Save and Save As, Save a Copy vs Export
There are several bug reports and feature requests that show how people find the current Save and Save As combination to be cumbersome to work with, but.. reading feature requests such as #1520237, #1085718, #1282332, #1377887, #1388131 and #1511930 it is clear that there are as many ideas as reporters on what the best solution is. and often is this idea very much influenced by what other applications the reporter has used before
What are the plans (or thoughts and ideas) about how Inkscape should work regarding saving and exporting files in the future? Is there an Inkscape GUI guru (group?) deciding on what the best strategy is? Is there a document describing such a common goal everyone can help work towards?
There seems to be two works in progress in Svn; a new export dialog that also includes vector formats and a new save a copy dialog. My personal preference goes for extending an existing dialog, but wish to hear whether this is all part of a bigger plan.
Ulf Erikson wrote:
There are several bug reports and feature requests that show how people find the current Save and Save As combination to be cumbersome to work with, but.. reading feature requests such as #1520237, #1085718, #1282332, #1377887, #1388131 and #1511930 it is clear that there are as many ideas as reporters on what the best solution is. and often is this idea very much influenced by what other applications the reporter has used before
What are the plans (or thoughts and ideas) about how Inkscape should work regarding saving and exporting files in the future? Is there an Inkscape GUI guru (group?) deciding on what the best strategy is? Is there a document describing such a common goal everyone can help work towards?
Well it would be great to have a GUI group to discuss further appearance and functionality of Inkscape ;) at the time all this GUI talk seems to be part of devel list...
There seems to be two works in progress in Svn; a new export dialog that also includes vector formats and a new save a copy dialog. My personal preference goes for extending an existing dialog, but wish to hear whether this is all part of a bigger plan.
From other apps I used, the Export command always worked as a multi format exporter. Not just to one specific format. Current export dialog is great for its detailed settings (but lacks PNG format settings) but it differs from common Save/Open dialogs in gnome. I think that if Inkscape want to follow HID like other gnome apps the export commnad should first show a standard save dialog specifying the file name, extension/format and path. After hitting OK it should display a dialog where user could specify details which are tightly binded to the selected exporting format (eg. export text as curves for PDF, resolution for png and bitmaps generaly, etc) along with specifying document area of export like in current PNG export dialog. Like GIMP does that.
About the question of different functionality of Save as and Export. Save as should only save with different name with option to select from SVG and compressed SVG. Cos Save as command is widely used as a command for working on a new copy, so user expects to have the "Saved as" file to be a further editable native format of his document. Export function is mainly taken as a function to "deliver my work to someone who will not edit it any more" like print houses, my collegue who needs just a bitmap copy of my document and so...
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, graffoo wrote:
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:39:20 +0200 From: graffoo <graffoo@...400...> To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Save and Save As, Save a Copy vs Export
Ulf Erikson wrote:
There are several bug reports and feature requests that show how people find the current Save and Save As combination to be cumbersome to work with, but.. reading feature requests such as #1520237, #1085718, #1282332, #1377887, #1388131 and #1511930 it is clear that there are as many ideas as reporters on what the best solution is. and often is this idea very much influenced by what other applications the reporter has used before
What are the plans (or thoughts and ideas) about how Inkscape should work regarding saving and exporting files in the future? Is there an Inkscape GUI guru (group?) deciding on what the best strategy is? Is there a document describing such a common goal everyone can help work towards?
Well it would be great to have a GUI group to discuss further appearance and functionality of Inkscape ;) at the time all this GUI talk seems to be part of devel list...
There seems to be two works in progress in Svn; a new export dialog that also includes vector formats and a new save a copy dialog. My personal preference goes for extending an existing dialog, but wish to hear whether this is all part of a bigger plan.
From other apps I used, the Export command always worked as a multi format exporter. Not just to one specific format. Current export dialog is great for its detailed settings (but lacks PNG format settings) but it differs from common Save/Open dialogs in gnome. I think that if Inkscape want to follow HID like other gnome apps the export commnad should first show a standard save dialog specifying the file name, extension/format and path. After hitting OK it should display a dialog where user could specify details which are tightly binded to the selected exporting format (eg. export text as curves for PDF, resolution for png and bitmaps generaly, etc) along with specifying document area of export like in current PNG export dialog. Like GIMP does that.
That is an immensely annoying way of doing this.
You are prompted to set the options EVERY TIME. There is no way you will want to change the options absolutely every time, you shouldn't even need to change the options half of the time.
I have seen applicatoins which have an Options button in the Save dialog which allows you to quickly get to the import/export section of preferences and change the settings, without needing to bother you with this information absolutely every time.
About the question of different functionality of Save as and Export.
The big distinction between Save and Export/Save a Copy is the former creates a document under the given name and continues to work on it, whereas the latter saves a copy under a new name (possiby a new format) but goes back to working on the existing document.
Alan Horkan wrote:
From other apps I used, the Export command always worked as a multi format exporter. Not just to one specific format. Current export dialog is great for its detailed settings (but lacks PNG format settings) but it differs from common Save/Open dialogs in gnome. I think that if Inkscape want to follow HID like other gnome apps the export commnad should first show a standard save dialog specifying the file name, extension/format and path. After hitting OK it should display a dialog where user could specify details which are tightly binded to the selected exporting format (eg. export text as curves for PDF, resolution for png and bitmaps generaly, etc) along with specifying document area of export like in current PNG export dialog. Like GIMP does that.
That is an immensely annoying way of doing this.
You are prompted to set the options EVERY TIME. There is no way you will want to change the options absolutely every time, you shouldn't even need to change the options half of the time.
I have seen applicatoins which have an Options button in the Save dialog which allows you to quickly get to the import/export section of preferences and change the settings, without needing to bother you with this information absolutely every time.
Yes I know but I'm not sure this is possible in the GTK Save dialog (I'm not a programmer) because every app based on GTK using the standard dialog is done this way. Look at GIMP. But if it could be done I propose to have a check box instead of a button. Like Corel Draw has it. This way is better also for people who need to always tweak export settings.
About the question of different functionality of Save as and Export.
The big distinction between Save and Export/Save a Copy is the former creates a document under the given name and continues to work on it, whereas the latter saves a copy under a new name (possiby a new format) but goes back to working on the existing document.
That's exactly what I wrote but in a broader manner ;) This is the way people distinguish these commands.
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, graffoo wrote:
of export like in current PNG export dialog. Like GIMP does that.
That is an immensely annoying way of doing this.
You are prompted to set the options EVERY TIME. There is no way you will want to change the options absolutely every time, you shouldn't even need to change the options half of the time.
I have seen applicatoins which have an Options button in the Save dialog which allows you to quickly get to the import/export section of preferences and change the settings, without needing to bother you with this information absolutely every time.
Yes I know but I'm not sure this is possible in the GTK Save dialog (I'm not a programmer) because every app based on GTK using the standard
sure it is, the Export dialog is a modified version of the standard dialog, adding a "More" button to show a seperate format specific dialog would be relatively uncomplicated.
is done this way. Look at GIMP. But if it could be done I propose to have a check box instead of a button. Like Corel Draw has it. This way is better also for people who need to always tweak export settings.
People don't normally expect a check box to cause a whole new window to pop-up or take them to a preferenes dialog.
Alan Horkan wrote:
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, graffoo wrote:
of export like in current PNG export dialog. Like GIMP does that.
That is an immensely annoying way of doing this.
You are prompted to set the options EVERY TIME. There is no way you will want to change the options absolutely every time, you shouldn't even need to change the options half of the time.
I have seen applicatoins which have an Options button in the Save dialog which allows you to quickly get to the import/export section of preferences and change the settings, without needing to bother you with this information absolutely every time.
Yes I know but I'm not sure this is possible in the GTK Save dialog (I'm not a programmer) because every app based on GTK using the standard
sure it is, the Export dialog is a modified version of the standard dialog, adding a "More" button to show a seperate format specific dialog would be relatively uncomplicated.
Yes, this seems to be the best way ;)
is done this way. Look at GIMP. But if it could be done I propose to have a check box instead of a button. Like Corel Draw has it. This way is better also for people who need to always tweak export settings.
People don't normally expect a check box to cause a whole new window to pop-up or take them to a preferenes dialog.
Well in Corel Draw the checkbox doesn't take you immediately to settings. It looks like this:
[] Show advanced settings dialog after hitting OK
and this status is saved between sessions. So people who don't need to see settings are never bothered and those who need to tweak them are one click closer to them ;)
On Fri, 25 Aug 2006, graffoo wrote:
Alan Horkan wrote:
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, graffoo wrote:
of export like in current PNG export dialog. Like GIMP does that.
That is an immensely annoying way of doing this.
You are prompted to set the options EVERY TIME. There is no way you will want to change the options absolutely every time, you shouldn't even need to change the options half of the time.
I have seen applicatoins which have an Options button in the Save dialog which allows you to quickly get to the import/export section of preferences and change the settings, without needing to bother you with this information absolutely every time.
Yes I know but I'm not sure this is possible in the GTK Save dialog (I'm not a programmer) because every app based on GTK using the standard
sure it is, the Export dialog is a modified version of the standard dialog, adding a "More" button to show a seperate format specific dialog would be relatively uncomplicated.
Yes, this seems to be the best way ;)
is done this way. Look at GIMP. But if it could be done I propose to have a check box instead of a button. Like Corel Draw has it. This way is better also for people who need to always tweak export settings.
People don't normally expect a check box to cause a whole new window to pop-up or take them to a preferenes dialog.
Well in Corel Draw the checkbox doesn't take you immediately to settings. It looks like this:
[] Show advanced settings dialog after hitting OK
and this status is saved between sessions. So people who don't need to see settings are never bothered and those who need to tweak them are one click closer to them ;)
That is interesting and I'm really glad we discussed this. When Inkscape gets these extra options I hope they can benefit from these ideas and give advanced users all the extras they need without burdening ordinary users.
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Ulf Erikson wrote:
There are several bug reports and feature requests that show how people find the current Save and Save As combination to be cumbersome to work with, but.. reading feature requests such as #1520237, #1085718, #1282332, #1377887, #1388131 and #1511930 it is clear that there are as many ideas as reporters on what the best solution is. and often is this idea very much influenced by what other applications the reporter has used before
What are the plans (or thoughts and ideas) about how Inkscape should work regarding saving and exporting files in the future? Is there an Inkscape GUI guru (group?) deciding on what the best strategy is? Is there a document describing such a common goal everyone can help work towards?
The Gnome HIG considers Export and Save a Copy to be synonymous.
Some applications split lossey and lossless files. In the case of Inkscape this could mean splitting the vector formats from the raster formats or even more drastically splitting SVG from pretty much everything else (possibly PDF). This doesn't strike me as a particularly desirable or well organised approach.
To look at it from the top down it is frankly nuts to have a total of more than 4 or 5 menu items for whatever forms of import and export are implemented, it is just horribly disorganised. I'm similarly worried by how Inkscape has so many different menu items for Paste, 3 in the edit menu and another six in the submenu.
Matters are complicated by users wanting to automate the save process. Part of this desire is due to people using save as a crude form of version management. Another part is users batch processing many files (and not wanting to do it from the command line). Treating batch processing as a seperate task from saving a seperate file seems to me like a better way to do things but the current approach is clearly built up piece by piece on top of a single save system.
There are some things which could help alleviate the problem such as basic document management, which according to the Roadmap is planned soon (actually planned for 0.45): "WebDAV/FTP support via GNOME-VFS, Neon, or the like" http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php?title=Roadmap
There is a request for crash recovery which would also help the users who feel the need to make backup copies every few minutes but I thought we already have something like this. https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1527076&gr...
On 8/23/06, Ulf Erikson <ulferikson@...400...> wrote:
What are the plans (or thoughts and ideas) about how Inkscape should work regarding saving and exporting files in the future? Is there an Inkscape GUI guru (group?) deciding on what the best strategy is? Is there a document describing such a common goal everyone can help work towards?
I think I prefer that only the native formats (SVG, SVGZ, maybe Plain SVG) are in Save/Save As/Save a copy, and the rest is in Export. The reason is that with this setup, we avoid the extremely awkward situation with e.g. an EPS file being "loaded" into Inkscape as well as the "You're about to lose data" warning when you're closing such as file.
I think I prefer that only the native formats (SVG, SVGZ, maybe Plain SVG) are in Save/Save As/Save a copy, and the rest is in Export. The reason is that with this setup, we avoid the extremely awkward situation with e.g. an EPS file being "loaded" into Inkscape as well as the "You're about to lose data" warning when you're closing such as file.
I agree with Bulia, and I'd like to add the folowing (if I may): - Any format that can be reopened and then fully modified in the software that generated it has to be listed under "Save". (these are native formats. For the meanwhile, Inkscape has only SVG, SVGZ, and plain SVG) - Formats that cannot be reopened or imported, (like EPS, PS, PDF, ODG) or that can be imported but with limited possibility of modification (like PNG and other bitmaps) have to be listed under "Export". Also, these formats have to be in the "Import" function, not in Open, for the same reasons. They are not native, but supported.
Another positive aspect of this division to native and not native formats, is that when the user works on a project, he can at any moment export to a supported format (EPS, PNG or whatever...) but Inkscape will not change the title of the opened file. The opened file will stay SVG (or SVGZ, Plain SVG...). If after exporting the artwork the user decides to close his modified file, Inkscape will ask him if he wants to save it in the NATIVE format. No
This is actually the behave of all the professional graphic programs I know (among them Indesign, CorelDraw, etc...)
This is IMHO the best way to make the difference between native and not native formats. In the future, if Inkscape will enlarge its possibilities to work with (for example) PDF and will natively open and save files in this format, PDF should then be listed under "save" and "open" funtions.
Thanks! :)
Molumen
I think I prefer that only the native formats (SVG, SVGZ, maybe Plain SVG) are in Save/Save As/Save a copy, and the rest is in Export. The reason is that with this setup, we avoid the extremely awkward situation with e.g. an EPS file being "loaded" into Inkscape as well as the "You're about to lose data" warning when you're closing such as file.
I agree with Bulia,
Likewise. Anything that couldn't again be opened in Inkscape without loss, I'd expect to see in the "Export" dialog.
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Ulf Erikson wrote:
What are the plans (or thoughts and ideas) about how Inkscape should work regarding saving and exporting files in the future? Is there an Inkscape GUI guru (group?) deciding on what the best strategy is? Is there a document describing such a common goal everyone can help work towards?
We've discussed it several times on this list... I think at this point, who ever codes it first will have their idea win :)
--Ted
participants (7)
-
Alan Horkan -
bulia byak -
graffoo -
Michael Moore -
momo -
Ted Gould -
Ulf Erikson