RE: [Inkscape-devel] [Fwd: Invitation to Participate in Summer of Code 2006]
From: bulia byak Sent: 15 April 2006 02:06
...
Doing these things via bitmaps may be acceptable as temporary workarounds (one of which I myself use, see doc/inkscape-shadow.README), but in the long run we should really concentrate on doing things the Right Way, which means the Vector Way. I know that, for example, Xara can use Photoshop plugins to process bitmaps, and it's good for eyecandy, but it never appealed to me because of its lack of genericity and overall clumsiness.
No, Xara does bitmap processing the Right Way, which means all bitmap effects can be applied to vector graphics in a completely transparent way. And that includes Photoshop plug-ins and built-in bitmap effects, and Xara bitmap plug-ins.
You can still fully edit your vector graphics and the system automatically, and transparently re-renders the bitmap effects. What's more the effects that can be resolution independent, so they are more like real vector effects - such as shadow, blur, feather etc. (Some Photoshop effects don't allow this because of their API) .
And you can apply multiple successive bitmap effects, and have full control over the order, and can edit or delete any effect in the effects stack. All these bitmap effect are applied and updated as you edit the underlying vectors. It took us more than a year to implement all this.
Clumsy it is not - it's been described as the best implementation of Live Effects that exists in any vector graphic product out there. As far as I know we're the only package than can apply resolution independent bitmap effects on the fly.
(This whole Live Effects system is new in Xara Xtreme and replaced all the old bitmap processing and all the old Photoshop plug-in interface code of Xara X, which is probably what you know Bulia)
Checkout the Live Effects tool next time you're near a Xara Xtreme (XaraLX doesn't have this ported yet, but now we've seen native Photoshop plug-ins working on Linux (at the Libre event) it looks as if we should be able to port it all. I believe the source code for all this is now public and GPL, just not ported or got working on XaraLX.
Now if you wanted a suggestion for some Google sponsored code that would benefit everyone, it would be a cross-platform open API to allow vector graphics products, such as our two products, to apply bitmap effects transparently to vector graphics. The Photoshop plug-in API is not just closed, it's over-complex, outdated and been superseded by an entirely closed new API from Adobe.
This would then allow us to call GIMP effects or ImageMagick effects or any third party effect plug-ins (the Photoshop plug-in system, although now outdated, was hugely successful. There are said to be more than 3000 different Photoshop plug-ins out there.)
Adobe has gone the closed, proprietary API for their plug-ins now. There is a gaping hole for a simple bitmap effects plug-in system that would work for both bitmap graphics programs and vector graphics ones.
Just my two penny's worth.
Charles
On 4/15/06, Charles Moir <CharlesM@...1042...> wrote:
No, Xara does bitmap processing the Right Way, which means all bitmap effects can be applied to vector graphics in a completely transparent way. And that includes Photoshop plug-ins and built-in bitmap effects, and Xara bitmap plug-ins.
You're right - in the latest version, indeed, Xara does bitmap processing the right way, so it is applicable to vector objects too and updated on the fly in resolution-independent way. It's indeed a huge improvement. What I remembered was the older Xara X version with which I worked, where all you had were Photoshop plugins applicable only to bitmap objects.
However, this does not completely invalidate what I have said. Yes, Xara does _bitmap_ processing correctly. But I'm much less interested in bitmap processing than in some object processing in general done in _vectors_. It's a huge difference. I want to be able to do at least the simple things such as brightness/contrast/HSL adjustments or blurring (not feathering!) on any object or a selection natively, in vector, without any external bitmap processing at all. And this is what Xara still cannot do (again, I apologize if I missed something in the latest version). Inkscape does not yet have it too, but I want us to work very actively toward implementing it. First things first: we need to do as much as possible in pure vector.
For example, one thing we're working on right now are Path Effects - purely vector, arbitrary path-to-path transformations done in SVG-compatilble way. They won't give us such eyecandy as some of your Live Effects, but IMHO they may be more useful in practical vector editing, doing things like on-the-fly nondestructive corner rounding, simplification, distortions, randomizing, etc. on paths. Of course the two approaches do not contradict; it is possible that one day we may get something like your via-bitmap Live Effects, whereas Xara will do Path Effects similar to Inkscape. I'm just mentioning this as an example of our slightly different focus.
Now if you wanted a suggestion for some Google sponsored code that would benefit everyone, it would be a cross-platform open API to allow vector graphics products, such as our two products, to apply bitmap effects transparently to vector graphics. The Photoshop plug-in API is not just closed, it's over-complex, outdated and been superseded by an entirely closed new API from Adobe.
This would then allow us to call GIMP effects or ImageMagick effects or any third party effect plug-ins (the Photoshop plug-in system, although now outdated, was hugely successful. There are said to be more than 3000 different Photoshop plug-ins out there.)
Adobe has gone the closed, proprietary API for their plug-ins now. There is a gaping hole for a simple bitmap effects plug-in system that would work for both bitmap graphics programs and vector graphics ones.
Just my two penny's worth.
I think it's a great idea, overall. Have you discussed it with Gimp or Krita developers?
However we (Inkscape) must stay within SVG, and at least SVG 1.1 does not seem to allow us to define external filters. There's only a set of predefined SVG filters that everyone must support. Perhaps it will be possible to implement external Live Effects in SVG-compatible way, same as we're now doing Path Effects in SVG-compatible way, but I don't think this will become our focus short-term, with so much basic and standard-prescribed stuff still missing. Of course I may be wrong, and a lot depends on how much interested developers we get.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
On 4/15/06, bulia byak wrote:
Adobe has gone the closed, proprietary API for their plug-ins now. There is a gaping hole for a simple bitmap effects plug-in system that would work for both bitmap graphics programs and vector graphics ones.
Just my two penny's worth.
I think it's a great idea, overall. Have you discussed it with Gimp or Krita developers?
I would add digikam developers to the list of potentially interested developers
Alexandre
Le Samedi 15 Avril 2006 11:14 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine a écrit :
On 4/15/06, bulia byak wrote:
Adobe has gone the closed, proprietary API for their plug-ins now. There is a gaping hole for a simple bitmap effects plug-in system that would work for both bitmap graphics programs and vector graphics ones.
Just my two penny's worth.
I think it's a great idea, overall. Have you discussed it with Gimp or Krita developers?
I would add digikam developers to the list of potentially interested developers
Well, please post a message to digikam-devel mailing list. Personally, i will busy to change home, release digikam 0.9.0, and others stuff. Perhaps others developpers will be interressed by this subject
Regards
Gilles Caulier
In browsing the code projects I came across this item: ----------------------------------------------------------------- SVG support in OpenOffice (not exactly Inkscape development, but would allow Inkscape users to paste in art rather than having to export to png and really promote usuage of Inkscape). Not to mention eliminating all those duplicate svg/png image files! -----------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to suggest a similar item along the lines of promoting InkScape use, and SVG in general, that involves Google directly. I think this is a good candidate for a SoC project that could be mentored by InkScape developers.
Google has opened a service recently called Google pages that allows google users to create their own web pages for free hosted by Google.
Like all other things touched by Google, this could become a major service.
Currently, in order to insert an image into Google Pages you go through an upload dialog. You can upload any file you want, but it you upload an SVG image the dialog warns you that the image type that you just uploaded (SVG) is not supported by most browsers. This is not true, SVG is supported by FireFox. Opera, Konqueror, Safari, Amaya, and with Adobe plugin support, IE.
Having uploaded the file, there is no easy way to insert it into your page. The file IS there, but the image dialog control does not address it. So, at this point, you can, if you are very savvy, get the image into your page. But, lo, it appears, the last time I checked, that Google does not have image/svg+xml set in their servers, so it won't be properly displayed anyway.
Project: Update the Google Pages interface to handle SVG and allow SVG images in Google Page content.
I see this as a three stage project that fits nicely within the scope of an SoC item.
1: Update the Google image manager to handle SVG images. I would suggest that the easiest way to do this is to create a png thumbnail at upload time. 2: Code proper insertion methods into the Google Pages editor, allow the user to take a default or specify one of the approved methods of insertion without having to directly edit raw html to get it in there. 3: and this one should be easy, set the mime type on Googles servers to handle SVG.
-- Cheers! Rick
Rick wrote:
Google has opened a service recently called Google pages that allows google users to create their own web pages for free hosted by Google.
Like all other things touched by Google, this could become a major service.
Currently, in order to insert an image into Google Pages you go through an upload dialog. You can upload any file you want, but it you upload an SVG image the dialog warns you that the image type that you just uploaded (SVG) is not supported by most browsers. This is not true, SVG is supported by FireFox. Opera, Konqueror, Safari, Amaya, and with Adobe plugin support, IE.
Having uploaded the file, there is no easy way to insert it into your page. The file IS there, but the image dialog control does not address it. So, at this point, you can, if you are very savvy, get the image into your page. But, lo, it appears, the last time I checked, that Google does not have image/svg+xml set in their servers, so it won't be properly displayed anyway.
I suspect this happens because SVG images are not treated as normal images (the <IMG> tag), to include them in HTML you have to use <OBJECT> and/or <EMBED>
Project: Update the Google Pages interface to handle SVG and allow SVG images in Google Page content.
The Google Pages interface is Open Source? I think not.
Also, Google itself is mentoring SoC projects, would not be that a better place for your idea? http://code.google.com/soc/google/about.html
Changing the subject to make it easier to keep track of the discussions.
On Sun, 16 Apr 2006, Nicu Buculei wrote:
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:15:53 +0300 From: Nicu Buculei <nicu@...398...> To: Inkscape Devs ML inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Cc: Rick <graham.rick@...400...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] [Fwd: Invitation to Participate in Summer of Code 2006]
Rick wrote:
Google has opened a service recently called Google pages that allows google users to create their own web pages for free hosted by Google.
if you upload an SVG image the dialog warns you that the image type that you just uploaded (SVG) is not supported by most browsers. This is not true, SVG is supported by FireFox. Opera, Konqueror, Safari, Amaya, and with Adobe plugin support, IE.
Project: Update the Google Pages interface to handle SVG and allow SVG images in Google Page content.
The Google Pages interface is Open Source? I think not.
All you can really do is file a request through standard channels and encourage other users to do so. Writing about it in your jounal if have one, would be a good way to draw attention to this.
Also can Picasa preview SVG Images? (I assume it doesn't and hasn't changed substantially since I last saw it, it is intended more for photos than as a general purpose image viewer after all.)
On 4/17/06, Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...> wrote:
Rick wrote:
Google has opened a service recently called Google pages that allows google users to create their own web pages for free hosted by Google.
if you upload an SVG image the dialog warns you that the image type that you just uploaded (SVG) is not supported by most browsers. This is not true, SVG is supported by FireFox. Opera, Konqueror, Safari, Amaya, and with Adobe plugin support, IE.
Project: Update the Google Pages interface to handle SVG and allow SVG images in Google Page content.
All you can really do is file a request through standard channels and encourage other users to do so. Writing about it in your jounal if have one, would be a good way to draw attention to this.
Also can Picasa preview SVG Images? (I assume it doesn't and hasn't changed substantially since I last saw it, it is intended more for photos than as a general purpose image viewer after all.)
-- Alan
I've made the SVG working group aware, Chris has contacted Google and they say they are looking into it, I've posted a SoC request with Google and suggested it here.
Anything anyone can do to make Google want to scratch that itch will help. It isn't a very difficult thing for them to do, but they have many things to do I'm sure, so the more places they hear about it from the more likely it is to get done.
Then we can post SVG on Google Pages.
Next...
-- Cheers! Rick
On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 07:55:20AM -0400, Rick wrote:
On 4/17/06, Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...> wrote:
Google has opened a service recently called Google pages that allows google users to create their own web pages for free hosted by Google.
if you upload an SVG image the dialog warns you that the image type that you just uploaded (SVG) is not supported by most browsers. This is not true, SVG is supported by FireFox. Opera, Konqueror, Safari, Amaya, and with Adobe plugin support, IE.
Project: Update the Google Pages interface to handle SVG and allow SVG images in Google Page content.
All you can really do is file a request through standard channels and encourage other users to do so. Writing about it in your jounal if have one, would be a good way to draw attention to this.
I've made the SVG working group aware, Chris has contacted Google and they say they are looking into it, I've posted a SoC request with Google and suggested it here.
As I think Alan alluded, it sounds like this may be more of a Google project than an inkscape project, but I think we'd be open to collaborating. Definitely let us know if you hear more from Google about this idea.
Bryce
On Saturday 15 April 2006 23:14, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On 4/15/06, bulia byak wrote:
Adobe has gone the closed, proprietary API for their plug-ins now. There is a gaping hole for a simple bitmap effects plug-in system that would work for both bitmap graphics programs and vector graphics ones.
Just my two penny's worth.
I think it's a great idea, overall. Have you discussed it with Gimp or Krita developers?
I would add digikam developers to the list of potentially interested developers
It's interesting -- but not easy! There's already an "open" specification for plugins, that's mostly used by close source things. Difficult points are: expose tiles or not, scanlines or not, iterators or not, and colorspaces. Oh, and plugins -- just filters, or also tools, colorspaces, effects, imp/exp filters? In Krita, everything can be a plugin :-)
That said, we need to do something. Adobe closing their API has really created a whopping big opportunity for something open and better to oust them :-).
The person in the Krita team who's best suited to discuss this is Cyrille Berger, not me.
I should be working on the OASIS pixel image proposal, but first it's going to be Easter next week, and I'll be too busy to read mail until Monday 24.
On Sat, 2006-04-15 at 12:01 +0100, Charles Moir wrote:
Now if you wanted a suggestion for some Google sponsored code that would benefit everyone, it would be a cross-platform open API to allow vector graphics products, such as our two products, to apply bitmap effects transparently to vector graphics. The Photoshop plug-in API is not just closed, it's over-complex, outdated and been superseded by an entirely closed new API from Adobe.
This would then allow us to call GIMP effects or ImageMagick effects or any third party effect plug-ins (the Photoshop plug-in system, although now outdated, was hugely successful. There are said to be more than 3000 different Photoshop plug-ins out there.)
Well, this may be a bad word, but I'm going to say it: GEGL
I realize that it is kinda a joke in that GIMP will use it someday, but I get the feeling that they are getting closer to switching to something close. GEGL was supposed to be the new bitmap rendering pipeline for GIMP 2.0 that never happened. But, if it was to happen, it would seem that we should be able to plug all the GIMP plugins in by supporting the GEGL interfaces for our bitmap data.
Anyone that went to the Libre Graphics Meeting have any more information on the realities of GEGL?
--Ted
On Apr 15, 2006, at 6:42 PM, Ted Gould wrote:
Anyone that went to the Libre Graphics Meeting have any more information on the realities of GEGL?
Well... it looked to me like Pippin had done much of the stuff that GEGL was missing, and thus has what's needed to get it going. His demo was very impressive, especially once I figured out is whole presentation was zooming and panning in a single, huge bitmap. Oh, and the app he was doing it with was one he did for those nice linux nokia handhelds, so its performance is decent.
My guess would be that once the next rev of Gimp is actually out the door, he has all the parts needed to get it into the dev builds within a few months. Now, time to get it done is, as always, the killer.
participants (11)
-
Alan Horkan -
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Boudewijn Rempt -
Bryce Harrington -
bulia byak -
Caulier Gilles -
Charles Moir -
Jon A. Cruz -
Nicu Buculei -
Rick -
Ted Gould