Proposed changes to Keyboard shortcuts
=== Patch first ===
The Patch https://sourceforge.net/tracker/download.php?group_id=93438&atid=604308&...
The Patch assigns F1 to Help, Keys and moves some other keys around mapping them to ones used by Xara.
The tracker request https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1326159&gr...
=== Ask questions later ===
(And these are just for starters)
Inkscape has keybindings for almost everything which makes it very hard to change anything without having consequences, it is worse than a Rubiks cube. I tried to make changes as non invasive as possible but it was difficult.
I may not use Inkscape every day but it is precisely for that reason I find it so important to try and get inkscape to use Keybindings which resemble those used by other applications. F1 for Help was one of the first and most important keybindings I learnt (and hitting Esc like a madman anytime something went wrong was probably the second). It is not just about F1 but it seems like a place to start. Beginners and new users face a much steeper learning curve if Inkscape uses different conventions from other applications. I realise an changes will be uncomfortable for existing users but no one ever claimed Inkscape was ready for stable 1.0 and not going to change things around. Experienced users should know inkscape will be subject to changes and they are exactly the people best able to adapt to changes and if we are lucky they might even like the changes because they make inkscape a little more like Xara.
The long term solution is of course to have fully switchable keyboard profiles. That doesn't change the need for good defaults and I hope by trying out these ideas (even if they need to be reverted before the next release) it will encourage people who do not like it to come up with better suggestions rather than blocking changes.
Using F1 for help is a convention used by Windows, Mac OS X, Gnome, KDE. The changes make Inkscape more like Xara [1] in particular.
Precedent is significant but if we at least try out the change we can get a better idea of the impact. If people really hate the change and it has to be reverted it will at least help show the need for different keyboard shortcut profiles sooner rather than later.
There are many more things which could be said about this but please lets try it and come up with ways to do it better rather than not doing it at all.
(bulia mentioned his displeasure at the choice of Zoom key which I expect could be addressed parallel to this by providing other Zoom functionality but I think that may need seperate discussion.)
Sincerely
Alan Horkan
Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Dia http://gnome.org/projects/dia/ Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org
Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/
[1] Keyboard Shortcuts for Xara http://www.xaraxone.com/html/tip_of_the_week_4.html http://www.xaraxone.com/assets/images/tip_30.gif (I have a text reference of the Xara shortcuts too somwhere, if anyone has a reference for Corel I'd appreciate it too.)
On 10/14/05, Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...> wrote:
=== Patch first ===
The Patch https://sourceforge.net/tracker/download.php?group_id=93438&atid=604308&...
The Patch assigns F1 to Help, Keys and moves some other keys around mapping them to ones used by Xara.
It would be very helpful if you just gave a full list of old and new key assignments here. Not everyone can read patches, and not everyone has Xara.
The long term solution is of course to have fully switchable keyboard profiles. That doesn't change the need for good defaults and I hope by trying out these ideas (even if they need to be reverted before the next release) it will encourage people who do not like it to come up with better suggestions rather than blocking changes.
Like I said in the bug, any wholesale key reassignment patch is only acceptable if it adds a preference option making it possible to use the old layout as well (in the absense of proper keyboard profile switcher, that is). Whether the new layout becomes on by default depends on how much support it gathers, but in any case, it must not be pushed down my throat if I prefer the old one.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, bulia byak wrote:
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:16:19 -0300 From: bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> To: Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...> Cc: Inkscape is a vector graphics editor inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Proposed changes to Keyboard shortcuts
On 10/14/05, Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...> wrote:
=== Patch first ===
The Patch
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/download.php?group_id=93438&atid=604308&...
The Patch assigns F1 to Help, Keys and moves some other keys around mapping them to ones used by Xara.
It would be very helpful if you just gave a full list of old and new key assignments here. Not everyone can read patches,
Okay. I'll attempt to explain it futher. It aint poetry but here it is:
F1 was used by the Selector F2 is now used for the Selector
F2 was used by the Node tool F4 is now used for the Node tool
F3 was used for the Zoom tool Shift F7 is now used for the Zoom tool (as well as other keybindings)
F4 was used for the Rectangle tool Shift F3 is now used for the Rectangle tool
F5 was used for the Arc/Ellipse tool Shift F4 is now used for the Arc/Ellipse tool
previously F1 was used by the Selector F1 now used by Help Keys
It is hard to visualise or imagine it which is why I'd be much happier if it could be commited for a while and we could have some test binaries to for people to play with. Isn't that the whole point of the patch now ask questions later policy?
and not everyone has Xara
In the footnote I link to a page which covers a short keyboard reference for Xara. I hope to provide a full list in a day or two.
The long term solution is of course to have fully switchable keyboard profiles. That doesn't change the need for good defaults and I hope by trying out these ideas (even if they need to be reverted before the next release) it will encourage people who do not like it to come up with better suggestions rather than blocking changes.
Like I said in the bug, any wholesale key reassignment patch is only acceptable if it adds a preference option making it possible to use the old layout as well
Does everyone feel that way? Are other changes held to such a high standard? If every change was required to maintain the old behaviour it would be a lot tougher to make progress. Inkscape version 0.42 will always provide the old layout.
I have already suggested this could be tried out and reverted before 0.43 if you people feel very strongly about it. Putting it in even for a while might encourage people to discuss it and come up with better ideas.
(in the absense of proper keyboard profile switcher, that is). Whether
No one disagrees keyboard profiles will be needed in the long run, I think we can safely say that much. Ideally there would be a visible user interface for assigning keybindigns and switching profiles, at least part of which is offered in recent versions of the GNU Image manipulation program. Older versions offered a menurc file as do various other GTK applications (gtk actions or summink?). If Inkscape were saving keyboard shortcuts to a runtime configuration file rather than having them hardcoded it would greately increase what non-developers could do. It might even enable us to put together various profiles before the full profile switching infrastructure is available. Maybe it is not as hard as one might think to move this area forward in some small incremental way?
the new layout becomes on by default depends on how much support it gathers, but in any case, it must not be pushed down my throat if I prefer the old one.
It is not about just you or just me and I do sincerely believe these changes will improve things for a wider audience. Given your enthusiastic comments for Xara over the past few months I'm amazed you are not happier or even enthusiastic about these changes which more than anything else make inkscape more like Xara.
Sincerely
Alan Horkan
Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Dia http://gnome.org/projects/dia/ Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org
Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/
On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 11:04:34PM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:
The Patch assigns F1 to Help, Keys and moves some other keys around mapping them to ones used by Xara.
It would be very helpful if you just gave a full list of old and new key assignments here. Not everyone can read patches,
Okay. I'll attempt to explain it futher. It aint poetry but here it is:
F1 was used by the Selector F2 is now used for the Selector
F2 was used by the Node tool F4 is now used for the Node tool
F3 was used for the Zoom tool Shift F7 is now used for the Zoom tool (as well as other keybindings)
F4 was used for the Rectangle tool Shift F3 is now used for the Rectangle tool
F5 was used for the Arc/Ellipse tool Shift F4 is now used for the Arc/Ellipse tool
previously F1 was used by the Selector F1 now used by Help Keys
Thanks for listing the changes. I am not a heavy keyboard user, so don't know if my input matters much on this, but all these changes look fine to me. I really like the idea of mapping F1 to Help, even if it requires shifting some of the other F-key shortcuts around. I think since we have such good help in Inkscape, the easier we can make it for users to access it, the better it'd be for everyone.
The long term solution is of course to have fully switchable keyboard profiles. That doesn't change the need for good defaults and I hope by trying out these ideas (even if they need to be reverted before the next release) it will encourage people who do not like it to come up with better suggestions rather than blocking changes.
Like I said in the bug, any wholesale key reassignment patch is only acceptable if it adds a preference option making it possible to use the old layout as well
Does everyone feel that way? Are other changes held to such a high standard? If every change was required to maintain the old behaviour it would be a lot tougher to make progress. Inkscape version 0.42 will always provide the old layout.
I don't feel that way. I do think it's a good idea to use the preferences for enabling users to control how things work, so these are certainly good ideas and recommendations, but it seems to be establishing unusually high standards for this particular change... But that aside, I think you'd find making new preferences to be fairly straightforward and a useful thing to learn. It sounds like if this is done, you and Bulia will have come to an acceptable compromise, which is good.
I have already suggested this could be tried out and reverted before 0.43 if you people feel very strongly about it. Putting it in even for a while might encourage people to discuss it and come up with better ideas.
I suspect this might be best done as part of the 0.44 development; since 0.43 is nearing completion, folks won't have much time to try this change out before the release.
Bryce
On 10/14/05, Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...> wrote:
F3 was used for the Zoom tool Shift F7 is now used for the Zoom tool (as well as other keybindings)
I object (even though Xara has it that way). Zoom is a very common operation.
F4 was used for the Rectangle tool Shift F3 is now used for the Rectangle tool
F5 was used for the Arc/Ellipse tool Shift F4 is now used for the Arc/Ellipse tool
I object (even though Xara has it that way). I can live with ellipses on a shift-key, but rectangle is a very common operation.
Overall, I would accept those keys but only if they are a part of a _complete_ Xara-like keyboard profile. Changing just a few keys to map to Xara, but leaving all others unchanged, strikes me as almost useless. It's like cutting off a dog's tail in small pieces.
Like I said in the bug, any wholesale key reassignment patch is only acceptable if it adds a preference option making it possible to use the old layout as well
Does everyone feel that way? Are other changes held to such a high standard? If every change was required to maintain the old behaviour it would be a lot tougher to make progress.
Of course not all changes are treated like that. But this is a very sensitive area that affects every single user. Even minor keybinding changes need to be discussed before implementation, but these are not minor at all.
It's certainly an area where more options is better than less options, but only provided that these options are internally consistent and have some serious justification for existence (examples of such justification include complete - not partial - correspondence to an existing app such as Xara). Just changing a bunch of major keys unconditionally is certainly not acceptable.
Inkscape version 0.42 will always provide the old layout.
Oh thank you. You're so generous.
I have already suggested this could be tried out and reverted before 0.43 if you people feel very strongly about it. Putting it in even for a while might encourage people to discuss it and come up with better ideas.
Some of us use CVS inkscape every day for real work, you know. You can provide your own binaries for people to test, any time. But committing a patch that has a too high chance of being reverted is not productive. And your patch, as I just explained, has a 100% chance of being reverted unless you add to it a way to keep using the old layout.
Maybe it is not as hard as one might think to move this area forward in some small incremental way?
Of course, this is what I'm trying to tell you. It's very easy to add a prefs checkbox saying "Use Xara-like keyboard shortcuts". The Xara layout would be also hardcoded, but this is not a big problem for now, since Xara's keys are not going to change. If you feel so passionate about that, why don't you do it, or convince anyone else to do it? (Note that you'll also need to provide a complete documentation of your layout, in the form of a keys-xara.xml file modeled on the existing keys.xml.)
It is not about just you or just me and I do sincerely believe these changes will improve things for a wider audience. Given your enthusiastic comments for Xara over the past few months I'm amazed you are not happier or even enthusiastic about these changes which more than anything else make inkscape more like Xara.
I explained that many times. It's not my goal to make Inkscape like Xara. My goal is to make the best vector editor. For that, I borrow ideas which I consider worthy from wherever I find them.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 07:51:37PM -0300, bulia byak wrote:
On 10/14/05, Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...> wrote:
F3 was used for the Zoom tool Shift F7 is now used for the Zoom tool (as well as other keybindings)
I object (even though Xara has it that way). Zoom is a very common operation.
It is a very common operation, but nearly all the zoom operations are already mapped to the number keys and to +/- anyway, so in practice I find the zoom tool itself is not that needed.
F4 was used for the Rectangle tool Shift F3 is now used for the Rectangle tool
F5 was used for the Arc/Ellipse tool Shift F4 is now used for the Arc/Ellipse tool
I object (even though Xara has it that way). I can live with ellipses on a shift-key, but rectangle is a very common operation.
Overall, I would accept those keys but only if they are a part of a _complete_ Xara-like keyboard profile. Changing just a few keys to map to Xara, but leaving all others unchanged, strikes me as almost useless. It's like cutting off a dog's tail in small pieces.
What are your proposals for mappings?
Of course not all changes are treated like that. But this is a very sensitive area that affects every single user. Even minor keybinding changes need to be discussed before implementation, but these are not minor at all.
I think you are a bit too close to the problem. You have extremely strong preferences for the keyboard shortcuts, so it probably seems like it is extremely critical. However, I don't think you have any data to support the assertion that it affects every user. Case in point, it does not affect me since I don't use the F-keys when using Inkscape. I'm sure I'm not alone.
Please realize that by making the process of proposing keyboard changes be such a gauntlet to run, you risk a situation where we end up with an Inkscape that is very well optimized for Bulia, but poorly optimized for the general user. Only by making it straightforward for other users to make tweaks to the keyboard layout can we be certain that we are optimizing the application for all users.
Bryce
On 10/14/05, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> wrote:
It is a very common operation, but nearly all the zoom operations are already mapped to the number keys and to +/- anyway, so in practice I find the zoom tool itself is not that needed.
True for professional users. Newbies may still use Zoom tool quite often.
What are your proposals for mappings?
Like I said - just make a complete profile with Xara keys. Of course it's not 1:1 because some things have no correspondence, but we can try to be as close as possible. This will (1) solve the F1 problem and (2) be a first step towards the grand Xara/Inkscape merge that we all talk so much about recently. I think these advantages are well worth it. But just uprooting F1 and some adjacent keys is not enough justification for a change, IMHO.
I think you are a bit too close to the problem. You have extremely strong preferences for the keyboard shortcuts, so it probably seems like it is extremely critical. However, I don't think you have any data to support the assertion that it affects every user. Case in point, it does not affect me since I don't use the F-keys when using Inkscape. I'm sure I'm not alone.
Case in point, when MS Word wanted to lure WordPerfect users, it made a compatibility mode with WordPerfect key mappings.
Secondly, if something matters even to a minority, we cannot bluntly disregard this minority. We are not a commercial entity who might afford to do that.
Please realize that by making the process of proposing keyboard changes be such a gauntlet to run
What are you talking about, Bryce? Did I make it too diffucult for Alan to propose his changes here? Nope, in fact he did so on my urging. Do I have to abstain from criticizing his proposal? Why?
Only by making it straightforward for other users to make tweaks to the keyboard layout can we be certain that we are optimizing the application for all users.
Certainly. In other words, if you feel so passionate about that, implement keyboard profiles. This way you can easily optimize it for ALL users. The patch we've seen so far just makes it Alan-optimized instead of Bulia-optimized, nothing more. Sorry this is not the correct way to go.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 08:34:22PM -0300, bulia byak wrote:
On 10/14/05, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> wrote:
It is a very common operation, but nearly all the zoom operations are already mapped to the number keys and to +/- anyway, so in practice I find the zoom tool itself is not that needed.
True for professional users. Newbies may still use Zoom tool quite often.
I would argue that similarly, Newbies would be using the Zoom tool via the icon, rather than the keyboard shortcut, but I think neither of us have any data to support our positions.
What are your proposals for mappings?
Like I said - just make a complete profile with Xara keys. Of course it's not 1:1 because some things have no correspondence, but we can try to be as close as possible. This will (1) solve the F1 problem and (2) be a first step towards the grand Xara/Inkscape merge that we all talk so much about recently. I think these advantages are well worth it. But just uprooting F1 and some adjacent keys is not enough justification for a change, IMHO.
Well, that's a good proposal, but I was thinking more along the lines of alternate proposals for those two particular keys.
One could also equally well argue the inverse - for Xara/Inkscape merge considerations, the primary key mappings should start migrating in that direction, and that if people wish to retain the current mappings, then that should be the one done as an overlay profile.
Secondly, if something matters even to a minority, we cannot bluntly disregard this minority. We are not a commercial entity who might afford to do that.
Of course, this same logic could be applied to Alan; he may be the minority, and rejecting his patch and suggestions is equivalent to disregarding his minority.
Please realize that by making the process of proposing keyboard changes be such a gauntlet to run
What are you talking about, Bryce? Did I make it too diffucult for Alan to propose his changes here? Nope, in fact he did so on my urging. Do I have to abstain from criticizing his proposal? Why?
Actually yes, IMHO, you are making it difficult to propose changes. Alan's original goal was simply to propose that F1 should be mapped to Help. A lot of applications use this key for help, so it's not that exotic of an idea; indeed, it makes Inkscape more conformant with GUI software in general.
He had initially brought this up back in July. He'd commented that there were usability regressions and you challenged him to specify them. Among his suggestions was that the F1 key was mis-mapped, compared with what Illustrator/Freehand users were used to. His You rebuffed and dismissed his suggestion. You commented something about Xara keymapping compatibility being more important to you than Illustrator. He indicated at the time that it was difficult to make these suggestions because he felt like he was being ignored.
Later, he tried again. He had noted that Xara also uses F1 for help so decided that since you said this was important to you, to focus his suggestion on it making Inkscape *more* Xara-compatible like, in order to win your support.
We have also told him that suggestions are better received if they're sent in form of a patch rather than just comments on the mailing list, because it gives something tangible to review. He didn't have a whole lot of experience making patches, but despite the difficulties for him, he took the challenge to try it. He kept the patch simple, just changing a single key.
Yet within an hour or so of submitting it, you unilaterally rejected it. You could have chosen to phrase it like, "Thanks for the patch, I'm okay with F1 mapping to Help, but we need to also map what had been there to another key, can you please account for that?" Instead, you criticized it, described it as "rejected" and "unacceptable", and closed it as rejected, as if saying you were 100% opposed to keyboard shortcut change proposals.
At this point, if it were me trying to get a patch in, I would throw up my hands in frustration. "Rejected" and "unacceptable" are very harsh terms to use, especially for someone's first patch, especially if the rationale is subjective as is typically the case for usability issues like keyboard mappings.
However, Alan was a trooper. Even though his patch was closed as rejected, he considered your criticisms and tried again. He recognized that one of your comments (develop a sophisticated keybinding configuration system) was going to be well beyond his abilities, but took your other criticism (that the change disabled the Node tool) to heart and created another, more sophisticated patch, that shuffled more keys around to match Xara (again, believing that your initial argument of Xara-compatibility would make you better pre-disposed to the changes).
But next, you added more work to his plate, saying the proposal would continue to be rejected unless he posted a complete proposal to the list, with detailed rationale, plus comparisons with two major apps, build a subcommunity of users, then also make some special code to give you the ability to keep using the old layout.
Herein again, you could use language like, "this is good, but would be better if..." but instead use language like, "it is not acceptable... this shows you are inexperienced..." etc. These phrasings can be perceived as rude and impolite, and judging from Alan's comments, were indeed perceived this way. Others who view this interaction may also perceive this as rude, and not wishing to be subject to rudeness may decide it safer to never propose keyboard changes themselves; thus effectively increasing the (social) difficulty of proposing changes.
But Alan stuck with it again, and wrote up a very nice (perhaps the most detailed and complete) proposal to the list, with rationale, etc. Several people expressed general agreement with the concept, thus showing that there was a subcommunity of users accepting the change; no one other than you expressed disagreement.
At this point you could say, "Thank you for doing all this work, even though your mappings make it closer to Xara, I still prefer my mappings but since you've done all I requested, and it sounds like so far I am the only one defending my layout, let's try yours for 0.44 and see if anyone in addition to me objects." Instead, you took a hostile stance saying that his patch stood a "100% chance of being rejected", implied his opinions were not valuable because you were using Inkscape for "real work" (as if Alan's role in working with improving interoperability with the GNOME community, Abiword, GIMP, etc. was not real work), and so forth.
You also say that while his proposal makes Inkscape more Xara-like, you don't want that, you want your own personal keymapping preferences to be the standard. Then you up the ante by saying he must produce a 100% accurate keyboard mapping to Xara, with full detailed documentation and so on, before any further consideration can be made. This is completely contradictory to your statements that you prefer incremental changes over wholesale ones like that, and directly contradicts your own statement that you yourself like to pick and choose which Xara mappings to have.
We know Alan's motivation here is that his interest is in _Illustrator_ mappings, not Xara, so your demand is going to be completely a non-starter for him I'm sure.
Honestly, I wonder if all of this is less about keyboard mappings and more just a big clash of personalities. You two have tended to be polarized on issues you both care about. As I see it, Alan is working hard to try and find a compromise with you, and you keep raising the bar to a point that it beyond his reach and saying things that can be perceived as closed and unfriendly. Personally, I don't care about the F-key mappings, but it pains me to see Alan trying so hard to find a way to work with you, and to see it being made so difficult for him.
I'm reminded by your own 'first hack' to Inkscape... http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=3422500&forum_id=... We were encouraging of your work (even though your first patch didn't work), and emphasized the importance in Inkscape to keep development open and friendly.
Anyway, I'm certainly going way overboard on this post but I think in these days with the Inkscape/Xara collaboration on the horizon, it is even *more* important that we hone our skills at being open, friendly, and accepting of ideas we may disagree with. If things work out well, we are going to need to build good working relationships with a number of new developers, and to tap into a whole new userbase. I think there are going to be a lot of potential for head butting in the future between people who have strong preferences one way or another, and if we can all develop good skills for finding compromises we will succeed. If we frustrate each other, things may fragment. Remember it was hard headedness and failure to be able to find good compromises that led to the Inkscape/Sodipodi split in the first place. If we are going to achieve a merge, we are going to have to get good at doing exactly the opposite.
Bryce
On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 18:13 -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:
I'm reminded by your own 'first hack' to Inkscape... http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=3422500&forum_id=... We were encouraging of your work (even though your first patch didn't work)
For the moment I am going to avoid commenting on any of the interpersonal issues; however, just for the record I remember bulia's patch working. IIRC it also worked for Nathan after a 'make clean'.
Anyway, from a technical/user standpoint:
1) We are going to have to defer any concrete action on key mappings until the 0.44 development cycle starts up.
2) Now that we're so established, making significant changes to the key mappings without configurability is a non-starter for the users.
3) Someone (probably me... I have a design in mind now) is simply going to have to write some code for customizable key mappings.
At that point, Alan's patch becomes an XML file and we stick it in share/keys.
-mental
On Oct 14, 2005, at 8:03 PM, MenTaLguY wrote:
- Someone (probably me... I have a design in mind now) is simply
going to have to write some code for customizable key mappings.
At that point, Alan's patch becomes an XML file and we stick it in share/keys.
I've got ideas on this also, but more wide-ranging.
We'll want to make sure everything gets addressed in ways that play nice with each other. One factor is changing keys. Another is moving more to Actions. Another is getting the menus dynamic. And yet another is getting the UI layout itself dynamic.
I'd imagine we could ship with a few configurations (Inkscape, Xara, others), and allow for customized ones. The way that Eclipse does much of it's preference might help.
Anyway, we should just get some long-term goals in mind and roughed out so that the smaller subtasks can be done without people getting in each others way and causing too much backing up in refactoring. I think probably the eventual cooperation between verbs moved to Actions, the menus rework and the keys rework just needs to start kicking around in peoples brains. I'm sure that once the dust settles we'll be able to get a staged approach that brings us the best functionality with a minimum of coding.
On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 11:03:25PM -0400, MenTaLguY wrote:
On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 18:13 -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:
I'm reminded by your own 'first hack' to Inkscape... http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=3422500&forum_id=... We were encouraging of your work (even though your first patch didn't work)
For the moment I am going to avoid commenting on any of the interpersonal issues; however, just for the record I remember bulia's patch working. IIRC it also worked for Nathan after a 'make clean'.
Ah, my mistake, then I owe Bulia an apology for saying otherwise.
Bryce
On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, MenTaLguY wrote:
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:03:25 -0400 From: MenTaLguY <mental@...3...> To: Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> Cc: bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...>, Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...>, Inkscape is a vector graphics editor inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: changes to keyboard shortcuts
On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 18:13 -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:
I'm reminded by your own 'first hack' to Inkscape... http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=3422500&forum_id=... We were encouraging of your work (even though your first patch didn't work)
For the moment I am going to avoid commenting on any of the interpersonal issues; however, just for the record I remember bulia's patch working. IIRC it also worked for Nathan after a 'make clean'.
Anyway, from a technical/user standpoint:
- We are going to have to defer any concrete action on key mappings
until the 0.44 development cycle starts up.
Fair enough. Part of the reason I made the push now is because I am unsure how much time I will be able to continue to spend watching inkscape develop as closely as I have been. (Also the longer things go without being changed the harder it can become to change them.)
- Now that we're so established, making significant changes to the key
mappings without configurability is a non-starter for the users.
I understand how current Inkscape users and users already familar with Sodipodi style bindings could be put out by any changes but on the other hand it isn't like anyone claimed Inkscape was stable, supported and not going to change. Similar arguements of comfort could have been used for keeping a great many things which have changed since Inkscape forked from Sodipodi. Some users (particularly those with dual head setups it seems) continue to yearn for certain elements of the Sodipodi interface and in future Inkscape may be able to accomodate them too but you didn't let that stop you from making fairly massive changes which ended up making Inkscape palettable to a much wider audience.
However the current keybindings do not seem like the best defaults for new users and beginners, or infrequent users. I hope you can agree on that because when fully switchable keybindings become available we will end up asking very similar questions about what the defaults should be.
I sincerely believe existing users and the heavy use pro users are the people most capable of adapting to any change be that learning a new set of keybindings or ideally switching back to keybinding profile in the "Sodipodi style" (I think that is a reasonable description of the arrangement Function keys inkscape which Inkscape inherited).
- Someone (probably me... I have a design in mind now) is simply going
to have to write some code for customizable key mappings.
Jon mentioned Actions which I believe brings with it the output to a standard lisp style menurc file.
At that point, Alan's patch becomes an XML file and we stick it in share/keys.
This issue doesn't go really go away as easily as you might hope and even when keyboard profiles are available there remain the questions of what most appopropriate keybindings are and for whom. The problem can also be reduced in cases where keybindings have been used as a way to micro optimised repetative behaviour and inkscape can be streamlined to tackle the larger tasks.
Sincerely
Alan Horkan
Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Dia http://gnome.org/projects/dia/ Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org
Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/
On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 23:03 -0400, MenTaLguY wrote:
Anyway, from a technical/user standpoint:
- We are going to have to defer any concrete action on key mappings
until the 0.44 development cycle starts up.
- Now that we're so established, making significant changes to the key
mappings without configurability is a non-starter for the users.
- Someone (probably me... I have a design in mind now) is simply going
to have to write some code for customizable key mappings.
Well, I don't want to rain on choice, but I think we need to limit it. I think there should be an "Inkscape set" of keys/menus/toolbars and we should discourage using other configurations. I'm not saying it should impossible, but discouraged. The problem with allowing that much configuration is that all the tutorials and documentation for Inkscape become useless. In the end, it is harder for new users to have that configuration.
--Ted
Bryce, once again, I don't feel that the way you describe my actions is correct or fair. I may be wrong on that, but I think it's better that we just close this discussion, as it's not leading us anywhere. For my (unchanged) position on the keys issue, see Mental's email which I support 100%.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
On Sat, Oct 15, 2005 at 12:45:20AM -0300, bulia byak wrote:
Bryce, once again, I don't feel that the way you describe my actions is correct or fair. I may be wrong on that, but I think it's better that we just close this discussion, as it's not leading us anywhere.
Sorry, I guess I got a bit overboard. You're right that I tend to be too sensitive to this sort of stuff, and I apologize if that caused offense.
Bryce
On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Bryce Harrington wrote:
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:13:38 -0700 From: Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> To: bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> Cc: Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...>, Inkscape is a vector graphics editor inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Proposed changes to Keyboard shortcuts
On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 08:34:22PM -0300, bulia byak wrote:
On 10/14/05, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> wrote:
It is a very common operation, but nearly all the zoom operations are already mapped to the number keys and to +/- anyway, so in practice I find the zoom tool itself is not that needed.
True for professional users. Newbies may still use Zoom tool quite often.
I would argue that similarly, Newbies would be using the Zoom tool via the icon, rather than the keyboard shortcut, but I think neither of us have any data to support our positions.
What are your proposals for mappings?
Like I said - just make a complete profile with Xara keys. Of course it's not 1:1 because some things have no correspondence, but we can try to be as close as possible. This will (1) solve the F1 problem and (2) be a first step towards the grand Xara/Inkscape merge that we all talk so much about recently. I think these advantages are well worth it. But just uprooting F1 and some adjacent keys is not enough justification for a change, IMHO.
Well, that's a good proposal, but I was thinking more along the lines of alternate proposals for those two particular keys.
One could also equally well argue the inverse - for Xara/Inkscape merge considerations, the primary key mappings should start migrating in that direction, and that if people wish to retain the current mappings, then that should be the one done as an overlay profile.
Secondly, if something matters even to a minority, we cannot bluntly disregard this minority. We are not a commercial entity who might afford to do that.
Of course, this same logic could be applied to Alan; he may be the minority, and rejecting his patch and suggestions is equivalent to disregarding his minority.
Please realize that by making the process of proposing keyboard changes be such a gauntlet to run
What are you talking about, Bryce? Did I make it too diffucult for Alan to propose his changes here? Nope, in fact he did so on my urging. Do I have to abstain from criticizing his proposal? Why?
Actually yes, IMHO, you are making it difficult to propose changes. Alan's original goal was simply to propose that F1 should be mapped to Help. A lot of applications use this key for help, so it's not that exotic of an idea; indeed, it makes Inkscape more conformant with GUI software in general.
He had initially brought this up back in July. He'd commented that there were usability regressions and you challenged him to specify them. Among his suggestions was that the F1 key was mis-mapped, compared with what Illustrator/Freehand users were used to. His You rebuffed and dismissed his suggestion. You commented something about Xara keymapping compatibility being more important to you than Illustrator. He indicated at the time that it was difficult to make these suggestions because he felt like he was being ignored.
Later, he tried again.
At this point, if it were me trying to get a patch in, I would throw up my hands in frustration.
I'll take this opportunity to apologise for ranting on IRC #inkscape the other day which was the verbal equivalent of throwing my hands up in frustration. In hindsight I could have tried to be less confrontational as it clearly raised the ante and made Bulia even less interested in considering my suggestion.
However, Alan was a trooper.
Compared to some other open source projects Inkscape is still a very considerate group of people and I knew from past experience that bulia comes across very forcefully in the written word but also that he will represent his views again more clearly and more straightforward if asked to do so.
Bryce has covered various issues which would have been difficult for me to bring up without risking making the situation seem more hostile.
If anything this discussion shows some of us care very much about what keybindings we have, but any users of vi or emacs could tell you that already.
We know Alan's motivation here is that his interest is in _Illustrator_ mappings, not Xara, so your demand is going to be completely a non-starter for him I'm sure.
Yes, Adobe Illustrator is my primary bias because it has a large market share and brand recognition. If I were going to put Inkscape on my CV I'd certainly put Illustrator with it so readers would know what I was talking about.
Having said that the F1 hangup goes back to windows 95 when I badly needed and regularly used searchable help (and continues today in Gnome but if I am forced to use the Help I usually end up trying to think of ways to improve the interface instead).
Honestly, I wonder if all of this is less about keyboard mappings and more just a big clash of personalities.
As stated above I could have been more diplomatic but I did feel like Bulia had staked his claim and the longer I left things the harder they would be to change, having previously had severe difficulty convincing another program to try and change things.
You two have tended to be polarized on issues you both care about.
it is surprisingly how often us butting heads ends well, and sometimes arguements or "discussions" are necessary but a less painful approach would certainly be preferable.
between people who have strong preferences one way or another, and if we can all develop good skills for finding compromises we will succeed. If we frustrate each other, things may fragment. Remember it was hard headedness and failure to be able to find good compromises that led to the Inkscape/Sodipodi split in the first place. If we are going to achieve a merge, we are going to have to get good at doing exactly the opposite.
Thanks
Alan
On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 08:34:22PM -0300, bulia byak wrote:
Certainly. In other words, if you feel so passionate about that, implement keyboard profiles. This way you can easily optimize it for ALL users. The patch we've seen so far just makes it Alan-optimized instead of Bulia-optimized, nothing more. Sorry this is not the correct way to go.
Let me also point out that if things go in logical progression, in the coming months we may well see an invasion of Xarans that will demand 100% keyboard mapping compatibility with Xara. Obviously this will result in something which makes neither Alan nor Bulia happy. I think you are absolutely correct that keyboard profiles are the right way to go, to satisfy everyone. It is a win-win-win.
Alan's initiative here makes a great opportunity for both of you to benefit. I think rather than taking the approach of rejecting his efforts (and potentially discourage him from continuing), you should instead take the opportunity to _encourage_ his continued efforts.
If I were you, instead of saying essentially, "It's my way or the highway," a much more effective and productive attitude would be, "Here, I can see you are passionate about seeing different keyboard shortcuts than me, I have an idea how we can both become happy; I see you are willing to learn, let me mentor you in how to make these changes, and help if you feel you are stuck, and we can both end up getting our needs met."
Both of you have good ideas and are quite passionate and determined, and I think if you can learn to collaborate on things you both care deeply about, it could really lead to some significant benefits for everyone.
Bryce
On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Bryce Harrington wrote:
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:11:14 -0700 From: Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> To: bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> Cc: Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...>, Inkscape is a vector graphics editor inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Proposed changes to Keyboard shortcuts
On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 07:51:37PM -0300, bulia byak wrote:
On 10/14/05, Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...> wrote:
F3 was used for the Zoom tool Shift F7 is now used for the Zoom tool (as well as other keybindings)
I object (even though Xara has it that way). Zoom is a very common operation.
It is a very common operation, but nearly all the zoom operations are already mapped to the number keys and to +/- anyway, so in practice I find the zoom tool itself is not that needed.
I mentioned already how I believed improvements to zoom could be made independantly of any other changes. There are a variety of common expectations and many people expect a variety of keys for zoom so supporting a few different things seems inevitable.
I will try to take a fresh look at it soon. Others can probably already mention various ways of working with Zoom they are familiar with from other programs and might like to be able to use in Inkscape (beyond just the keybindings, at least considering the menu items and possibly more).
Sincerely
Alan Horkan
Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Dia http://gnome.org/projects/dia/ Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org
Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/
participants (6)
-
Alan Horkan -
Bryce Harrington -
bulia byak -
Jon A. Cruz -
MenTaLguY -
Ted Gould