On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:18 PM, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:

Would you mind being specific?

1. "Inkscape erweist sich als extrem leistungsfähig und bietet erstaunliche Funktionen, die man in der kommerziellen Konkurrenz vergeblich suchen wird, nicht zuletzt, weil sie patentiert sind und nur in Open-Source-Projekten ohne Lizenzgebühren eingesetzt werden dürfen."

What Inkscape features are patented in proprietary software?

2. "unerwartete Probleme unter Windows und Mac OS X je nach Upgrade-Status nicht auszuschliessen waren."

Expect the unexpected?

3. "Ansonsten bleibt Inkscape-Interessenten unter Linux und OS X derzeit nur das Kompilieren von Hand, was angesichts der unzähligen Abhängigkeiten schnell zu einem Albtraum werden kann."

'sudo apt-get build-dep inkscape' takes care about most of them.

4. "Ebenso zu begrüssen wäre die Anpassung an die CSS3-Konventionen, wenn die Entwickler diese nicht so sorglos durchgeführt hätten. Inkscape 0.92 führt attraktive SVG-Elemente in der Hoffnung ein, dass sie dereinst in den SVG-Standard übernommen werden, tut dies aber ohne jede Garantie. Es werden ausserdem CSS3-Elemente eingeführt, von denen die Entwickler genau wissen, dass sie derzeit von keinem Browser unterstützt werden."

How much do you _actually_ know about the situation with SVG2? In particular, how much do you know about the rule where features need a few implementaton instances before they can make it to the standard?

Hint: http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/is-svg-2-really-on-life-support

5. "Inkscape 0.92 bietet erfreulicherweise eine längst überfällige Funktion, nämlich die Darstellung des Dokuments in einem Objektbaum.

The XML Editor in Inkscape has been providing that feature for years. The Objects dialog is just an easier UI for end-users.

6. "die Entwickler ignorieren noch immer die Anforderungen des Druckgewerbes"

Developers don't ignore that. It's in the roadmap. You of all the people should know what limitations Cairo imposes on software with regards to CMYK and spot colors.

7. "Es bleibt schleierhaft, was sich die Inkscape-Entwickler mit dieser Veröffentlichung gedacht haben, die kaum jemandem, der professionell mit Vektorgrafiken arbeitet, wirklich nutzt."

Yeah, if "professional use of vector graphics" == "CMYK exporting", then you are right. Except it's not.

8. "Angesichts dieser enttäuschenden Veröffentlichung steht zu hoffen, dass das Inkscape-Team sich in der nächsten Version anstatt auf neuen Feature-Zauber endlich auf die verlässliche Ausgabe für verschiedene Medien, inklusive PDF/X, besinnt."

The roadmap is open for everyone. You are welcome to study it.

http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Roadmap#Inkscape_0.93_.7E_Maintenanc...

In my experience, Inkscape developers are quite open to answering questions from the press and doing fact-checking. I encourage you to make use of that in your future endeavors.

Alex

Please keep discussions on this list civil and constructive.

If you have questions please refer to: https://inkscape.org/community/coc/

Thanks, Bryce

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 09:14:52AM +0100, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:

You got some things completely wrong, as usual. Perhaps you should try to read texts carefully before hurling insults at other people.

...

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:18 PM, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:

...

Would you mind being specific?

1. "Inkscape erweist sich als extrem leistungsfähig und bietet

erstaunliche Funktionen, die man in der kommerziellen Konkurrenz vergeblich suchen wird, nicht zuletzt, weil sie patentiert sind und nur in Open-Source-Projekten ohne Lizenzgebühren eingesetzt werden dürfen."

What Inkscape features are patented in proprietary software?

It is the other way around: Some Inkscape features are patented (does Spiro ring a bell?) but free for use in Open Source projects. They cannot be used in proprietary software without a licence. That's what the article says.

...

2. "unerwartete Probleme unter Windows und Mac OS X je nach

Upgrade-Status nicht auszuschliessen waren."

Expect the unexpected?

Read the Inkscape 0.92 release notes.

...

3. "Ansonsten bleibt Inkscape-Interessenten unter Linux und OS X

derzeit nur das Kompilieren von Hand, was angesichts der unzähligen Abhängigkeiten schnell zu einem Albtraum werden kann."

'sudo apt-get build-dep inkscape' takes care about most of them.

First of all, not every Linux user is using Ubuntu. Second, this wasn't a real criticism. I only explained that the switch to CMake and new dependencies may result in no version at all for stable distributions or a delay. Moreover, the article was written weeks ago, because "Publisher" is a printed magazine. The online version will be made available once the subscribers have been served their print edition. If you were a professional journalist, you'd know about the delay between a deadline and the final print-run.

...

4. "Ebenso zu begrüssen wäre die Anpassung an die CSS3-Konventionen,

wenn die Entwickler diese nicht so sorglos durchgeführt hätten. Inkscape 0.92 führt attraktive SVG-Elemente in der Hoffnung ein, dass sie dereinst in den SVG-Standard übernommen werden, tut dies aber ohne jede Garantie. Es werden ausserdem CSS3-Elemente eingeführt, von denen die Entwickler genau wissen, dass sie derzeit von keinem Browser unterstützt werden."

How much do you _actually_ know about the situation with SVG2? In particular, how much do you know about the rule where features need a few implementaton instances before they can make it to the standard?

Hint: http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/entry/is-svg-2-really-on-life-support

I know enough about the SVG standard and the relevant procedures. That doesn't devalue my major criticism: SVGs created with some of the new features cannot be reliably used outside Inkscape. Users can't expect to export them successfully to Illustrator or CorelDraw for a pre-press preparation, and neither can web designers expect to use 0.92 reliably for web graphics, unless they forego all new features.

...

5. "Inkscape 0.92 bietet erfreulicherweise eine längst überfällige

Funktion, nämlich die Darstellung des Dokuments in einem Objektbaum.

The XML Editor in Inkscape has been providing that feature for years. The Objects dialog is just an easier UI for end-users.

A non-sequitur. I know about the XML editor, but that's totally beside the point. Professional vector designers don't read and write code, you know? The new object tree would be absolutely great, but the tree window is so small that it diminishes its usability, and it cannot be resized. *That's* the issue here.

...

6. "die Entwickler ignorieren noch immer die Anforderungen des Druckgewerbes"

Developers don't ignore that. It's in the roadmap. You of all the people should know what limitations Cairo imposes on software with regards to CMYK and spot colors.

I, "of all people", know that the Cairo developers have rejected patches for CMYK and spot colour support, because they're not interested, which means that using Cairo for PDF export isn't going anywhere with respect to professional printing and PDF/X support. There are other solutions available, e.g. Ghostscript.

...

7. "Es bleibt schleierhaft, was sich die Inkscape-Entwickler mit

dieser Veröffentlichung gedacht haben, die kaum jemandem, der professionell mit Vektorgrafiken arbeitet, wirklich nutzt."

Yeah, if "professional use of vector graphics" == "CMYK exporting", then you are right. Except it's not.

See my comments above: Inkscape 0.92 SVGs can only be reliably displayed in this version and no other software. You need to export a bitmap to get all the visuals in other programmes.

...

8. "Angesichts dieser enttäuschenden Veröffentlichung steht zu hoffen,

dass das Inkscape-Team sich in der nächsten Version anstatt auf neuen Feature-Zauber endlich auf die verlässliche Ausgabe für verschiedene Medien, inklusive PDF/X, besinnt."

The roadmap is open for everyone. You are welcome to study it.

http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Roadmap#Inkscape_0.93_.7E_Maintenanc...

In my experience, Inkscape developers are quite open to answering questions from the press and doing fact-checking. I encourage you to make use of that in your future endeavors.

As to your questioning of my professional integrity as a journalist, I suggest you take a deep look in the mirror. I'm on record with this list, describing issues graphics professionals have with the programme and proposing solutions. Moreover, as a professional, I need to know what my readers need to know. The readership doesn't comprise developers or nerds, but people who need to get their work done, most of the time under enormous pressure and overwhelmingly self-employed. And here's where Inkscape 0.92 comes short. Your nitpicking doesn't change anything here.

If you were a real journalist and not just a blogger you'd probably also be aware of 1) deadlines, 2) limitations on text size and 3) knowledge of your target audience.

Alex, frankly, I'm really fed up with your arrogance, your rudeness, your superficial pedantry and your total lack of manners. People like you are one of the reasons that make it hard to "sell" Open Source software to open-minded professionals who want to escape Adobe's clutches and who also may decide to help projects like Inkscape. Why don't you just go away and leave civilised people alone?

Christoph

...

Alex

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A friendly hello to all!

Being a web developer, I thought I would chime in with a comment on a particular matter:

That doesn't devalue my major criticism: SVGs created with some of the new features cannot be reliably used outside Inkscape. Users can't expect to export them successfully to Illustrator or CorelDraw for a pre-press preparation, and neither can web designers expect to use 0.92 reliably for web graphics, unless they forego all new features.

I use Inkscape solely for all my vector editing and creation, but I rarely use it to export SVG for a website or to other programs. This is because SVG support is still really spotty at best in most browsers and yes, inkscape has some special sauce I think which Illustrator or others might not recognize or import properly - however, simple and easy designs (most of my vectors) are typically all that I want to export for websites in any case, so inkscape exports results more than admirably.

In fact, I would trust Inkscape with SVG creation/editing more than I would other proprietary tools. Just recently I had to modify an SVG that was created in some proprietary Mac tool and there were some issues with rendering the vectors properly. I was able to fix it with Inkscape because I was so familiar with it and it's easy to use (for me) - and the resulting SVG was cleaner and more concise after I had finished modifying it with Inkscape.

(On my wishlist of things I wouldn't mind for inkscape, though, I would probably prefer some sort of "export to webgl canvas" instead of better svg export or somesuch thing like that.)

Regarding the article, I don't speak German so I cannot reasonably give any comments or criticisms :\

I would like to say that more eyes on this software I think can only produce better results. Having people involved, even with criticism, seems like a good thing, to me - I would also applaud that you've linked this list to the article.

-Chris

Hi,

Le 15/02/2017 à 09:14, "Christoph Schäfer" a écrit :

Alex, frankly, I'm really fed up with your arrogance, your rudeness, your superficial pedantry and your total lack of manners. People like you are one of the reasons that make it hard to "sell" Open Source software to open-minded professionals who want to escape Adobe's clutches and who also may decide to help projects like Inkscape. Why don't you just go away and leave civilised people alone?

Translation in English: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3...

True that the article’s tone is a bit hard, but it’s probably great for the project to get such an analysis on issues professionals have with the program. Computer software issues have always been a pain for everyone, they must be listed sometimes.

Thank you for sharing your article and for your interest in Inkscape, and sorry for the agressive reaction of one of our members.

(I’ve rarely been a good reference for politeness too, therefore I’m practising.)

Regards, -- Sylvain

Hi Christoph,

I hope Inkscape will get a better review next time :)

Print is static, unfortunately, but maybe you can sneak in some info, at least to the people who matter?

Just picking some points that you maybe didn't know about, or that have developed after the article has been written:

For Linux, we've now got snap, ppa and flatpak (thanks to Ted, Bryce and Matthias Vogelsang).

A dmg package is being worked on and currently being tested, as you've seen on the list (Tim Sheridon, with the help of su_v).

Not sure about the tiny objects dialog you get - I can resize, to any size I want, even to fullscreen, if I so desire (but that's tested with 0.92.1pre2 on Linux, so may have been fixed? Or are you on a Mac, and the issue is OS X specific, maybe?)

The line-height issues were really a downer, I agree. The setting of a line-height works better now in 0.92.1, and it's also now remembered correctly.

To get the old behaviour, I can set the line-height before I start typing. I set it to 'unitless' (top empty field in dropdown) or em, then I unset the button with the question mark, again: before I start typing. No idea if that's what one is supposed to do, those buttons still need some user-friendly documentation, but it appears to work.

For the meshes, you could mention the polyfill which is available for the web: https://gitlab.com/Tavmjong/mesh.js/

For people who wish to have other raster export formats, there are extensions available which can be used to export to them. One option is currently jpg (https://github.com/giacmir/Inkscape-JPEG-export-extension), and I've worked on a webp export being added to it (but couldn't find a tester).

Kind Regards, Maren

Am 16.02.2017 um 08:21 schrieb "Christoph Schäfer":

...

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2017 um 23:08 Uhr Von: "Sylvain Chiron" <chironsylvain@...3370...> An: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Betreff: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape 0.92 review in German

Hi,

Le 15/02/2017 à 09:14, "Christoph Schäfer" a écrit :

...

Alex, frankly, I'm really fed up with your arrogance, your rudeness, your superficial pedantry and your total lack of manners. People like you are one of the reasons that make it hard to "sell" Open Source software to open-minded professionals who want to escape Adobe's clutches and who also may decide to help projects like Inkscape. Why don't you just go away and leave civilised people alone?

Translation in English: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3...

True that the article’s tone is a bit hard, but it’s probably great for the project to get such an analysis on issues professionals have with the program. Computer software issues have always been a pain for everyone, they must be listed sometimes.

Thank you for sharing your article and for your interest in Inkscape, and sorry for the agressive reaction of one of our members.

(I’ve rarely been a good reference for politeness too, therefore I’m practising.)

Regards,

Sylvain

Salut Sylvain,

First of all, you don't need to apologise for someone else.

Second, I don't think the article is too harsh. It's full of praise, but the conclusion is the same that has transpired in countless comments on this list, namely that 0.92 wasn't ready for release. My recommendation at the end is that 0.91 users should wait for 0.92.1 or 0.92.2 until the issues have been hopefully fixed and a DMG for OS X is available.

To give you some perspective, the readers of this magazine, which has an excellent reputation not only in Switzerland but in all German-speaking countries, are mostly working in the publishing industry, either print or cross-media, which means at least 90% of their readers are working on Macs. With no DMG for OS X available, they'll immediately lose interest, because installing a software via Macports or Homebrew can take hours.

I stumbled across this magazine years ago, when I found an article on Scribus that was outdated, and I contacted the editor about an update regarding Scribus (I'm a Scribus guy, btw). He agreed, and since then I've become their go-to author for articles regarding Libre Graphics (and more). I'm now a regular and trusted contributor and columnist. Moreover, I've been able to change the editor's stance from sceptical but interested to open and supportive of Open Source. All full-time editors of the magazine use either OpenOffice or LibreOffice these days, Firefox as their browser and Thunderbird for emails. The editor-in-chief is a fan of Ubuntu and uses it exclusively at home and at work. The magazine has also provided real-world test files for Scribus and the Document Liberation Project to improve the import libraries, which is their way of supporting Libre Graphics.

My reputation and the resulting trust was the result of critical reporting. It also resulted in me being invited to their annual autumn event as a speaker on Libre Graphics issues, which I've been doing for several years now. In addition to one or two talks I'm also available for questions about and demonstrations of Libre Graphics software during the whole event. Last year I also managed to get a PC with a huge screen and openSUSE as well as all the Libre Graphics goodies, including Inkscape, pre-installed and sponsored by a Swiss SUSE partner, so people could play with GIMP, Inkscape & Co.

Over the years not only business-like relationships, but also friendships developed, and I know firsthand what these professionals need. It's a huge mistake to think that everyone's enamoured with Adobe's quasi-monopoly, quite the contrary. Vector graphics professionals who tried to use Inkscape like it a lot, better than Illustrator, actually, but I've heard the same comments year in and year out: Lacking support of CMYK and spot colours as well as no PDF/X export are prohibitive.

Since I was writing for this particular audience, I hope you understand my conclusion.

Kind regards, Christoph

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Am 16.02.2017 um 15:50 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine:

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Maren Hachmann wrote:

...

For people who wish to have other raster export formats, there are extensions available which can be used to export to them. One option is currently jpg (https://github.com/giacmir/Inkscape-JPEG-export-extension), and I've worked on a webp export being added to it (but couldn't find a tester).

If you have your code in a public space, announcing a call for testers can be easily organized.

- Thank you, Alex :)

It's here: https://github.com/giacmir/Inkscape-JPEG-export-extension/pull/12

It would really only need one tester on Windows (who can also help debug the new imagemagick naming issue - which would need to be fixed first), one on Linux with a current, correctly compiled imagemagick version, and maybe someone on a Mac (but I don't know if it works there at all).

The other issue is that the imagemagick version that is needed isn't available for Ubuntu etc. without compiling with a flag for enabling webp, because the packager finds that the feature is too 'new' (maybe they're right, don't know). Installing webp doesn't help for me. I just searched for updates on this issue, and while it seemed it's enabled now according to some posts, I just 'broke' my own version when upgrading...

Regards, Maren

Alex

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Gesendet: Donnerstag, 16. Februar 2017 um 17:10 Uhr Von: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...3165...> An: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Betreff: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape 0.92 review in German

Am 16.02.2017 um 15:50 schrieb Alexandre Prokoudine:

...

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Maren Hachmann wrote:

...

For people who wish to have other raster export formats, there are extensions available which can be used to export to them. One option is currently jpg (https://github.com/giacmir/Inkscape-JPEG-export-extension), and I've worked on a webp export being added to it (but couldn't find a tester).

If you have your code in a public space, announcing a call for testers can be easily organized.

• Thank you, Alex :)

It's here: https://github.com/giacmir/Inkscape-JPEG-export-extension/pull/12

It would really only need one tester on Windows (who can also help debug the new imagemagick naming issue - which would need to be fixed first), one on Linux with a current, correctly compiled imagemagick version, and maybe someone on a Mac (but I don't know if it works there at all).

The other issue is that the imagemagick version that is needed isn't available for Ubuntu etc. without compiling with a flag for enabling webp, because the packager finds that the feature is too 'new' (maybe they're right, don't know). Installing webp doesn't help for me. I just searched for updates on this issue, and while it seemed it's enabled now according to some posts, I just 'broke' my own version when upgrading...

Regards, Maren

Why create such an unnecessary dependy? Isn't libjpeg good enough? Also, for print-related export, the TIFF format is much more common, and there's libtiff waiting to be used ...

Christoph

Not to take us too far off topic, but quick mention that I would love to see save/export options handled as they are in GIMP, where you just type the extension (.png/.jpeg/.tiff) of what format you want at the end of the filename, and the program pops up the relevant dialog (in file save/file export). This following the logic: if the user asks for it in the dialog, give it to them if possible.

These same options would be useful in the export dialog as well. I currently use mogrify to convert inkscape pngs to jpegs... i've been doing this for years and I hate it. There is nothing better about doing it this way, or via extension, from the user perspective. I hate it each and every time Inkscape forces me to do it, and I dislike *even more* having to install extensions to do it. :) It's embarassing having to explain to new users that they can not export to this common, efficient and universally supported file format. It adds to the "half-baked" feeling mentioned earlier... by one of our proponents/fans. :)

I get the ideology behind not offering jpeg as a *default* export (I don't think that should change: if the user does not specify, by all means, give them a nice clean png), but now that we support things like mesh gradients, even pure vectors exported as pngs are becoming huge, and very un-eco-friendly vs jpeg, both in terms of storage space and bandwidth as a delivery format. It's often the case that quality takes a back seat to file size on the web, and since Inkscape is vector, there is no danger of losing quality in the original: the user can always re-export a png later if it starts to matter.

I don't own/drive a car. I walk or take public transport - it's not usually the best *quality* trip, but it is way more eco-friendly. I feel the same about png vs jpeg. Pristine quality for a web designer can/should take a back-seat to eco-friendly (not to mention load-time-friendly) concerns. We all do our part, and I think Inkscape should too, but right now it puts obstacles in the way of doing this.

Please, can we revisit this? Pretty please? :)

Thanks, as always for all the tremendous effort!

Yours always, -C

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 6:12 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" <christoph-schaefer@...173...> wrote:

Hi Maren,

...

Not sure about the tiny objects dialog you get - I can resize, to any size I want, even to fullscreen, if I so desire (but that's tested with 0.92.1pre2 on Linux, so may have been fixed? Or are you on a Mac, and the issue is OS X specific, maybe?)

For the article I tested the Windows version, and the complaint didn't refer the dialogue as such but the tiny object tree window that can't be enlarged to display more elements.

Christoph

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OK.

I'm changing my mind slightly on jpegs. Not that their a horrible format that should die in a fire, but that we could hook which ever exports are currently compiled into gdk/gtk by taking the extension and feeding that information to gdk after the png is ready. (we shouldn't have to actually hook up libjpeg and libtiff etc because we'd then be stuck with the bill)

Two caveats though. That it not be inviting in the interface to make a jpeg. Just via the extensions written by the user only.

The other is some sort of crying emoji to appear in the export box next to text that reads "Danger: There are bits of lemon peel floating down the Thames that would make a better image format than JPEG" or maybe just "Warning: JPEG isn't a very good format" would do.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Fri, 2017-02-17 at 08:58 +0000, C R wrote:

Not to take us too far off topic, but quick mention that I would love to see save/export options handled as they are in GIMP, where you just type the extension (.png/.jpeg/.tiff) of what format you want at the end of the filename, and the program pops up the relevant dialog (in file save/file export). This following the logic: if the user asks for it in the dialog, give it to them if possible.

These same options would be useful in the export dialog as well. I currently use mogrify to convert inkscape pngs to jpegs... i've been doing this for years and I hate it. There is nothing better about doing it this way, or via extension, from the user perspective. I hate it each and every time Inkscape forces me to do it, and I dislike *even more* having to install extensions to do it. :) It's embarassing having to explain to new users that they can not export to this common, efficient and universally supported file format. It adds to the "half-baked" feeling mentioned earlier... by one of our proponents/fans. :)

I get the ideology behind not offering jpeg as a *default* export (I don't think that should change: if the user does not specify, by all means, give them a nice clean png), but now that we support things like mesh gradients, even pure vectors exported as pngs are becoming huge, and very un-eco-friendly vs jpeg, both in terms of storage space and bandwidth as a delivery format. It's often the case that quality takes a back seat to file size on the web, and since Inkscape is vector, there is no danger of losing quality in the original: the user can always re-export a png later if it starts to matter.

I don't own/drive a car. I walk or take public transport - it's not usually the best *quality* trip, but it is way more eco-friendly. I feel the same about png vs jpeg. Pristine quality for a web designer can/should take a back-seat to eco-friendly (not to mention load-time-friendly) concerns. We all do our part, and I think Inkscape should too, but right now it puts obstacles in the way of doing this.

Please, can we revisit this? Pretty please? :)

Thanks, as always for all the tremendous effort!

Yours always, -C

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 6:12 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" <christoph-schaefer@...173...> wrote:

...

Hi Maren,

...

Not sure about the tiny objects dialog you get - I can resize, to any size I want, even to fullscreen, if I so desire (but that's tested with 0.92.1pre2 on Linux, so may have been fixed? Or are you on a Mac, and the issue is OS X specific, maybe?)

For the article I tested the Windows version, and the complaint didn't refer the dialogue as such but the tiny object tree window that can't be enlarged to display more elements.

Christoph

---

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---

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Two caveats though. That it not be inviting in the interface to make a jpeg. Just via the extensions written by the user only.

If the user types .jpg as the extension, can we hand them a pop-up jpeg save dialog? This would not change the export dialog at all. :)

The other is some sort of crying emoji to appear in the export box next to text that reads "Danger: There are bits of lemon peel floating down the Thames that would make a better image format than JPEG" or maybe just "Warning: JPEG isn't a very good format" would do.

May be better to explain why JPEG sucks (compared to png).

Maybe: "Warning: JPEG Uses lossy compression, and eats kittens for breakfast. For best results use png." I think the sad emoji should have a bowler hat. :)

-C

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Fri, 2017-02-17 at 08:58 +0000, C R wrote:

...

Not to take us too far off topic, but quick mention that I would love to see save/export options handled as they are in GIMP, where you just type the extension (.png/.jpeg/.tiff) of what format you want at the end of the filename, and the program pops up the relevant dialog (in file save/file export). This following the logic: if the user asks for it in the dialog, give it to them if possible.

These same options would be useful in the export dialog as well. I currently use mogrify to convert inkscape pngs to jpegs... i've been doing this for years and I hate it. There is nothing better about doing it this way, or via extension, from the user perspective. I hate it each and every time Inkscape forces me to do it, and I dislike *even more* having to install extensions to do it. :) It's embarassing having to explain to new users that they can not export to this common, efficient and universally supported file format. It adds to the "half-baked" feeling mentioned earlier... by one of our proponents/fans. :)

I get the ideology behind not offering jpeg as a *default* export (I don't think that should change: if the user does not specify, by all means, give them a nice clean png), but now that we support things like mesh gradients, even pure vectors exported as pngs are becoming huge, and very un-eco-friendly vs jpeg, both in terms of storage space and bandwidth as a delivery format. It's often the case that quality takes a back seat to file size on the web, and since Inkscape is vector, there is no danger of losing quality in the original: the user can always re-export a png later if it starts to matter.

I don't own/drive a car. I walk or take public transport - it's not usually the best *quality* trip, but it is way more eco-friendly. I feel the same about png vs jpeg. Pristine quality for a web designer can/should take a back-seat to eco-friendly (not to mention load-time-friendly) concerns. We all do our part, and I think Inkscape should too, but right now it puts obstacles in the way of doing this.

Please, can we revisit this? Pretty please? :)

Thanks, as always for all the tremendous effort!

Yours always, -C

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 6:12 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" <christoph-schaefer@...173...> wrote:

...

Hi Maren,

...

Not sure about the tiny objects dialog you get - I can resize, to any size I want, even to fullscreen, if I so desire (but that's tested with 0.92.1pre2 on Linux, so may have been fixed? Or are you on a Mac, and the issue is OS X specific, maybe?)

For the article I tested the Windows version, and the complaint didn't refer the dialogue as such but the tiny object tree window that can't be enlarged to display more elements.

Christoph

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Martin Owens-2 wrote

The other is some sort of crying emoji to appear in the export box next to text that reads "Danger: There are bits of lemon peel floating down the Thames that would make a better image format than JPEG" or maybe just "Warning: JPEG isn't a very good format" would do.

Why should a program take on itself the responsibility of judging image formats? They exist so there must be a reason. Maybe they're historical, maybe they are just so much widespread that there's no point in pretending that people don't like/use them, maybe they really have some features that make them useful. Maybe someone just need them.

I think that the exact same reasoning could be done with MP3s. But people have their smartphones full of MP3s and JPGs and compressed videos and so on. We won't go much further without compressed formats. And web pages would probably not even have started to exist.

I avoid JPGs as much as I can (that is always, usually ;) ) because I don't like taking compromises when I can afford the lossless solution. So don't waste time in explaining me the advantages of PNG over JPG: I already know them and I really love the PNG format.

But even so, I don't like a program to tell me in which format I have to save my documents! Indeed, I don't like programs that tell me what to do in general. Programs are instruments that I expect to help me: if they suit my needs they're good, otherwise they're pieces of junk. And it can be the opposite for someone else at the exact same time. There's no absolute point of view on this, and no point in discussing too.

Either you can produce JPGs or you can't. And if you decide you can, no "Are you sure? Really? No, because you see... you may not know what you're doing... Humph, do I have to? Ok: here's your rotting JPG", please (but if you just cannot help it, be polite and add a "Do not show again." checkbox to the dialog).

Luca

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On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 6:26 PM, C R wrote:

I think we could provide most common formats and still educate people about which to use. Inkscape could, for example smartly suggest the format that produces the best results/size for the current output. We could do something like suggest .png when the resulting png file would use less space, and be higher quality export. This is more eco-friendly too, and adds real value to the decision.

A job for https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkInfoBar.html maybe?

Alex

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 7:17 PM, Martin Owens wrote:

On Fri, 2017-02-17 at 18:51 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

...

A job for https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkInfoBar.html maybe?

I have an outstanding wishlist item for the InfoBar. :-( A generic implementation would be a useful first step.

Yeah, I imagine, e.g. getting rid of warning dialogs in favor of the InfoBar would improve things quite a bit.

On Fri, 2017-02-17 at 16:42 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

...

• is not color management aware
• only support 8-bit data per color channel max
• only handles RGB(A) and greyscale images

That sounds like what we want.

Do you mean you intentionally want a less capable solution? If so, why?

Alex

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Martin Owens wrote:

I get the feeling your thinking of tiff and not jpeg.

I'm thinking of both TIFF, JPEG, and PNG. Maybe even WebP, although presently I have no gut feeling how far this one is going to go.

My point is that I'd like bitmaps color-managed in Inkscape. Well, in fact, no. I'd like all of Inkscape to be revisited with regards to how it manages color.

When it's time to open development of 0.94 as per the roadmap and start working on exporting for professional printing, you are going to run into massive changes, e.g.:

- introducing Scribus-like document settings, e.g. a single color profile for all fills/strokes (instead of the CMS tab which you plan to kill off, fortunately); - doing color transforms for vector objects in the clipboard and imported vector data; - doing color transforms for vector and bitmap objects at the export time, if the target color space is something else; - handling spot colors; - making all color/bitmap widgets color-managed (they probably aren't yet).

...and the list goes on.

Introducing proper color transforms for bitmaps is just one part of that plan, should you choose to do it. And GdkPixbuf is most probably not your friend there.

Alex

Martin Owens-2 wrote

I get the feeling that as Bryce said, when you add a thing, people then come looking for the thing+1 and the thing+5 and before you know it you have hundreds of thousands of open bug reports.

That's why you should either do it well or don't do it at all.

Doing it half would just increase the "half-baked" sense moving it over more than a half; I mean, more baked than not baked... Well, you got it.

Martin Owens-2 wrote

First draft doesn't need a file dialog or a quality slider or anything like that, just output the file.

IMO, not managing the quality would be too restrictive. A JPG can be everything or anything by its quality. If you choose a too low you're giving a useless feature = development time wasted. If you choose a too high the file is going to be big = why JPG? (were you thinking at this? :) ) So people will rightly complain for the lack of the quality bar. I suppose that managing it since the beginning is not so hard, apart from the fact that you really need a dedicated export dialog, of course: but what's the point of developing a feature to then hide it under the carpet?

Luca

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... are we really dropping this because a slider bar is too much work? :P

Fine, for the first run, add JPEG export quality to the preferences dialogue for bitmap output. Will that make it not die? It's a really big workflow bottleneck having no support for it.

-C

On 17 Feb 2017 5:12 p.m., "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> wrote:

On Fri, 2017-02-17 at 09:56 -0700, LucaDC wrote:

...

Doing it half would just increase the "half-baked" sense moving it over more than a half; I mean, more baked than not baked... Well, you got it.

Half baked is probably an aspiration really. Your right, let's not do it.

Maybe there's some external tool that could be developed to output all these formats in some sort of visual pipeline. It's crazy that Gimp, Inkscape and everyone has to develop the same damn jpeg export with a quality slider. Each implementation tries, but it's not GREAT.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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Am Freitag, 17. Februar 2017, 10:27:32 CET schrieb LucaDC:

Martin Owens-2 wrote

...

Each implementation tries, but it's not GREAT.

A dialog with the slide bar and a small preview. You move the slide and if it's low the preview is ugly, if it goes over a certain amount (using some size guess if exact calculation is too challenging), a "Use PNG instead!" pops out. You both give the functionality and educate on why PNG export from vectorial drawings is better.

Guessing the size of the PNG in advance is most likely next to impossible. And given how long a PNG export takes it's not really feasible to do one every time the export dialog is shown just to gather the file size.

Tobias

Eduard Braun wrote

PNG is the correct choice for at least 99% of graphics generated with Inkscape.

Is it you saying this or do you have some evidence?

You have a problem. The solution is tough. You ask yourself: do I really have to deal with it? You answer yourself: well, no. Problem solved.

Someone is asking for JPG export. Just say you don't want to do it, don't try to convince people that they don't need it.

Luca

-- View this message in context: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-0-92-review-in-German-tp4978859p49... Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

PNG is the correct choice for at least 99% of graphics generated with Inkscape.

Ah, No. Not if you care about file size. I work with Inkscape professionally daily for web, print, and design. I use png about 30% of the time. For web, it's more like 10% of the time because of gradients and raster images mixed in with the vector shapes (for auction and listing graphics, and engraving templates, and file size is a big concern in web graphics for e-commerce sites (as in, google will downgrade you in search results if your pages take too long to load). Inkscape is a far more capable program than just being able to manipulate basic vector shapes. For design work I use jpegs embedded in pdf files because high resolution is more important than compression quality, and email attachment file size is still limited by most mail servers, this is especially the case with things going to/from China. The detail is more important than the quality of the edges at 100% zoom.

For the rare use cases were JPG might actually be advantageous (which - even for gradients - is seldom the case thanks to delta filters

Not true. You can save a 90 quality jpeg from a simple gradient png exported from gimp at a 25% savings in file size with almost no perceivable difference. The less you care about quality, the more you can save, which is why jpeg is useful. It lets you decide on a case-by-case basis. Also, Inkscape's exported gradients are not great to begin with, having banding issues which really need to be solved before it can claim to export high quality raster gradients.

used in PNG compression) it shouldn't be hard to find software designed for working with raster graphics (and offering the respective export formats).

It's not hard to find one, it's a pain to use two programs to fill in a standard and necessary feature for designers. Graphics produced in Inkscape should be able to be exported to the required format.

Regarding how this discussion started: Sometimes it's better to educate users than to give in to wishes that are the result of a lack of knowledge...

I love it when people don't read the arguments presented for using jpegs, and then assume it's lack of knowledge.

For example I'm constantly teaching my students *not* to use JPG compression for scientific plots. I'd love the day where JPG export was cut from all plotting software!

And if Inkscape's mission statement included a scope limited to scientific plots, I'd agree with you completely. :P

-C

Regards, Eduard

Am 17.02.2017 um 18:39 schrieb Tobias Ellinghaus:

Am Freitag, 17. Februar 2017, 10:27:32 CET schrieb LucaDC:

Martin Owens-2 wrote

Each implementation tries, but it's not GREAT.

A dialog with the slide bar and a small preview. You move the slide and if it's low the preview is ugly, if it goes over a certain amount (using some size guess if exact calculation is too challenging), a "Use PNG instead!" pops out. You both give the functionality and educate on why PNG export from vectorial drawings is better.

Guessing the size of the PNG in advance is most likely next to impossible. And given how long a PNG export takes it's not really feasible to do one every time the export dialog is shown just to gather the file size.

Tobias

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That's consistent with the reaction I get when I tell people (new users as well as other pro graphics folks) Inkscape doesn't export jpegs. "But you can convert it with GIMP" doesn't seem to impress anyone.

-C

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:11 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

I haven't read through this entire thread. But I can report that we get requests in the forum all the time, asking for JPG export. Most people think it's rather outrageous that Inkscape doesn't natively offer JPG, either by export or save as

Thank goodness that extension was fixed!

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 4:00 PM To: Eduard Braun Cc: inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Jpeg, Was: Review in German

...

PNG is the correct choice for at least 99% of graphics generated with Inkscape.

Ah, No. Not if you care about file size. I work with Inkscape professionally daily for web, print, and design. I use png about 30% of the time. For web, it's more like 10% of the time because of gradients and raster images mixed in with the vector shapes (for auction and listing graphics, and engraving templates, and file size is a big concern in web graphics for e-commerce sites (as in, google will downgrade you in search results if your pages take too long to load). Inkscape is a far more capable program than just being able to manipulate basic vector shapes. For design work I use jpegs embedded in pdf files because high resolution is more important than compression quality, and email attachment file size is still limited by most mail servers, this is especially the case with things going to/from China. The detail is more important than the quality of the edges at 100% zoom.

...

For the rare use cases were JPG might actually be advantageous (which - even for gradients - is seldom the case thanks to delta filters

Not true. You can save a 90 quality jpeg from a simple gradient png exported from gimp at a 25% savings in file size with almost no perceivable difference. The less you care about quality, the more you can save, which is why jpeg is useful. It lets you decide on a case-by-case basis. Also, Inkscape's exported gradients are not great to begin with, having banding issues which really need to be solved before it can claim to export high quality raster gradients.

...

used in PNG compression) it shouldn't be hard to find software designed for working with raster graphics (and offering the respective export formats).

It's not hard to find one, it's a pain to use two programs to fill in a standard and necessary feature for designers. Graphics produced in Inkscape should be able to be exported to the required format.

...

Regarding how this discussion started: Sometimes it's better to educate users than to give in to wishes that are the result of a lack of knowledge...

I love it when people don't read the arguments presented for using jpegs, and then assume it's lack of knowledge.

...

For example I'm constantly teaching my students *not* to use JPG compression for scientific plots. I'd love the day where JPG export was cut from all plotting software!

And if Inkscape's mission statement included a scope limited to scientific plots, I'd agree with you completely. :P

-C

...

Regards, Eduard

Am 17.02.2017 um 18:39 schrieb Tobias Ellinghaus:

Am Freitag, 17. Februar 2017, 10:27:32 CET schrieb LucaDC:

Martin Owens-2 wrote

Each implementation tries, but it's not GREAT.

A dialog with the slide bar and a small preview. You move the slide and if it's low the preview is ugly, if it goes over a certain amount (using some size guess if exact calculation is too challenging), a "Use PNG instead!" pops out. You both give the functionality and educate on why PNG export from vectorial drawings is better.

Guessing the size of the PNG in advance is most likely next to impossible. And given how long a PNG export takes it's not really feasible to do one every time the export dialog is shown just to gather the file size.

Tobias

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Yes, this is exactly what I'm taking about! This is the way to show that png is the best format for export (if it is).

No see how much more compelling a case this is for png than just leaving jpeg unsupported and passing the buck to other programs for conversion. This is true benefit, serving the user useful information they can use to make their own decisions.

Correct if wrong, but isn't most of the time taken in Inkscape to *save* the png rather than create it? If you're not writing it to disk, it should be quite fast, no?

Thanks Mark, for pointing this out this feature. :) -C

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Mark Schafer <mschafer@...2596...> wrote:

One of my most used paint programs (Ulead Photoimpact - now Corel) has an excellent exporter that calculates the file size as you change settings for jpg, png, gif. Its super useful when I am exporting to attach to an email or when I need to know the data transfer overhead for a webpage (say).

It looks like this (in part):

http://i65.tinypic.com/2zqszkj.jpg

This suggests that its not impossible to calculate the size before saving. Of course this tool is way over the top for what is being suggested. A simple slider for jpg quality would suffice.

On 2/18/2017 6:39 AM, Tobias Ellinghaus wrote:

...

Am Freitag, 17. Februar 2017, 10:27:32 CET schrieb LucaDC: Guessing the size of the PNG in advance is most likely next to impossible. And given how long a PNG export takes it's not really feasible to do one every time the export dialog is shown just to gather the file size.

Tobias

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That seems to be a raster editor. For those creating the PNG/JPEG/... on the fly is cheap. However, Inkscape has to do a lot of calculations to do in the background to create such a raster file which makes it really slow. At least that's my impression, I didn't actually measure the timings. Maybe I should do that so we know what we are talking about ...

That would be great! Thanks for doing this, Tobias! :)

-C

...

On 2/18/2017 6:39 AM, Tobias Ellinghaus wrote:

...

Am Freitag, 17. Februar 2017, 10:27:32 CET schrieb LucaDC: Guessing the size of the PNG in advance is most likely next to impossible. And given how long a PNG export takes it's not really feasible to do one every time the export dialog is shown just to gather the file size.

Tobias

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On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Tobias Ellinghaus wrote:

PS: I used the "Export PNG Image" exporter, not the one from the save dialog which seems rather useless to me.

"Cairo PNG" export renders crisper text, but loses SVG Filters.

"Export PNG Image" preserves everything, but small text looks muddy.

Alex

Regarding jpeg output specifically, this has been considered multiple times in the past, but the consensus folks generally came to was that it should be outside the scope for Inkscape.

Why should it be? What other professional drawing program artificially restricts export to standard jpeg format as "out of project scope"?

It's not a good format for the type of graphics Inkscape produces, and while there are sites and services that take only JPG files, it seems kind of a lazy convenience -

Yes, why make exporting to JPG easy for our users? Why should making graphics export in the preferred format with Inkscape easy... you'd think we were making some sort of professional drawing program here, or something.

there's plenty of good tools out there for converting PNGs to JPGs; if it's inconvenient to have to do that, and makes people wonder if they're doing something wrong, well that's not necessarily a bad thing... ;-)

This much is true. Every time I have to open gimp, or a command terminal to convert an inkscape .png to .jpg I do wonder if Inkscape is the right drawing program for the task. I wonder if I shouldn't be making my templates in Kirta. I wonder that *every single time*. I'll bet others do too. Is that really what we want? To drive people to other software?

-C

That said, I don't think fundamentally or technically it would be impossible to include jpeg support*. From what I've read, developers would be open to it, but would want to see more compelling reasons than have been seen. Perhaps this would be a good topic to solicit further user input on.

Bryce

• -- if anyone does get a motivation to work on this, I'd strongly

encourage doing it in a branch so we can ensure the functionality is fully baked before it appears in trunk.

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My apologies, but I'm really, truly tired of the good points in my case being ignored.

I'm ill of being told I'm doing it wrong, that I'm being lazy ("lazy convenience"), and I do think that it hurts Inkscape as a graphics tool to reject this format because many people in the project don't use Inkscape for producing e-commerce web graphics, which consists of most of the content on the internet.

There is less snark in there than you are reading. I do actually think of using other tools for jobs Inkscape is currently the best tool for because of issues like these. They are problems entirely of our own making. It wouldn't bother me so much if I didn't care about Inkscape, and the future of the project.

We need to get over the urge to impose our standards of quality on users that deal with quantity and size restrictions of other systems that png purists don't have to deal with. If we call them lazy, uninformed, wrong... expect snark, and expect them to go elsewhere for their graphics needs.

1. Export png > open another program > convert to jpeg > close other program, erase png 2. Export jpg

Imposing workflow 1, when you can give workflow 2 is user-abuse for any professional graphics program.

Show the advantages of using png, suggest png, but when the user needs jpeg, Inkscape should serve the needs of the user, not the other way around. Please stop saying it's useless, or wrong or lazy. It's none of those things, and there is no alternative to jpeg for size and compression for web at the moment.

-C

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 2:04 AM, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> wrote:

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:16:45PM +0000, C R wrote:

...

...

Regarding jpeg output specifically, this has been considered multiple times in the past, but the consensus folks generally came to was that it should be outside the scope for Inkscape.

Why should it be? What other professional drawing program artificially restricts export to standard jpeg format as "out of project scope"?

...

It's not a good format for the type of graphics Inkscape produces, and while there are sites and services that take only JPG files, it seems kind of a lazy convenience -

Yes, why make exporting to JPG easy for our users? Why should making graphics export in the preferred format with Inkscape easy... you'd think we were making some sort of professional drawing program here, or something.

...

there's plenty of good tools out there for converting PNGs to JPGs; if it's inconvenient to have to do that, and makes people wonder if they're doing something wrong, well that's not necessarily a bad thing... ;-)

This much is true. Every time I have to open gimp, or a command terminal to convert an inkscape .png to .jpg I do wonder if Inkscape is the right drawing program for the task. I wonder if I shouldn't be making my templates in Kirta. I wonder that *every single time*. I'll bet others do too. Is that really what we want? To drive people to other software?

-C

Not to interrupt your snarky rant there but you ought to have read the remainder of my email where I provided a path forward on this. You started off well in the other email and are making good points, stick with it - don't just drown your good case in sarcasm.

...

...

That said, I don't think fundamentally or technically it would be impossible to include jpeg support*. From what I've read, developers would be open to it, but would want to see more compelling reasons than have been seen. Perhaps this would be a good topic to solicit further user input on.

Bryce

• -- if anyone does get a motivation to work on this, I'd strongly

encourage doing it in a branch so we can ensure the functionality is fully baked before it appears in trunk.

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On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Jabier Arraiza wrote:

Im thinking in a way to integrate something like https://pngquant.org/ with a one slider "Quality"

Built-in pngquant or pngcrush would be a great feature.

Alex

Hi Alex,

On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 16:06:08 +0300 Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Jabier Arraiza wrote:

...

Im thinking in a way to integrate something like https://pngquant.org/ with a one slider "Quality"

Built-in pngquant or pngcrush would be a great feature.

I think http://optipng.sourceforge.net/ is better than pngcrush.

Regards,

Shlomi

More PNG optimisation features would be great. I'd love it if I could use them in place of jpegs at the same file sizes I need, if they are also of equivalent visual quality.

-C

On 18 Feb 2017 2:24 p.m., "Alexandre Prokoudine" < alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

...

...

Built-in pngquant or pngcrush would be a great feature.

I think http://optipng.sourceforge.net/ is better than pngcrush.

OptiPNG what I use too. I just don't have a particular opinion on the available options :)

Alex

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Hi Jabier,

Thanks for cutting through the drama :-) I was thinking of a similar solution to yours while reading the backlog.

A set of raster exporting extensions would be very useful, especially if they're in python.

There's a lot of C++ code in our project that pops up extensions windows and a bunch of other things. I think the GUI should be handled by the script (but that would mean a version of pygtk or similar).

I'm attaching what I would love to be able to do to the inkscape Export PNG dialog. Maybe Mo (Máirín) and CR have some things to add too. (generated from a glade file which I'm also attaching)

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Sat, 2017-02-18 at 17:14 +0100, Jabier Arraiza wrote:

Hi I have a idea about this things. Currently we have a hook on finish export to PNG to close inkscape, the proposal is: Substitute this toogle with a combo box filled with inkscape share folder export scripts: do_do nothing.py -> "Do Nothing" close_inkscape.py -> "Close Inkscape" close_computer.py -> "Close Computer" pngquant_10_20.py -> "pnggquant_10_20" -> pngquant pngquant_30_60.py -> "pngquant_30_60" JPG.py -> "JPG" TIFF.py -> "TIFF" mycustom_upload_share_script.py -> "My Custom Upload Share Script"

Maybe with a prompt to ask parameters on start

Any thoughts? Cheers, Jabier.

On Sat, 2017-02-18 at 14:44 +0000, C R wrote:

...

More PNG optimisation features would be great. I'd love it if I could use them in place of jpegs at the same file sizes I need, if they are also of equivalent visual quality.

-C

On 18 Feb 2017 2:24 p.m., "Alexandre Prokoudine" <alexandre.prokoudin e@...400...> wrote:

...

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

...

...

Built-in pngquant or pngcrush would be a great feature.

I think http://optipng.sourceforge.net/ is better than pngcrush.

OptiPNG what I use too. I just don't have a particular opinion on the available options :)

Alex

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What I like most about this is the preview of the exported region, and the removal of the width/height/coordinates part at the top of the old dialog (which I guess will be accessible in the 'Custom' tab). This could save users so much confusion!

Maren

Am 18.02.2017 um 21:30 schrieb C R:

Looks awesome, Martin! Only one thing I would change is that the width and height fields don't seem to be editable anymore, and I definitely use that feature. Often you don't really want to fiddle with the dpi, and you know your width and height, so it's great to just be able to type in what you need and let Inkscape calculate the dpi for you.

Everything else looks stellar. Much cleaner, and also that "batch export selected objects" checkbox gives me mini joygasms. :)

Thanks! -C

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:

...

Hi Jabier,

Thanks for cutting through the drama :-) I was thinking of a similar solution to yours while reading the backlog.

A set of raster exporting extensions would be very useful, especially if they're in python.

There's a lot of C++ code in our project that pops up extensions windows and a bunch of other things. I think the GUI should be handled by the script (but that would mean a version of pygtk or similar).

I'm attaching what I would love to be able to do to the inkscape Export PNG dialog. Maybe Mo (Máirín) and CR have some things to add too. (generated from a glade file which I'm also attaching)

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Sat, 2017-02-18 at 17:14 +0100, Jabier Arraiza wrote:

...

Hi I have a idea about this things. Currently we have a hook on finish export to PNG to close inkscape, the proposal is: Substitute this toogle with a combo box filled with inkscape share folder export scripts: do_do nothing.py -> "Do Nothing" close_inkscape.py -> "Close Inkscape" close_computer.py -> "Close Computer" pngquant_10_20.py -> "pnggquant_10_20" -> pngquant pngquant_30_60.py -> "pngquant_30_60" JPG.py -> "JPG" TIFF.py -> "TIFF" mycustom_upload_share_script.py -> "My Custom Upload Share Script"

Maybe with a prompt to ask parameters on start

Any thoughts? Cheers, Jabier.

On Sat, 2017-02-18 at 14:44 +0000, C R wrote:

...

More PNG optimisation features would be great. I'd love it if I could use them in place of jpegs at the same file sizes I need, if they are also of equivalent visual quality.

-C

On 18 Feb 2017 2:24 p.m., "Alexandre Prokoudine" <alexandre.prokoudin e@...400...> wrote:

...

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

...

> > Built-in pngquant or pngcrush would be a great feature. > I think http://optipng.sourceforge.net/ is better than pngcrush.

OptiPNG what I use too. I just don't have a particular opinion on the available options :)

Alex

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There's been a rather unfortunate bug during gtk2/3 migration where the options in the export panel crush and don't expand properly. It's likely that option was in the... er.. crumple zone. ;)

Anyway, glad to see it's there, regardless of when it appeared.

Nice work, everyone. :)

-C

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> wrote:

Am 18.02.2017 um 21:30 schrieb C R:

...

Looks awesome, Martin! Only one thing I would change is that the width and height fields don't seem to be editable anymore, and I definitely use that feature. Often you don't really want to fiddle with the dpi, and you know your width and height, so it's great to just be able to type in what you need and let Inkscape calculate the dpi for you.

Everything else looks stellar. Much cleaner, and also that "batch export selected objects" checkbox gives me mini joygasms. :)

• That option isn't new... only greyed out when nothing is selected. But

maybe the dialog even confused you ;-)

Maren

...

Thanks! -C

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:

...

Hi Jabier,

Thanks for cutting through the drama :-) I was thinking of a similar solution to yours while reading the backlog.

A set of raster exporting extensions would be very useful, especially if they're in python.

There's a lot of C++ code in our project that pops up extensions windows and a bunch of other things. I think the GUI should be handled by the script (but that would mean a version of pygtk or similar).

I'm attaching what I would love to be able to do to the inkscape Export PNG dialog. Maybe Mo (Máirín) and CR have some things to add too. (generated from a glade file which I'm also attaching)

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Sat, 2017-02-18 at 17:14 +0100, Jabier Arraiza wrote:

...

Hi I have a idea about this things. Currently we have a hook on finish export to PNG to close inkscape, the proposal is: Substitute this toogle with a combo box filled with inkscape share folder export scripts: do_do nothing.py -> "Do Nothing" close_inkscape.py -> "Close Inkscape" close_computer.py -> "Close Computer" pngquant_10_20.py -> "pnggquant_10_20" -> pngquant pngquant_30_60.py -> "pngquant_30_60" JPG.py -> "JPG" TIFF.py -> "TIFF" mycustom_upload_share_script.py -> "My Custom Upload Share Script"

Maybe with a prompt to ask parameters on start

Any thoughts? Cheers, Jabier.

On Sat, 2017-02-18 at 14:44 +0000, C R wrote:

...

More PNG optimisation features would be great. I'd love it if I could use them in place of jpegs at the same file sizes I need, if they are also of equivalent visual quality.

-C

On 18 Feb 2017 2:24 p.m., "Alexandre Prokoudine" <alexandre.prokoudin e@...400...> wrote:

...

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

> >> >> Built-in pngquant or pngcrush would be a great feature. >> > I think http://optipng.sourceforge.net/ is better than > pngcrush. OptiPNG what I use too. I just don't have a particular opinion on the available options :)

Alex

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Tried optipng, but unfortunately could get nowhere near the compression I'd need vs jpeg. We're talking greater than 10 times more compressed results with jpegs for nearly the same visual quality.

I'm afraid it just doesn't cut it, unfortunately. :/ -C

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

More PNG optimisation features would be great. I'd love it if I could use them in place of jpegs at the same file sizes I need, if they are also of equivalent visual quality.

-C

On 18 Feb 2017 2:24 p.m., "Alexandre Prokoudine" <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:

...

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

...

...

Built-in pngquant or pngcrush would be a great feature.

I think http://optipng.sourceforge.net/ is better than pngcrush.

OptiPNG what I use too. I just don't have a particular opinion on the available options :)

Alex

---

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Jabier turned me on to pngquant offlist. It certainly seems better at (lossy) optimisation of pngs than optipng. However it comes nowhere near to the compression capabilities of just a regular jpeg. I'm able to shrink a 1.8 MB png to 798kb, but a 70% quality jpeg shrinks to approx 141KB.

Keep in mind that for e-commerce website, your site is ranked by search engines by how fast it loads, and how much data it uses. 798KB might not seem like a lot, but when you have a product with 5 images to display, plus the site graphics, it's still unacceptably large.

Also, I'm hesitant to suggest lossy optimisation for pngs. The thing i like about pngs are that they are not lossy, which is definitely useful. I expect jpegs to be lossy. I also expect them to be tiny comparatively at the same resolution, so it's a good trade-off. I think probably the last thing users want to do is be fiddling with file format compression options on their pngs, but I've added pngquant to my graphics tools in case I need transparency + as small a file as possible. It's good to know there's a middle-ground that uses pngs.

Unfortunately, even with optimisation, pngs are still not useful for e-commerce web content.

-C

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> wrote:

Just a tiny bit of input, if sometime there's a decision between optipng and pngquant: Some time (years) ago there was a test in freiesMagazin (which is offline now :-() where pngquant came out as the winner in terms of quality-size relationship.

See http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tJjnl9ViTaUJ:http://www...

Maren

Am 18.02.2017 um 17:17 schrieb C R:

...

Tried optipng, but unfortunately could get nowhere near the compression I'd need vs jpeg. We're talking greater than 10 times more compressed results with jpegs for nearly the same visual quality.

I'm afraid it just doesn't cut it, unfortunately. :/ -C

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 2:44 PM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

More PNG optimisation features would be great. I'd love it if I could use them in place of jpegs at the same file sizes I need, if they are also of equivalent visual quality.

-C

On 18 Feb 2017 2:24 p.m., "Alexandre Prokoudine" <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:

...

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

...

...

Built-in pngquant or pngcrush would be a great feature.

I think http://optipng.sourceforge.net/ is better than pngcrush.

OptiPNG what I use too. I just don't have a particular opinion on the available options :)

Alex

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C R wrote

Telling people jpeg is wrong, by it's self will do little good. Showing them, and letting them make the call will always be more compelling, I think. :)

Sure. Quoted.

C R wrote

I think we could provide most common formats and still educate people about which to use. Inkscape could, for example smartly suggest the format that produces the best results/size for the current output. We could do something like suggest .png when the resulting png file would use less space, and be higher quality export. This is more eco-friendly too, and adds real value to the decision.

This would be great and effective. I don't know how much effort this can take but it would probably be worth it and add value to the program. I'd suggest PNG also if it's slightly bigger than the minimum, say +10/20%, because such a penalty in size probably doesn't justify the penalty in quality, at least in the context of starting from a vectorial drawing (and because I prefer PNG :) ).

But I stick with the "Do not show again." checkbox for those that already know and don't want to be bothered at every export. Or maybe: a "Compare raster formats" button in the export dialog that does the calculations only on demand as for big files it could take a lot of time generating all outputs to get their sizes. And what about a small prewiew box showing the conversion result of a fixed size portion of the final drawing (a live preview with panning)?

Luca

-- View this message in context: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-0-92-review-in-German-tp4978859p49... Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

...

...

For the article I tested the Windows version, and the complaint didn't

refer the dialogue as such but the tiny object tree window that can't be enlarged to display more elements.

Assuming that I am looking at the correct dialog, the Objects dialog can be enlarged by dragging the bottom edge down, as shown in the attached screenshot.

This is, admittedly, quite unfriendly, because one is required to search very patiently for the appropriate place to drag down. The appropriate place is the bottom of the entire panel, instead of the bottom of the scroll pane, as one might expect. However, the unfriendliness is, I think, courtesy of gtk, not Inkscape. Ideally, one would like to see the scroll pane size be somewhat proportional to the number of objects in it. objectdialog.png http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/file/n4978923/objectdialog.png Alvin

-- View this message in context: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-0-92-review-in-German-tp4978859p49... Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

On 02/15/2017 09:14 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:

It is the other way around: Some Inkscape features are patented (does Spiro ring a bell?)

No, please elaborate.

Best Regards, Alexander

On Thu, 2017-02-16 at 15:38 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Alexander Brock wrote:

...

On 02/15/2017 09:14 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:

...

It is the other way around: Some Inkscape features are patented (does Spiro ring a bell?)

No, please elaborate.

https://github.com/fontforge/libspiro/blob/master/README-RaphLevien

Please note that Raph doesn't explicitly forbid the use of Spiro technology in proprietary software.

Also, this is the only patent that Christoph referred to while mentioning multiple patents.

That would likely be this one:

https://www.google.com/patents/US8520003?dq=Raph+Levien&hl=en&sa=X&a... 0ahUKEwiJg-n645TSAhWNUSYKHQ_gAdsQ6AEIHDAA

Filed 2013, granted 2014, so US only and will probably expire in 2028 (although google's form doesn't say)

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On 17 February 2017 at 10:26, "Christoph Schäfer" <christoph-schaefer@...173...> wrote:

Another Prokoudine reading failure. I only referred to several features based on the patent, not multiple patents, in the article.

But that's Alex Prokoudine and his superficial pedantry for you ...

Christoph, whatever issue you may have with Alexandre I suggest that you deal with it in private or on a parking lot with two swords or something but certainly not here. I'm absolutely not interested and I'm probably not the only one.

Cheers, JFL

An idea that Martin and I cooked up at the LGM impromptu Inkscape extended staircase hackfest, was inflatable oversized baseball bats with the Inkscape CCOC printed on them. I'd like to officially resurrect that idea. ;)

Thinking out loud... https://www.dropbox.com/s/9fla8jr5g9z58zj/inkscape_community_coc_inflatable_...

It's not always easy to take criticism, and sometimes even harder to give it without offending. :)

-C

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:19 AM, J. F. Lemaire <jflemaire@...621...> wrote:

...

On 17 February 2017 at 10:26, "Christoph Schäfer" <christoph-schaefer@...173...> wrote:

...

Another Prokoudine reading failure. I only referred to several features based on the patent, not multiple patents, in the article.

But that's Alex Prokoudine and his superficial pedantry for you ...

Christoph, whatever issue you may have with Alexandre I suggest that you deal with it in private or on a parking lot with two swords or something but certainly not here. I'm absolutely not interested and I'm probably not the only one.

Cheers, JFL -- Jean-François Lemaire

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...

Thinking out loud... https://www.dropbox.com/s/9fla8jr5g9z58zj/inkscape_community_coc_inflatable_...

Now that's pretty awesome. :-)

Thanks! This is NOT one I'd need to export to jpeg, obviously. ;)

-C

When I read this message, I thought - well, whatever it is, save it, because we will have a moderation team. Hopefully sooner than later.

But when I saw the image, I changed my mind. I wouldn't want people to think of moderators as thugs. They should be seen as helpful friends. Maybe image of a handshake. Or maybe some kind of cleaning symbol - vacuum cleaner, broom, etc.

Best, brynn PS - and the same - CoC shouldn't be seen as a threatening force - rather as a guide, or maybe contract, or something like that.

-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:56 PM To: Bryce Harrington ; C R Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape 0.92 review in German

On Fri, 2017-02-17 at 14:53 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:

...

Thinking out loud... https://www.dropbox.com/s/9fla8jr5g9z58zj/inkscape_community_coc_in

flatable_bat.svg?dl=0

Now that's pretty awesome. :-)

Oh I wish we had a moderation team so I could use that as the icon. ;-)

Great work as always CR.

Martin,

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