should a change in document units be undone by ctrl-Z ?
there is a difference between Inkscape 0.48.5 and current trunk with respect to this issue. In Inkscape 0.48.5 a change in document units is not undone by ctrl-Z.
in 0.48.5: - draw object - change document units - hit ctrl-Z, object disappears but the new units are kept - hit ctrl-Z again, nothing happens
in trunk, rev 13534: - draw object (preferably not a rectangle) - change document units - hit ctrl-Z, units revert back to original - hit ctrl-Z again, object disappears
Personally I prefer the behavior of Inkscape 0.48.5. It seems to me that ctrl-Z should apply only to visible objects, and document units is not a visible object.
Apart from that, the current behavior leads to a crash if you use a rectangle, see: https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1348382
thoughts? Alvin
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On 2014-08-27 01:27 , alvinpenner wrote:
Personally I prefer the behavior of Inkscape 0.48.5. It seems to me that ctrl-Z should apply only to visible objects, and document units is not a visible object.
OTOH there is an older bug report about various changes to the document (via 'Document Properties' dialog) not being recorded in the undo history:
- Bug #592011 “Various Document Properties aren't undoable” https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/592011
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 4:27 PM, alvinpenner <penner@...1856...> wrote:
Personally I prefer the behavior of Inkscape 0.48.5. It seems to me that ctrl-Z should apply only to visible objects, and document units is not a visible object.
So you don't think you should be able to undo an actual modification to the document? To me, this is precisely a thing I would hope would be kept in the undo history. It was a step I intentionally took to modify my document. However, I can see the other side if you view the document as a container and not part of the content.
I also don't think we should avoid fixing bugs properly. Hiding what exposed a bug isn't the right strategy. ;)
Cheers, Josh
I think that the modification on the document properties, such as page size, colour system and stuff like that is not the same type of modification of an actual alteration on the document. The control-z thing is even more uncecessary because you can undo those features by using the document properties menu. The alterations caused by the document page size changes are not permanent like a filter. You can still work on the document even if its page measures 1 km wide. (of course, this is an exageration...) but the thing is - it doesn't matter when you edit those settings, and control-z seems really unecessary for it.
Cheers Artemis/Oscar
On 26 August 2014 23:05, Josh Andler <scislac@...400...> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 4:27 PM, alvinpenner <penner@...1856...> wrote:
Personally I prefer the behavior of Inkscape 0.48.5. It seems to me that ctrl-Z should apply only to visible objects, and document units is not a visible object.
So you don't think you should be able to undo an actual modification to the document? To me, this is precisely a thing I would hope would be kept in the undo history. It was a step I intentionally took to modify my document. However, I can see the other side if you view the document as a container and not part of the content.
I also don't think we should avoid fixing bugs properly. Hiding what exposed a bug isn't the right strategy. ;)
Cheers, Josh
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On Tue, 2014-08-26 at 19:05 -0700, Josh Andler wrote:
I also don't think we should avoid fixing bugs properly. Hiding what exposed a bug isn't the right strategy. ;)
I agree here. The document undo is for the whole document, including the svg tag and any attributes or meta data therein.
Part of the bug is the inability to deal with the document size, colour etc on screen. We could fix this with a few remedies such as allowing the document to be selectable or having a document tool instead of a document properties box (which has a LOt of stuff in it)
Martin,
What if… we make it just like on photoshop: A initial screen with document settings and then all those settings are spread on different parts of the program? There is a button for document size, another one for colour system, another one for resolution…
On Aug 27, 2014, at 12:21 AM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
On Tue, 2014-08-26 at 19:05 -0700, Josh Andler wrote:
I also don't think we should avoid fixing bugs properly. Hiding what exposed a bug isn't the right strategy. ;)
I agree here. The document undo is for the whole document, including the svg tag and any attributes or meta data therein.
Part of the bug is the inability to deal with the document size, colour etc on screen. We could fix this with a few remedies such as allowing the document to be selectable or having a document tool instead of a document properties box (which has a LOt of stuff in it)
Martin,
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(hit sent away too early) This is more logical for new users and then the control-z for document property action would make more sense. The document settings screen is too confusing on inkscape.
versus
Some things just don’t make sense on this screen. we have areas that are really cluttered with information and other areas that have nothing. For instance, the border colour thingy is HUGE. All the other colour showing areas on inkscape have different sizes. I don’t even see why this setting is here, as it will not interfere with the final document. This should be on inkscape settings! But well, this is for another discussion (I would like to propose a new screen… where should I do that?)
Cherios,
Oscar
On Aug 27, 2014, at 12:21 AM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
On Tue, 2014-08-26 at 19:05 -0700, Josh Andler wrote:
I also don't think we should avoid fixing bugs properly. Hiding what exposed a bug isn't the right strategy. ;)
I agree here. The document undo is for the whole document, including the svg tag and any attributes or meta data therein.
Part of the bug is the inability to deal with the document size, colour etc on screen. We could fix this with a few remedies such as allowing the document to be selectable or having a document tool instead of a document properties box (which has a LOt of stuff in it)
Martin,
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On Wed, 2014-08-27 at 00:36 -0300, Artemis Scheepstra wrote:
Some things just don’t make sense on this screen.
Look at that tab list too :-) it's wonderful.
A proper UX session on this part of Inkscape would be great, but it's sitting in a queue for me to do it. But it is something we should have a bug report about with the right tags. (if not already)
Martin,
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
Part of the bug is the inability to deal with the document size, colour etc on screen. We could fix this with a few remedies such as allowing the document to be selectable or having a document tool instead of a document properties box (which has a LOt of stuff in it)
Such a tool would also allow us to add/edit/remove viewboxes easily and visually. Only because the LPE Tool and Gradient Mesh are still disabled, it's not as obvious, but, we will need to explore the toolbox and what will be the best path for adding new tools. The expansion menu is really a poor way to handle it. We could go the gimp route of a resizeable toolbox, or possibly the click-hold to expand and show similar tools (what the adobe products and svg-edit do) as just a couple thoughts.
Cheers, Josh
The discussion about reworking the Document Properties dialog should really happen in it's own thread and/or bug report. So back to the initial topic about including document property changes when hitting Ctrl+Z.
The control-z thing is even more uncecessary because you can undo those
features by using the document properties menu.
Which menu are you talking about? If you mean the Document Properties dialog, how can you undo the changes you made there automatically?
Obviously the opinions on whether to include document properties when Ctrl+Z is pressed are split. So what about introducing an option to control this behavior? A quick vote could then clarify, which behavior to choose as default.
For clarification, when you're talking about Ctrl+Z you actually mean the undo history, right? Because it could also be that the Undo History dialog includes all changes, i.e. to the contents and the document, while Ctrl+Z only reverts content changes.
Sebastian
On 27 August 2014 07:56, Josh Andler <scislac@...400...> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
Part of the bug is the inability to deal with the document size, colour etc on screen. We could fix this with a few remedies such as allowing the document to be selectable or having a document tool instead of a document properties box (which has a LOt of stuff in it)
Such a tool would also allow us to add/edit/remove viewboxes easily and visually. Only because the LPE Tool and Gradient Mesh are still disabled, it's not as obvious, but, we will need to explore the toolbox and what will be the best path for adding new tools. The expansion menu is really a poor way to handle it. We could go the gimp route of a resizeable toolbox, or possibly the click-hold to expand and show similar tools (what the adobe products and svg-edit do) as just a couple thoughts.
Cheers, Josh
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On 27 August 2014 09:18, Sebastian Zartner <sebastianzartner@...400...> wrote:
The discussion about reworking the Document Properties dialog should really happen in it's own thread and/or bug report. So back to the initial topic about including document property changes when hitting Ctrl+Z.
FWIW I created a blueprint at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/inkscape/+spec/document-properties-rework. Hope that's the right way to start on that.
Sebastian
The control-z thing is even more uncecessary because you can undo those
features by using the document properties menu.
Which menu are you talking about? If you mean the Document Properties dialog, how can you undo the changes you made there automatically?
Obviously the opinions on whether to include document properties when Ctrl+Z is pressed are split. So what about introducing an option to control this behavior? A quick vote could then clarify, which behavior to choose as default.
For clarification, when you're talking about Ctrl+Z you actually mean the undo history, right? Because it could also be that the Undo History dialog includes all changes, i.e. to the contents and the document, while Ctrl+Z only reverts content changes.
Sebastian
On 27 August 2014 07:56, Josh Andler <scislac@...400...> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
Part of the bug is the inability to deal with the document size, colour etc on screen. We could fix this with a few remedies such as allowing the document to be selectable or having a document tool instead of a document properties box (which has a LOt of stuff in it)
Such a tool would also allow us to add/edit/remove viewboxes easily and visually. Only because the LPE Tool and Gradient Mesh are still disabled, it's not as obvious, but, we will need to explore the toolbox and what will be the best path for adding new tools. The expansion menu is really a poor way to handle it. We could go the gimp route of a resizeable toolbox, or possibly the click-hold to expand and show similar tools (what the adobe products and svg-edit do) as just a couple thoughts.
Cheers, Josh
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Yes, the dialog. Sorry, I was a tad drunk. hehe. I think it should be on the history, YES, but not be done by pressing the control-z buttons. A voting would be a good solution, otherwise we will be keep saying "this is better!" "no, that is better" "this" "that" "banana" Is it doable to add an option on inkscape preferences to trigger this behaviour?
Oscar
On 27 August 2014 05:38, Sebastian Zartner <sebastianzartner@...400...> wrote:
On 27 August 2014 09:18, Sebastian Zartner <sebastianzartner@...400...> wrote:
The discussion about reworking the Document Properties dialog should really happen in it's own thread and/or bug report. So back to the initial topic about including document property changes when hitting Ctrl+Z.
FWIW I created a blueprint at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/inkscape/+spec/document-properties-rework. Hope that's the right way to start on that.
Sebastian
The control-z thing is even more uncecessary because you can undo those
features by using the document properties menu.
Which menu are you talking about? If you mean the Document Properties dialog, how can you undo the changes you made there automatically?
Obviously the opinions on whether to include document properties when Ctrl+Z is pressed are split. So what about introducing an option to control this behavior? A quick vote could then clarify, which behavior to choose as default.
For clarification, when you're talking about Ctrl+Z you actually mean the undo history, right? Because it could also be that the Undo History dialog includes all changes, i.e. to the contents and the document, while Ctrl+Z only reverts content changes.
Sebastian
On 27 August 2014 07:56, Josh Andler <scislac@...400...> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
Part of the bug is the inability to deal with the document size, colour etc on screen. We could fix this with a few remedies such as allowing the document to be selectable or having a document tool instead of a document properties box (which has a LOt of stuff in it)
Such a tool would also allow us to add/edit/remove viewboxes easily and visually. Only because the LPE Tool and Gradient Mesh are still disabled, it's not as obvious, but, we will need to explore the toolbox and what will be the best path for adding new tools. The expansion menu is really a poor way to handle it. We could go the gimp route of a resizeable toolbox, or possibly the click-hold to expand and show similar tools (what the adobe products and svg-edit do) as just a couple thoughts.
Cheers, Josh
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On Wed, 2014-08-27 at 10:05 -0300, Oscar Scheepstra wrote:
Yes, the dialog. Sorry, I was a tad drunk. hehe. I think it should be on the history, YES, but not be done by pressing the control-z buttons.
A voting would be a good solution, otherwise we will be keep saying "this is better!" "no, that is better" "this" "that" "banana"
Is it doable to add an option on inkscape preferences to trigger this behaviour?
I'm not sure a vote would be as useful. It only would collect data on people's opinions and their current understanding of the issue.
So, what data would be useful? Since this is a UX issue, I propose a UX test with two parts:
1. Instructions to create a shape, change it's properties, then change the document property, then ask the user to undo the shape change properties. Ask/monitor what they thought would happen. 2. Same as 1. but ask the user to undo the document property instead.
Test is easier to carry out in person, we could put together a spreadsheet to collect the data.
If the data shows people expect document properties to be undone, then we should see to it that all property changes end up in the undo history. Otherwise we can think about removing document properties.
Thoughts?
Martin,
participants (7)
-
alvinpenner -
Artemis Scheepstra -
Josh Andler -
Martin Owens -
Oscar Scheepstra -
Sebastian Zartner -
su_v