the bleeding edge of a software project like Inkscape, would similarly be open to staying with fairly recent distros.
But the way Inkscape (or any open source project, really) works, is by people wishing to "scratch an itch". In other words, the project is strongest when many people with differing motivations cooperate. We've not had people with an itch to make inkscape work on older distros, so it is not too surprising to see that there are some issues with that. Thus, in theory you could help improve Inkscape by not giving in to the temptation to upgrade your distro, and instead focus on figuring out how to create a tarball package of Inkscape that works on FC3. It sounds like RHEL4 is based on FC3, so you could probably imagine your efforts would have fairly wide payoff.
If you do decide to go with the distro upgrade thing, and the idea of major upgrades every 6 months seems annoying, you might want to take a look at Debian or Ubuntu, because they have a somewhat different upgrade approach that makes it much easier to "upgrade as you go".
Bryce
Hi, all,
As one of the guys who was building static packages on FCx, I thought I'd add my $0.02 here. Or 2pf or whatever.
By "static", we only meant that all of the C++ libs were linked statically, including stdc++ itself. This is because different versions of G++ often have different binary interfaces, and we wanted to give the user one less thing to worry about. We added Boehm-GC also since it is small but rare on people's Linux boxes. But if you do 'ldd inkscape' you will see that there are still plenty of libraries upon which Inkscape depends.
You cannot properly link statically with Gtk+, even if you build it statically. Why? Because it loads sub-modules dynamically.
Also, you can't put recent versions of Gtk+ on older versions of X, since it expects certain libs to be available (-lXr is one if i recall correctly).
So, even if a package is delivered as "static", it might still depend on libs that are not present on a given distribution. If I make a static build on FC5, it will likely work on FC4, but not FC3. If I made one on FC4, then maybe. I would expect a build to be upwardly-compatible. Maybe someone wants to make static builds on FC1?
The way to get Inkscape to work on a platform that is not directly supported is, of course, to compile it yourself. For years, I thought that the only way to install new software on a box was to download, unpack, and then do the old dance: ./configure ; make ; make install
Start with Glib, work your way up to Gtkmm. Might take all day. ^^
Hey, it's more work, but it works when all others fail. And that's how it is done. Platforms are supported because there are people who are willing to contribute a little bit of time to fulfill a niche. We still need OpenVMS and Irix .
bob (ishmal)
On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 16:22:12 +0200, donn wrote:
If a static version (which would be what goes into the autopackage + some extra stuff, seems like libpng and libstdc++) could go into a tar.gz - perhaps inscape would run on my old dog of a distro.
In fact, autopackage does include libstdc++. If you rename your copy of /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 to something else, then uninstall autopackage itself "package remove autopackage-gtk autopackage" and try again, it may work.
This libstdc++ error is some binary compatibility thing I have not seen before, to me it implies that some new STL feature/symbol has been used that does not exist in early versions. Probably some header versioning thing again.
thanks -mike
In fact, autopackage does include libstdc++. If you rename your copy of /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 to something else, then uninstall autopackage itself "package remove autopackage-gtk autopackage" and try again, it may work.
Ooh. I would have no idea I could even do that. libstdc++ sounds so intimidating... so vital! I'll give it a go. I suppose I'll have to do the same to the libpng too. Lemme try, tah. I hope I don't fry my system.
Donn.
It is possible. No one has volunteered. You're effort would be welcome.
Well, that's not quite what I was saying. I still don't understand why all the elements needed to run Inkscape cannot be gathered into one folder such that it can be run on any distro. Firefox, Thunderbird and Blender all manage it. My tone is one of query. "I don't understand" does not mean I am pissed off.
Stop. If Core 3 is too old for you to expect Fedora to support it. How can you even begin to demand that we do? Ubuntu makes a new release every 6 months and supports them for 18 months. But you really can't expect to run the latest software on a system that is 18 months old.
I am not "demanding" anything. I am trying to ask a question. I fully appreciate that my distro is too old, even though this galls me as one.5 years is hardly old ... I can see why this is the cause for the autopackage failing. No problem - you have been clear.
I can't be the only one with an old distro and cold feet! Perhaps there are others out there, not only on Fedora, who would love the same kind of inkscape tar.gz package?
Come now, don't get irked with me. I'm not being unreasonable - I hope.
BTW, Anyone have any idea about who I can petition for those website issues?
Donn. South Africa.
I'm not irked or angry or bothered at all. Just giving shorter answers so that my point won't get lost in the words. :-)
A single tar.gz with all the dependencies should be possible.
If someone volunteers to create one, I'm sure inkscape would be happy to host it.
:-)
Aaron Spike
If someone volunteers to create one, I'm sure inkscape would be happy to host it.
Gotcha. Thanks.
Now we gotta find a somebody! I'm not really technical enough to do it, well not without major input.
A try: Is there some way for me to explode that autopackage file into a single folder? If so, perhaps those two files inkscape needs: libpng12.so.0: no version information available libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.4' not found
could be dropped into it and experiments can proceed from there?
Anyone have them two? Send them to me and I'll give it a go.
Donn.
donn wrote:
A try: Is there some way for me to explode that autopackage file into a single folder? If so, perhaps those two files inkscape needs: libpng12.so.0: no version information available libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.4' not found
could be dropped into it and experiments can proceed from there?
Anyone have them two? Send them to me and I'll give it a go.
I don't think it will be quite that easy. You'll probably have to build the all the dependencies and link them, static not dynamic libs. The "--prefix" issue will likely come into play here too. So you may want to investigate the tools developed by the Autopackage team to remedy this.
You may find help at: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingInkscape
and specificly: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingStatic
And remember you will have to start from the 0.44 branch in svn: svn co http://https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/inkscape/inkscape/branches/RELEAS... inkscape
Aaron Spike
I don't think it will be quite that easy. You'll probably have to build the all the dependencies and link them, static not dynamic libs. The "--prefix" issue will likely come into play here too. So you may want to investigate the tools developed by the Autopackage team to remedy this.
Aargh! And I can't compile 0.44 on FC3. Talk about a catch 22 :D I'll give it a go with 0.44.1, and thanks for the links.
One more question: Could this static dependency linked compilation not be made automatically by some kind of script when the other versions (like the debs and the autopackage) are created? It seems to be the place to do it. Even if I manage this thing it will only be a once-off, I might fall off the planet tomorrow and the thing stops.
Are there other dev on this list with an opinion/input?
Donn.
You wrote
Aargh! And I can't compile 0.44 on FC3. Talk about a catch 22 :D I'll give it a go with 0.44.1, and thanks for the links.
As I said in my earlier mail, a recent snapshot should work too.
Don't people read anymore?
You need not wait for 0.44.1, please go to www.inkscape.org, choose Download, Development Versions, Source Code packages. There are tarball snapshots that will have the same behaviour /wrt compilation on FC3 as 0.44.1 at the moment.
Regards, ralf
donn wrote:
One more question: Could this static dependency linked compilation not be made automatically by some kind of script when the other versions (like the debs and the autopackage) are created? It seems to be the place to do it.
Probably not. The volunteers making the other packages aren't making fully static builds. This would require someone who has set up their environment specifically for linking static builds. Making the current builds is more than enough to exhaust the current volunteers time and energy.
Aaron Spike
participants (7)
-
Aaron Spike -
Bob Jamison -
Bryce Harrington -
donn -
Mike Hearn -
Nicu Buculei (OCAL) -
Ralf Stephan