After realizing that there was something strange about the text size in my inkscape designs I followed the bugs associated (#168151, #168164, #168344, #170099 - some of them seem to be duplicates) and there I noticed that the text size in inkscape is expressed in pixels, but the dialog doesn't inform that. In fact, there's no way to set the font size to other units but the XML editor (and as far as I could see, it doesn't work either).
In every vector illustration program the font size is expressed (by default) in points because one of the common outputs for the illustrations is print. Vector illustration programs are usually the most adecuate option to create flyers, simple brochures, logos, etc, so the use of real units is needed for type. In graphic design the default units for type are points (there are different measures for typographic points but in DTP 1 pt = 1/72"). Having typography in pixels is a big headache for graphic designers, mostly because the "12" value set by default is used as the default value en other design programs, but points, not pixels. Even office programs use points as default type units, so the common user will be expecting points and not pixels.
In my opinion, the way that inkscape manages units is fine, but an option for setting the default units globally is needed. Currently, you have pixels everywhere and you have to change every time and everywhere to real units if you need to use them. That sucks and is a tedious and time consuming task (prone to errors too). It's a consistency issue too. The default inkscape artwork size is a DIN A4 size page, which is a phisical, real measure. If I have a "real" page as a container, I would expect to use real units as measures, but it's mixed up. Vector graphics are used to create elements that can be scaled without having to worry about the pixel size, so using pixels as default units doesn't make sense (imho).
I'm not saying: change px for pt or mm. Of course if I have to create a website mockup I'll use pixels and not milimeters. Every choice is useful in different scenarios, but they need to be streamlined to make the options consistent with the needed workflow.
I think that adding a simple category "units" in the preferences should fix the problem. Having the ability to choose the units globally for objects and type will allow users to adapt inkscape to their specific needs and will bring more consistency to the UI.
What do you think about this?
Regards, Gez.
Actually, since Inkscape is an SVG editor, it makes sense that its default unit is pixels, since SVG is a web standard, and web designers use pixel sizes primarily in their designs.
However, Inkscape is, as you pointed out, extremely useful (and used for) graphic design. So it would be nice to have an option to change the "master unit" for a file, so that it is reflected everywhere.
As far as text sizes go, it would probably be a good idea to be able to use whatever real units are available for other objects. Of course, points are relative to the pixel-per-unit ratio, so you all you really have to do is a quick mental calculation (unless you're using a really odd ratio for "ppu"). But it would be a bit of a time and trouble saver.
JF
Guillermo Espertino wrote:
After realizing that there was something strange about the text size in my inkscape designs I followed the bugs associated (#168151, #168164, #168344, #170099 - some of them seem to be duplicates) and there I noticed that the text size in inkscape is expressed in pixels, but the dialog doesn't inform that. In fact, there's no way to set the font size to other units but the XML editor (and as far as I could see, it doesn't work either).
In every vector illustration program the font size is expressed (by default) in points because one of the common outputs for the illustrations is print. Vector illustration programs are usually the most adecuate option to create flyers, simple brochures, logos, etc, so the use of real units is needed for type. In graphic design the default units for type are points (there are different measures for typographic points but in DTP 1 pt = 1/72"). Having typography in pixels is a big headache for graphic designers, mostly because the "12" value set by default is used as the default value en other design programs, but points, not pixels. Even office programs use points as default type units, so the common user will be expecting points and not pixels.
In my opinion, the way that inkscape manages units is fine, but an option for setting the default units globally is needed. Currently, you have pixels everywhere and you have to change every time and everywhere to real units if you need to use them. That sucks and is a tedious and time consuming task (prone to errors too). It's a consistency issue too. The default inkscape artwork size is a DIN A4 size page, which is a phisical, real measure. If I have a "real" page as a container, I would expect to use real units as measures, but it's mixed up. Vector graphics are used to create elements that can be scaled without having to worry about the pixel size, so using pixels as default units doesn't make sense (imho).
I'm not saying: change px for pt or mm. Of course if I have to create a website mockup I'll use pixels and not milimeters. Every choice is useful in different scenarios, but they need to be streamlined to make the options consistent with the needed workflow.
I think that adding a simple category "units" in the preferences should fix the problem. Having the ability to choose the units globally for objects and type will allow users to adapt inkscape to their specific needs and will bring more consistency to the UI.
What do you think about this?
Regards, Gez.
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Of course, points are relative to the pixel-per-unit ratio, so you all you really have to do is a quick mental calculation (unless you're using a really odd ratio for "ppu"). But it would be a bit of a time and trouble saver.
Typographic points aren't. The default measure used in DTP is 1/72 inches. You shouln't need to do any mental calculation to know the height of a 10 pt type box. For instance, in my country legal texts can't be smaller than 8 points. That's something that has nothing to do with screen resolution. Typographic points are a real world unit. I'm not sure how it's implemented in SVG, but it more likely would be using 72 dpi as standard resolution so the typographic point matches to the screen points. But that has to be a reference only because resolution may vary.
And about your first sentence: I'm ok with Inkscape being an SVG editor, but it's announced like a vector illustration program in the website (comparable to Illustrator, Corel, etc.) And that's what most users will expect of the program. People see Inkscape as a Corel/illustration free alternative, not like something "for editing SVG" even when Inkscape actually is a SVG editor. So imo, the XML editor should be used for advanced operations, not for everyday stuff like setting the size of a typeface.
Gez.
On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:57:20 -0000, Guillermo Espertino <gespertino@...400...> wrote:
Of course, points are relative to the pixel-per-unit ratio, so you all you really have to do is a quick mental calculation (unless you're using a really odd ratio for "ppu"). But it would be a bit of a time and trouble saver.
Typographic points aren't. The default measure used in DTP is 1/72 inches.
In fact, that's a Postscript point, chosen by Adobe for no obvious reason. Typographic points are 72.27 to the inch. Either would do, frankly!
I'm not sure how it's implemented in SVG, but it more likely would be using 72 dpi as standard resolution so the typographic point matches to the screen points. But that has to be a reference only because resolution may vary.
The resolution of my screen here is about 92dpi.
And about your first sentence: I'm ok with Inkscape being an SVG editor, but it's announced like a vector illustration program in the website (comparable to Illustrator, Corel, etc.) And that's what most users will expect of the program.
Totally agree. I don't actually see the point of Inkscape for the Web since very little displays SVG by default. I use it for graphic design of letterheads, advertisements and various other print-related jobs. I do use it for web work too, but vector work has traditionally been aimed at print for obvious reasons.
People see Inkscape as a Corel/illustration free alternative, not like something "for editing SVG" even when Inkscape actually is a SVG editor.
I'd be astounded if more than 10% of users thought of Inkscape as an editor for SVG! It's a vector art package.
So imo, the XML editor should be used for advanced operations, not for everyday stuff like setting the size of a typeface.
Totally agree again.
Sadly font-handling across platforms is a difficult task and is probably Inkscape's weakest area because of platform differences and the weakness on Linux of the libraries being used. Someday when I win the lottery or finish my novel I'll do something about it (or give Gail a huge cheque to do it!)
Thomas
Thomas Worthington wrote:
Sadly font-handling across platforms is a difficult task and is probably Inkscape's weakest area because of platform differences and the weakness on Linux of the libraries being used. Someday when I win the lottery or finish my novel I'll do something about it (or give Gail a huge cheque to do it!)
:D
Just wait until I am not busy with school projects ;)
Text is not glamorous or exciting like some of the other tools in a package like Inkscape. That's why so few people want to do it. I guess I always just felt bad for it being all neglected and such ...
Gail
Thomas Worthington wrote:
On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:57:20 -0000, Guillermo Espertino <gespertino@...400...> wrote:
Of course, points are relative to the pixel-per-unit ratio, so you all you really have to do is a quick mental calculation (unless you're using a really odd ratio for "ppu"). But it would be a bit of a time and trouble saver.
Typographic points aren't. The default measure used in DTP is 1/72 inches.
And when it is rendered, which it must be at some point to be human-usable, it is rendered into a pixel-per-unit raster image of some sort. So, yes, it is relative to ppu.
And about your first sentence: I'm ok with Inkscape being an SVG editor,
Good, since that's what it is...
but it's announced like a vector illustration program in the website (comparable to Illustrator, Corel, etc.) And that's what most users will expect of the program.
Yes, and it is also made obvious that it uses SVG as its standard document format. The roadmap points out the way to achieving compliance with the SVG spec, which is a web standard. And, like Illustrator and Corel, many people use it for web graphics design.
Totally agree. I don't actually see the point of Inkscape for the Web since very little displays SVG by default.
Well, you can use any tool any way you like, but a tool designer has to design a tool for a specific job/jobset, or he ends up with no tool at all. If you don't see the point of using Inkscape for the web, I don't know what to tell you.
I use it for graphic design of letterheads, advertisements and various other print-related jobs. I do use it for web work too, but vector work has traditionally been aimed at print for obvious reasons.
Using your own logic, how many printers do you know take SVG files for printing? Not many, since it's a web graphics spec. So you should also not see it as a tool for print graphic design, either. I don't think your reasons are so obvious. Part of the usefulness of vector in web usage is size, part is scalability...sounds like the same reasons it's used for print.
People see Inkscape as a Corel/illustration free alternative, not like something "for editing SVG" even when Inkscape actually is a SVG editor.
I'd be astounded if more than 10% of users thought of Inkscape as an editor for SVG! It's a vector art package.
Well, whatever. Just trying to give some insight as to why things might make sense in a broader scope than your own personal usage.
So imo, the XML editor should be used for advanced operations, not for everyday stuff like setting the size of a typeface.
Sure. But the issue of default units should be determined by what the tool is primarily designed for. And nobody can deny that SVG, which is the standard format, is a web spec, for which pixels are the de facto non-relative standard unit.
Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
And when it is rendered, which it must be at some point to be human-usable, it is rendered into a pixel-per-unit raster image of some sort. So, yes, it is relative to ppu.
Yes, Joshua. That's true. But that doesn't matter for the user. That pixel-per-unit raster has presentation purposes only and user shouldn't care about it. If somebody tells you "use a 12 pt text for that brochure" you'll think inmediately in a real world size, not in pixels. When you work for print you think in the output phisical dimensions, no matter what size your screen shows.
Yes, and it is also made obvious that it uses SVG as its standard document format. The roadmap points out the way to achieving compliance with the SVG spec, which is a web standard. And, like Illustrator and Corel, many people use it for web graphics design.
And there's nothing wrong with it. I use inkscape both for print and web mockups. So pixels and real world units are useful. But when you need one type of units in particular you want to set the whole program to work with it. Changing every time every dialog to the needed units is painfully tedious.
Well, you can use any tool any way you like, but a tool designer has to design a tool for a specific job/jobset, or he ends up with no tool at all. If you don't see the point of using Inkscape for the web, I don't know what to tell you.
Again, there's nothing wrong with using Inkscape as a tool for the web. But since it's not the only use you can give it, there's no point in restricting it ONLY for web use. It is quite obvious that many people will use it for print or signs, so the tool should fit in every case of use nicely.
Using your own logic, how many printers do you know take SVG files for printing? Not many, since it's a web graphics spec. So you should also not see it as a tool for print graphic design, either. I don't think your reasons are so obvious. Part of the usefulness of vector in web usage is size, part is scalability...sounds like the same reasons it's used for print.
It's not about the SVG format at all. Following your logic you shouldn't be using inkscape for bitmap images, because SVG format a vectorial format. An SVG file can be exported to bitmap, converted to other formats or imported in other programs. When I worked with Illustrator, I used to rasterize my work and send it to the print shop as 300 dpi CMYK tiffs. I can do almost the same with inkscape (actually, I've just finished a brochure using inkscape and I'll separate it into CMYK using the separate+ Gimp plugin).
So imo, the XML editor should be used for advanced operations, not for everyday stuff like setting the size of a typeface.
Sure. But the issue of default units should be determined by what the tool is primarily designed for. And nobody can deny that SVG, which is the standard format, is a web spec, for which pixels are the de facto non-relative standard unit.
Nobody is denying anything. SVG format is the format choosen for Inkscape and that's great. It's a very good format, it's a standard. We all love it. But you can't force the 80-90% of the users to learn the SVG internals if they want to design a business card with inkscape. Vector illustration packages use real units because vectors are a scalable alternative for pixel based design. And scalable means size. And size is a real world measure. You can't tell how many pixels fit in an A4 without specifying the resolution. And resolution is a value for translating something that only exists in a computer screen into real world units. That's already implemented, you can choose the units you want. I don't understand why would be so wrong allowing the user to choose the default units.
I don't understand why would be so wrong allowing the user to choose the default units.
Neither do I. That's why, in my original response, I wrote, in agreement with you,
"However, Inkscape is, as you pointed out, extremely useful (and used for) graphic design. So it would be nice to have an option to change the "master unit" for a file, so that it is reflected everywhere."
The only contrary point I made was,
"since Inkscape is an SVG editor, it makes sense that its default unit is pixels, since SVG is a web standard, and web designers use pixel sizes primarily in their designs"
in response to your contention that
"Vector graphics are used to create elements that can be scaled without having to worry about the pixel size, so using pixels as default units doesn't make sense (imho)."
If you read carefully, I agreed with everything else, and supported what you said about being able to change units easily and having text sizes in points.
I'm really not trying to be argumentative, just got rankled when my explanation and supportive comment were taken incorrectly. I'm sorry about that.
JF
Thomas Worthington wrote:
In fact, that's a Postscript point, chosen by Adobe for no obvious reason. Typographic points are 72.27 to the inch. Either would do, frankly!
Yes, I know. Anyway the Postscript point has been choosen by every design package as a default unit (they let you change it to standard typographic points if you want it). I'm not sure, but it has to be due to the massive adoption of EPS format in vector illustration and page layout programs (before PDF)
I'm not sure how it's implemented in SVG, but it more likely would be using 72 dpi as standard resolution so the typographic point matches to the screen points. But that has to be a reference only because resolution may vary.
The resolution of my screen here is about 92dpi.
Yes, and mine is 106dpi. Scribus has a nice method to show the artwork in "real size" calculating the monitor resolution. Anyway, it shouln't have impact in type size. 1/72 inches is a real world DTP point, and that's what a designer will expect in the print output, despite the screen resolution.
Regards, Gez
participants (4)
-
Gail Carmichael -
Guillermo Espertino -
Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art -
Thomas Worthington