Re: [Inkscape-devel] Tango icons as default set
I've made some changes and tweaks according to the suggestions that several people made. Here is a screenshot with the latest changes (on the right side):
http://www.ohweb.com.ar/screenshots/Inkscape/Tango-Icons-Colors.png
I'm not sure about the dark strokes. They have a lighter outline for dark themes, but that makes them look blurred. Removing the outlines and keeping the dark color will make them useless for dark themes, so there's no way out: It's white with a grey outline like the original Tango set, or the middle gray with dark strokes (a.k.a. Bulia's spaghettis :-)
What do you think?
Gez.
Guillermo Espertino wrote:
I've made some changes and tweaks according to the suggestions that several people made. Here is a screenshot with the latest changes (on the right side):
http://www.ohweb.com.ar/screenshots/Inkscape/Tango-Icons-Colors.png
I'm not sure about the dark strokes. They have a lighter outline for dark themes, but that makes them look blurred. Removing the outlines and keeping the dark color will make them useless for dark themes, so there's no way out: It's white with a grey outline like the original Tango set, or the middle gray with dark strokes (a.k.a. Bulia's spaghettis :-)
What do you think?
Perhaps it is familiarity, but I do like the angled tool icons that resemble the default icons better. Are you willing to make screenshots with a dark theme? I think this will strengthen the case for Tango. :-)
Aaron Spike
Guillermo Espertino wrote the following on 1/27/2009 11:25 AM:
I've made some changes and tweaks according to the suggestions that several people made. Here is a screenshot with the latest changes (on the right side):
http://www.ohweb.com.ar/screenshots/Inkscape/Tango-Icons-Colors.png
I'm not sure about the dark strokes. They have a lighter outline for dark themes, but that makes them look blurred. Removing the outlines and keeping the dark color will make them useless for dark themes, so there's no way out: It's white with a grey outline like the original Tango set, or the middle gray with dark strokes (a.k.a. Bulia's spaghettis :-)
What do you think?
Gez.
I really like where you are going with these Tango icons, Guillermo. One thing that I'm not crazy about is the purple 3D box icon. I think it stands out too much. Couldn't the rectangle, 3D box, circle, and polygon tool all be made in the same colors...say blues...instead of having different colors? As it stands now, the icons look like a bunch of Lucky Charms (which are delicious and I love).
What I like about the Tango theme on the far left is that the shape tools all have consistent colors, grays. Perhaps gray is not the best color though. I was thinking if yours were blue then perhaps it would look a bit more conservative and consistent.
My two cents. :)
heathenx
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Guillermo Espertino <gespertino@...400...> wrote:
I've made some changes and tweaks according to the suggestions that several people made. Here is a screenshot with the latest changes (on the right side):
http://www.ohweb.com.ar/screenshots/Inkscape/Tango-Icons-Colors.png
The more you tweak them, the more the are like the old ones :) Which, to me, is good :)
I have almost no problems with the rightmost column, except that I think all shape tools must be desaturated by about 50%. Not gray, but not those slapstick colors either. Tango is still blurrier than current set, unfortunately, but perhaps this is something I could live with (though if it can be made crisper, I don't think anyone would object).
On 2009-January-27 , at 17:25 , Guillermo Espertino wrote:
I'm not sure about the dark strokes. They have a lighter outline for dark themes, but that makes them look blurred. Removing the outlines and keeping the dark color will make them useless for dark themes, so there's no way out: It's white with a grey outline like the original Tango set, or the middle gray with dark strokes (a.k.a. Bulia's spaghettis :-)
I kind of like the blurry look. But: - could you take a screenshot against a dark theme, to see whether having just a grey outline is enough to make the stroke stand against the background. You might have to go all the way to white (and that would take care of the blur at the same time) - you made the new icons closer to the old ones for the pen, bezier and calligraphy tools. That's very nice IMHO. but this makes the handle of the node in the bezier tool be a 1 px grey line. This will probably be hard to make on a dark background again. Could you try outlining it with light grey/white also? - in the case of the gradient tool, on the contrary, I think the icon would look better with just a thin hairline rather than the thick diagonal one. In this case you know what the background will be (it is the gradient) so you can afford a one pixel line. This would make more of the gradient show through and might make it clearer what the tool actually is. Yet, I am not sure whether this metaphor is the best one (but that's another problem).
JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/
Guillermo Espertino wrote:
I've made some changes and tweaks according to the suggestions that several people made. Here is a screenshot with the latest changes (on the right side):
http://www.ohweb.com.ar/screenshots/Inkscape/Tango-Icons-Colors.png
I'm not sure about the dark strokes. They have a lighter outline for dark themes, but that makes them look blurred. Removing the outlines and keeping the dark color will make them useless for dark themes, so there's no way out: It's white with a grey outline like the original Tango set, or the middle gray with dark strokes (a.k.a. Bulia's spaghettis :-)
What do you think?
I don't see the reason for this whole tango "push". What is so special / magical about "tango". To regular users like us what does it achieve ? (with the exception of consistency with gimp which I said should maybe change to using the better Inkscape icons). It reminds me of how Windows keeps changing the user interface every version upsetting and confusing users just to sell something new. The proposed tango icons are not as clear, looked washed out, .... The node icon is worse. The diagram icon is near invisible, likewise gradient, eyedropper. Now all you're trying to do is tweak them to look more like the original inkscape icons - what's the point??? Sorry if it was someone's contribution to try to improve things, but time would be better spent on more productive things.
I don't see the reason for this whole tango "push". What is so special / magical about "tango". To regular users like us what does it achieve ? (with the exception of consistency with gimp which I said should maybe change to using the better Inkscape icons).
Nothing magic or special. Just look the whole set (not just the toolbar ones) and see which is more consistent across the application. The oficial set has variations in different icons that make it look more like a bunch of different icons put together than a single set. Of course current Tango proposals have room for improvements, nobody says they're perfect. Just better based on certain technical aspects. (I repeated what those aspects are several times, check the previous messages)
It reminds me of how Windows keeps changing the user interface every version upsetting and confusing users just to sell something new.
The goal of Tango icons is to avoid that, and feel different apps "familiar". If every program has different icon sets based on personal preferences of their makers every time you learn a new program you have to get used to new icons look.
The proposed tango icons are not as clear, looked washed out, .... The node icon is worse. The diagram icon is near invisible, likewise gradient, eyedropper. Now all you're trying to do is tweak them to look more like the original inkscape icons - what's the point???
The point is reach a point of agreement between tangoers and people who want the current set. People who want Tango prefer the Art Libre set without modifications; people who want the current set prefer the current set without modifications. A Tango set with an appearance similar to the current set is a sort of intermediate that might make both happy.
Sorry if it was someone's contribution to try to improve things, but time would be better spent on more productive things.
Saying that others wasted their time just because you don't like the outcome is not very polite. Actually, you should be using the time it takes to write this message to improve the current set and fix several consistency problems. :-p
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 3:12 AM, MilesTogoe <miles.togoe@...400...> wrote:
Guillermo Espertino wrote:
I've made some changes and tweaks according to the suggestions that several people made. Here is a screenshot with the latest changes (on the right side):
http://www.ohweb.com.ar/screenshots/Inkscape/Tango-Icons-Colors.png
I'm not sure about the dark strokes. They have a lighter outline for dark themes, but that makes them look blurred. Removing the outlines and keeping the dark color will make them useless for dark themes, so there's no way out: It's white with a grey outline like the original Tango set, or the middle gray with dark strokes (a.k.a. Bulia's spaghettis :-)
What do you think?
I don't see the reason for this whole tango "push". What is so special / magical about "tango".
I don't give a flying flip about Tango. I just think some of the current icons look sad. Like the circle with it's alias-y border. Or the cryptic tsunami icon. And now it's clear thanks to the recent screenshot from Guillermo that the current icons also perform poorly on dark backgrounds.
So I see this just as making improvements to the icons, period. If some people think it will make inkscape more consistent too, then great. But as a Windows user who doesn't use any other Tango-fied programs, the consistency does not mean much to me. I admit I don't really get why some people are pushing so hard for Tango icons either, and I was not willing to swallow it when the argument was "these are Tango style, therefore better". But now that Guillermo is actually working to make the icons stand on their own merits rather than appealing to dogmatic Tango-ism, I'm all for it.
--bb
</lurk>
MilesTogoe wrote:
I don't see the reason for this whole tango "push". What is so special / magical about "tango". To regular users like us what does it achieve ?
to the few of us who actually prefer the Tango icons, a smile.
The proposed tango icons are not as clear, looked washed out, .... The node icon is worse. The diagram icon is near invisible, likewise gradient, eyedropper.
you do have the right to dislike something and state it (though i do find your terms harsh towards something that's pretty much a labour of love); but please don't try to state your taste as a fact. I disagree with all of your points -- i find the icons pretty clear, and personally like the new versions a *lot* better and easier on my eyes. I know what i like, you know what you like.
the question in the end, is whether Inkscape could accomodate both our tastes. A config entry and Preferences setting for choosing from icon themes seems to me the most sensible answer -- definitely easier than manually overriding the existing icon set. And there's not just 'Tango' and 'Default', some of us might have other perspectives as what we want to see on our screens.
But for this, of course someone needs to code it. In the mean time, i'm perfectly content to accept the devs' taste and choice to set the application look and feel as they see fit; and in the meantime, the Tango icons will be sitting in my ~/.inkscape/icons. And there's some tweaks i'd like to make to the icons myself -- it would be ace to be able to easily switch the theme from inside.
but time would be better spent on more productive things.
well, some people do want to be productive designing icons! Even if one does not get the purpose of someone's effort, the 'why waste time on small stuff when there's bugs to be fixed' argument is pretty unfair and shortsighted.
most of us enjoy doing different kinds of tasks, and in the end some might prefer hacking on C++, some might prefer tweaking icons, and some might enjoy looking for typos in the docs. And given that most are coding, drawing and writing in their personal free time (be it for love, reputation, money and whatnot), i really don't agree with the tone of some of the critique that has been made over this discussion.
i am loving this thread, but i find that some issues are being overblown.
just my 2 cents, :r
On 2009-January-27 , at 20:20 , ricardo lafuente wrote:
I know what i like, you know what you like.
I think the more this thread goes on, the more it underlines this very point. Both icon sets have merits and issues, but both are good to a point that choosing between them comes to taste rather than a clear discussion of arguments. And by "taste" I do not only mean esthetics, I also mean whether one values consistency over strong visual identity for example.
Given that, I don't think there will really be an end to this type of discussion. But a possible way to decide would be to use the wonderful and large community that has been built around Inkscape.
The Tango theme, as well as the current one, could be tweaked and improved, continuing what a few people have done already and considering criteria that are as objective as possible, such as: - consistency of icons within Inkscape - keeping visual metaphors close to the ones currently used, to avoid a too disruptive change - performance on dark backgrounds - aliasing of outlines This thread could be used to collect suggestions along these lines (as it already has). Tweaking should be done with a time goal, otherwise it will never end. Say another 2-3 weeks. Once this is done, detailed screenshots are made of the two and a call for a vote is passed to the whole Inkscape community: - a news item is posted on the front page - posts are made on the users, devs, testers, translators etc. mailing lists - a poll is set up on the various forums, deviant art community etc. People vote (on a google docs powered form for example) anonymously and without justifying their vote. The point is not to start a Inkscape-community wide flamewar but to get the opinion of the majority. After a voting period (1-2 weeks), the votes are counted and the winner is kept as default. I am not sure the majority is right in every situation but, in this type of choice, a large enough vote ensures that the default theme pleases as many people as possible. On a taste issue, it almost seems like the only solution.
I am only proposing this here as a way to save everyone's time and to avoid further slipping towards strong feelings and strong words. I can post to Inkscape user, user-fr, dev. For this to work it would take some kind of agreement here that it is a sane decision, a couple of people working on each icon set, and synchronization with other folks to post the polls/new items on the various websites at the correct time. Who wants to help?
JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/
PS:
[...] And there's not just 'Tango' and 'Default', some of us might have other perspectives as what we want to see on our screens.
Choice is good, but choice is also clutter and adding a pref for that would make Inkscape preferences even more complicated, while there is already a solution to this with ~/.inkscape/icons. This situation seems like a good candidate for "give the best possible default to most users and let power users tweak them in a less obvious way". And, for complete disclosure, this is coming from someone who does not necessarily love any of the two possible sets. I still find them too much in-your-face for a design app. I would prefer a black/grey/white theme a la Adobe which would only leave colors on my canvas and I actually started one. But I still think the best decision would be to avoid yet another pref.
Ricardo: +1 to your whole message.
</lurk>
MilesTogoe wrote:
I don't see the reason for this whole tango "push". What is so special / magical about "tango". To regular users like us what does it achieve ?
to the few of us who actually prefer the Tango icons, a smile.
The proposed tango icons are not as clear, looked washed out, .... The node icon is worse. The diagram icon is near invisible, likewise gradient, eyedropper.
you do have the right to dislike something and state it (though i do find your terms harsh towards something that's pretty much a labour of love); but please don't try to state your taste as a fact. I disagree with all of your points -- i find the icons pretty clear, and personally like the new versions a *lot* better and easier on my eyes. I know what i like, you know what you like.
the question in the end, is whether Inkscape could accomodate both our tastes. A config entry and Preferences setting for choosing from icon themes seems to me the most sensible answer -- definitely easier than manually overriding the existing icon set. And there's not just 'Tango' and 'Default', some of us might have other perspectives as what we want to see on our screens.
But for this, of course someone needs to code it. In the mean time, i'm perfectly content to accept the devs' taste and choice to set the application look and feel as they see fit; and in the meantime, the Tango icons will be sitting in my ~/.inkscape/icons. And there's some tweaks i'd like to make to the icons myself -- it would be ace to be able to easily switch the theme from inside.
but time would be better spent on more productive things.
well, some people do want to be productive designing icons! Even if one does not get the purpose of someone's effort, the 'why waste time on small stuff when there's bugs to be fixed' argument is pretty unfair and shortsighted.
most of us enjoy doing different kinds of tasks, and in the end some might prefer hacking on C++, some might prefer tweaking icons, and some might enjoy looking for typos in the docs. And given that most are coding, drawing and writing in their personal free time (be it for love, reputation, money and whatnot), i really don't agree with the tone of some of the critique that has been made over this discussion.
i am loving this thread, but i find that some issues are being overblown.
just my 2 cents, :r
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With an icon theme selector, you could have a set that's practically the same for dark/light themes except things like the outlines.
JF
Guillermo Espertino wrote:
I've made some changes and tweaks according to the suggestions that several people made. Here is a screenshot with the latest changes (on the right side):
http://www.ohweb.com.ar/screenshots/Inkscape/Tango-Icons-Colors.png
I'm not sure about the dark strokes. They have a lighter outline for dark themes, but that makes them look blurred. Removing the outlines and keeping the dark color will make them useless for dark themes, so there's no way out: It's white with a grey outline like the original Tango set, or the middle gray with dark strokes (a.k.a. Bulia's spaghettis :-)
What do you think?
Gez.
This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Guillermo Espertino <gespertino@...360...> writes:
I've made some changes and tweaks according to the suggestions that several people made. Here is a screenshot with the latest changes (on the right side):
http://www.ohweb.com.ar/screenshots/Inkscape/Tango-Icons-Colors.png
Great work, Guillermo! I have a couple of suggestions. First, I think the gradient tool has to be a contrasty black-to-white gradient. this has been the standard icon for the gradient tool in several applications and will be easily identified by professionals. In other words, just keep the original icon from the art libre set, and perhaps make the gradient more pronounced (darker gray on the dark side of the gradient). The line with two end nodes is redundant in my opinion. And if you wonder why I didn't do that when I worked on this theme myself, well, I'm not perfect :)
Second thing, when I drew the icons for the three finite/infinite line buttons for the 3d box tool, I made a mistake withthe line colors. They should now be changed - the twin green line should be blue, the twin blue line should be yellow.
participants (11)
-
Aaron Spike -
Bill Baxter -
bulia byak -
Guillermo Espertino -
heathenx -
jiho -
Joel Holdsworth -
Joshua Facemyer -
Michael Grosberg -
MilesTogoe -
ricardo lafuente