On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 00:55 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On 2/5/10, bulia byak wrote:

...

Selector tool has a new mouse cursor (arrow with an open hand) for when your mouse is over a selectable object, and another (arrow with clinched hand) for when you're dragging an object. This improves precision of selection and UI consistency (previously, the mouse cursor over a selectable object was different across platforms, e.g. hand icon on Linux or four-way arrow on Windows).

Speaking of which, is it possible to have GIMP-like mouse cursors in Inkscape? That is, full greyscale + alpha channel.

Someone had submitted a patch for it years ago and they weren't showing up for bulia in Win2000 if I recall correctly, so they were backed out.

Cheers, Josh

On Fri, 2010-02-05 at 20:06 -0400, bulia byak wrote:

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Joshua A. Andler <scislac@...400...> wrote:

...

Someone had submitted a patch for it years ago and they weren't showing up for bulia in Win2000 if I recall correctly, so they were backed out.

Not just not showed up - they caused crashes.

Do recall if you had done a backtrace at that time? I'm curious if it was the code or potentially a library issue.

Cheers, Josh

Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On 2/6/10, Joshua A. Andler wrote:

...

...

...

Selector tool has a new mouse cursor (arrow with an open hand) for when your mouse is over a selectable object, and another (arrow with clinched hand) for when you're dragging an object. This improves precision of selection and UI consistency (previously, the mouse cursor over a selectable object was different across platforms, e.g. hand icon on Linux or four-way arrow on Windows).

Speaking of which, is it possible to have GIMP-like mouse cursors in Inkscape? That is, full greyscale + alpha channel.

Someone had submitted a patch for it years ago and they weren't showing up for bulia in Win2000 if I recall correctly, so they were backed out.

To tell the truth, I was somewhat averse to using colored mouse cursors back then and I still am averse to it now :) Crashes -- now that's a different thing :)

Alexandre

I don't think "full greyscale + alpha channel" means colored :)

JF

On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 13:55 -0500, Joshua Facemyer wrote:

Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

...

To tell the truth, I was somewhat averse to using colored mouse cursors back then and I still am averse to it now :) Crashes -- now that's a different thing :)

I don't think "full greyscale + alpha channel" means colored :)

No one did... The patch I was referring to had color cursors with it. However, it had the ability to just use grayscale + alpha as well.

Cheers, Josh

On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 12:07 PM, ~suv <suv-sf@...58...> wrote:

• It does not provide more precision than the previous one (I see no

difference e.g. for bug #515997) but at the same time obscures more details of the drawing as well as some of the (pre-)snapping hints (I always use snapping and set it to snap the node closest to the pointer).

Previously OSX used a four-way arrow, like Windows. I do not understand how the new arrow cursor, with clearly visible single-pixel tip, is not a precision improvement over this :) The four-way arrow and hand were terrible with regard to precision, not to mention their inconsistency across platforms. Now you can actually see the point that you're clicking, it's not obscured by the cursor anymore.

• The additional offset hand distracts me from the actual target ;)

I think that just needs some getting used to.

• I'm repeatedly confused while editing which of the two equally-shaded

(i.e. outline only) shapes - the arrow or the hand - is actually aiming the target.

Yet this is consistent with most other Inkscape custom cursors, which typically also have two parts: a pointer (usually a cross) and an icon. The only difference is that here, the pointer is an arrow, not a cross. But this is justified by the fact that it is a second cursor in a tool, whose first cursor is also an arrow, so we're improving consistency here.

Unfortunately that default arrow is not Inkscape-custom, it is the system arrow cursor and so is different across platforms and cursor themes. I made the mouseover/drag arrow as close as possible to the default Windows arrow, which I suspect is our largest user base. It is also fairly similar to the default Ubuntu cursor. It works worse, admittedly, on OSX where the default arrow is black, not white. But I think that even there, it is at least not worse than the old one which wasn't even an arrow at all.

This might be due to being used to other (native) applications on Mac OS X which have the (clinched) hand symbol without arrow when panning and the arrow without hand when dragging an element with the mouse.

We might indeed use hand-only cursor for panning canvas. But not for object dragging and mouseovering - this is a different situation altogether. It has been Inkscape's big usability advantage that it shows you at once, by changing cursor, that you're over a selectable object. I just made this feature more consistent and precise.

1. I don't use vector applications like Illustrator or CorelDraw - my

comparsion with other osx applications is limited. 2) GIMP 2.6.8 on OS X uses the same (linux?) type of cursors (arrow + symbol), but the arrow it clearly emphasized as pointer, and IMHO GIMP's cursor for the move tool is better suited than the clinched hand now used in Inkscape (which to me denotes panning not dragging).

I'm not sure what is meant by "arrow emphasized as pointer" - if it's an arrow it's pointer enough, no? :)

As for hand, I think it works fine, but please feel free to suggest another icon. What pair of icons would be easy to recognize _and_ be related _and_ clearly denote the "something can be selected here" and "you're dragging the selection" ideas?

Thank you for taking the time to answer to my initial reactions after working with the new cursor for only a short peroid of time!

On 8/2/10 00:31, bulia byak wrote:

On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 12:07 PM, ~suv <suv-sf@...58...> wrote:

...

• The additional offset hand distracts me from the actual target ;)

I think that just needs some getting used to.

Yes, I know and I will ;)

Most often I adapt easily to existing limitations or new changes - however it seems as if I picked the wrong topic to speak up about some of my doubts... ?

...

• I'm repeatedly confused while editing which of the two equally-shaded

(i.e. outline only) shapes - the arrow or the hand - is actually aiming the target.

Yet this is consistent with most other Inkscape custom cursors, which typically also have two parts: a pointer (usually a cross) and an icon. The only difference is that here, the pointer is an arrow, not a cross. But this is justified by the fact that it is a second cursor in a tool, whose first cursor is also an arrow, so we're improving consistency here.

Unfortunately that default arrow is not Inkscape-custom, it is the system arrow cursor and so is different across platforms and cursor themes. I made the mouseover/drag arrow as close as possible to the default Windows arrow, which I suspect is our largest user base. It is also fairly similar to the default Ubuntu cursor. It works worse, admittedly, on OSX where the default arrow is black, not white. But I think that even there, it is at least not worse than the old one which wasn't even an arrow at all.

This seems to be the main reason for my initial irritation after noticing the new cursor for the select tool: The new white arrow is way bigger than the black system arrow used on Mac OS X when not hovering a selectable object. This makes switching to the custom cursor visually awkward (as if the cursor jumps - it doesn't, I know ;-) and distracting (inverting the color).

...

This might be due to being used to other (native) applications on Mac OS X which have the (clinched) hand symbol without arrow when panning and the arrow without hand when dragging an element with the mouse.

We might indeed use hand-only cursor for panning canvas. But not for object dragging and mouseovering - this is a different situation altogether. It has been Inkscape's big usability advantage that it shows you at once, by changing cursor, that you're over a selectable object. I just made this feature more consistent and precise.

GIMP 2.6.8 on OS X uses the four-way arrow as symbol with the arrow cursor for the move tool - personally I think I'd prefer this for Inkscape's select tool as well. It would make the transition to the new custom cursor easier for Mac OS X users (re-using the previous cursor as symbol for the new arrow cursor) and reserve the hand tool for a new panning tool/custom cursor.

...

1. I don't use vector applications like Illustrator or CorelDraw - my

comparsion with other osx applications is limited. 2) GIMP 2.6.8 on OS X uses the same (linux?) type of cursors (arrow + symbol), but the arrow it clearly emphasized as pointer, and IMHO GIMP's cursor for the move tool is better suited than the clinched hand now used in Inkscape (which to me denotes panning not dragging).

I'm not sure what is meant by "arrow emphasized as pointer" - if it's an arrow it's pointer enough, no? :)

Not knowing a lot about the techniques used to display cursors I think this could be due to what Alexandre asked for - 'full greyscale + alpha channel'?

Gimp's cursors appear different to me as in: - the arrow is bigger in relation to its accompanying symbol - the arrow is lighter, the symbol seems to be rendered slightly darker

As for hand, I think it works fine, but please feel free to suggest another icon. What pair of icons would be easy to recognize _and_ be related _and_ clearly denote the "something can be selected here" and "you're dragging the selection" ideas?

see above: I'd prefer to keep the previous four-way arrow as accompanying symbol for the two-part custom cursor of the select tool. Could the state of "you're dragging the selection" be indicated e.g. by always showing the rotation center of the object while dragging instead of changing the custom cursor?

~suv