google deprecating SMIL for Chrome
Hi Friends, Someone brought to my attention, the other day, this entry in Tavmjong's blog: http://tavmjong.free.fr/blog/?p=1262, which discusses Google's Intent to Deprecate SMIL in the Chrome browser, and links to that discussion: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/?_escaped_fragment_=topic/bli... Since I've been learning a lot more about animation (while writing a new Animation page for the website) it really seems rather shocking. From what I understand (although still learning, *Always*) it seems like SMIL comes the closest to being "true" SVG animation (of all the existing ways to animate SVG). The Intent to Deprecate message says that MS will be creating CSS animation support for SVG, which will make animation of SVG possible in all browsers. I don't have the technical knowledge to be able to compare SMIL to this new CSS animation (and since it says "just announced" maybe it doesn't actually exist yet). (I am aware of current CSS3 animation, but not about this new bit.) But I'm definitely curious about what will be lost of SMIL, which that new CSS can't replicate, or conversely, if this new CSS will have any new abilities that SMIL doesn't have. And I'm curious what our Inkscape community thinks about this apparently pending deprecation in Chrome? (Because I guess Mozilla/Firefox will follow suit, since IE already stopped supporting it, some versions back. And that makes it seem like a sad day for animation with Inkscape.) I understand that the hopes from several years ago, to have a working SVG animation tool by the release of Inkscape 1.0, have now gone by the wayside (I guess for lack of anyone interested enough to do it). But I wonder, if Inkscape had even an experimental SVG animation model, based on SMIL (along with a new UI which probably would be needed, afaiu) if Google would still want to deprecate SMIL? I do see some comments in the Intent to Deprecate discussion, from Inkscape-related people, or organizations, but I'm surprised not to see any discussion here in this list. Is it just because of not having anyone (or small group) interested in developing animation for Inkscape? Or maybe there was some discussion on IRC, where I don't usually watch. It just seems a little hopeless to me, not to see a vigorous uproar about it, or even any comments from Inkscape developers on the google discussion. I must be still missing something in my understanding of animation and Inkscape. Maybe it's much more hopeless than I realize, no matter what google does with Chrome? What do you all think about google deprecating SMIL?
Thanks, brynn
On Sat, 2015-05-30 at 12:16 -0600, Brynn wrote:
Hi Friends, Someone brought to my attention, the other day, this entry in Tavmjong's blog: http://tavmjong.free.fr/blog/?p=1262, which discusses Google's Intent to Deprecate SMIL in the Chrome browser, and links to that discussion: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/?_escaped_fragment_=topic/bli... Since I've been learning a lot more about animation (while writing a new Animation page for the website) it really seems rather shocking. From what I understand (although still learning, *Always*) it seems like SMIL comes the closest to being "true" SVG animation (of all the existing ways to animate SVG).
I was rather shocked too. SMIL does seem to fit in SVG rather nicely.
The Intent to Deprecate message says that MS will be creating CSSanimation support for SVG, which will make animation of SVG possible in all browsers. I don't have the technical knowledge to be able to compare SMIL to this new CSS animation (and since it says "just announced" maybe it doesn't actually exist yet). (I am aware of current CSS3 animation, but not about this new bit.)
Web animations is still a spec under development. It's goal is (was) to provide a common animation model for both CSS animations and SMIL animations.
But I'm definitely curious about what will be lost of SMIL, whichthat new CSS can't replicate, or conversely, if this new CSS will have any new abilities that SMIL doesn't have. And I'm curious what our Inkscape community thinks about this apparently pending deprecation in Chrome? (Because I guess Mozilla/Firefox will follow suit, since IE already stopped supporting it, some versions back. And that makes it seem like a sad day for animation with Inkscape.)
SMIL is somewhat simpler to write. SMIL can animate attributes as well as properties. The biggest loss, in my mind, is the ability to animate paths.
IE never supported it... that is why it never caught on on big websites. There was hope that with the common animation model that IE would eventually come around (or provide a native JavaScript implementation).
I understand that the hopes from several years ago, to have aworking SVG animation tool by the release of Inkscape 1.0, have now gone by the wayside (I guess for lack of anyone interested enough to do it). But I wonder, if Inkscape had even an experimental SVG animation model, based on SMIL (along with a new UI which probably would be needed, afaiu) if Google would still want to deprecate SMIL?
Inkscape has never even had an experimental animation model. Creating an animation editor is much more complex that just rendering an animation.
I do see some comments in the Intent to Deprecate discussion, fromInkscape-related people, or organizations, but I'm surprised not to see any discussion here in this list. Is it just because of not having anyone (or small group) interested in developing animation for Inkscape? Or maybe there was some discussion on IRC, where I don't usually watch. It just seems a little hopeless to me, not to see a vigorous uproar about it, or even any comments from Inkscape developers on the google discussion. I must be still missing something in my understanding of animation and Inkscape. Maybe it's much more hopeless than I realize, no matter what google does with Chrome?
There has always been interest in animation editing in Inkscape but there has never been a developer who has had enough interest, skill, and time to do it.
What do you all think about google deprecating SMIL?
Personally not happy at all.
Anybody who is interested in SMIL should read Chrome's page and comment on it. Their position would be stronger if they actually use SMIL (and not just on a demo or how-to page which will be greatly discounted).
Tav
Thanks for your comments Tav. You said:
IE never supported it... that is why it never caught on on big websites.
But in my research, I found this
http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/SVGAnimations.htm#SMIL
(and whole bunch of stuff from David Dailey - http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/)
which seems to indicate it did, at least when all those pages were written.
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Tavmjong Bah" <tavmjong@...8...> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 8:25 AM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...> Cc: "Inkscape-Devel" Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] google deprecating SMIL for Chrome
On Sat, 2015-05-30 at 12:16 -0600, Brynn wrote:
Hi Friends, Someone brought to my attention, the other day, this entry in Tavmjong's blog: http://tavmjong.free.fr/blog/?p=1262, which discusses Google's Intent to Deprecate SMIL in the Chrome browser, and links to that discussion: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/?_escaped_fragment_=topic/bli... Since I've been learning a lot more about animation (while writing a new Animation page for the website) it really seems rather shocking. From what I understand (although still learning, *Always*) it seems like SMIL comes the closest to being "true" SVG animation (of all the existing ways to animate SVG).
I was rather shocked too. SMIL does seem to fit in SVG rather nicely.
The Intent to Deprecate message says that MS will be creating CSSanimation support for SVG, which will make animation of SVG possible in all browsers. I don't have the technical knowledge to be able to compare SMIL to this new CSS animation (and since it says "just announced" maybe it doesn't actually exist yet). (I am aware of current CSS3 animation, but not about this new bit.)
Web animations is still a spec under development. It's goal is (was) to provide a common animation model for both CSS animations and SMIL animations.
But I'm definitely curious about what will be lost of SMIL, whichthat new CSS can't replicate, or conversely, if this new CSS will have any new abilities that SMIL doesn't have. And I'm curious what our Inkscape community thinks about this apparently pending deprecation in Chrome? (Because I guess Mozilla/Firefox will follow suit, since IE already stopped supporting it, some versions back. And that makes it seem like a sad day for animation with Inkscape.)
SMIL is somewhat simpler to write. SMIL can animate attributes as well as properties. The biggest loss, in my mind, is the ability to animate paths.
IE never supported it... that is why it never caught on on big websites. There was hope that with the common animation model that IE would eventually come around (or provide a native JavaScript implementation).
I understand that the hopes from several years ago, to have aworking SVG animation tool by the release of Inkscape 1.0, have now gone by the wayside (I guess for lack of anyone interested enough to do it). But I wonder, if Inkscape had even an experimental SVG animation model, based on SMIL (along with a new UI which probably would be needed, afaiu) if Google would still want to deprecate SMIL?
Inkscape has never even had an experimental animation model. Creating an animation editor is much more complex that just rendering an animation.
I do see some comments in the Intent to Deprecate discussion,from Inkscape-related people, or organizations, but I'm surprised not to see any discussion here in this list. Is it just because of not having anyone (or small group) interested in developing animation for Inkscape? Or maybe there was some discussion on IRC, where I don't usually watch. It just seems a little hopeless to me, not to see a vigorous uproar about it, or even any comments from Inkscape developers on the google discussion. I must be still missing something in my understanding of animation and Inkscape. Maybe it's much more hopeless than I realize, no matter what google does with Chrome?
There has always been interest in animation editing in Inkscape but there has never been a developer who has had enough interest, skill, and time to do it.
What do you all think about google deprecating SMIL?Personally not happy at all.
Anybody who is interested in SMIL should read Chrome's page and comment on it. Their position would be stronger if they actually use SMIL (and not just on a demo or how-to page which will be greatly discounted).
Tav
On 31 May 2015 at 20:29, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Thanks for your comments Tav. You said:
IE never supported it... that is why it never caught on on big websites.
But in my research, I found this
http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/SVGAnimations.htm#SMIL
No, that says IE/ASV, meaning Internet Explorer with Adobe SVG Viewer. Which is a plugin like the Adbove Flash Plugin and isn't native support.
We tend to say the browser supports something if it doesn't require a plugin to show the content.
Which is why we can say browsers support video /now/ with html5, but not before with flash.
Martin.
There has always been interest in animation editing in Inkscape but there has never been a developer who has had enough interest, skill, and time to do it.
I fall under the interested category. I have wanted to bring animation into Inkscape for many years now. I even wrote an extension
https://github.com/nathanjent/inkscape-animation-extension
The extension allows me to create animations using layers in Inkscape. This is far from ideal as every change I make to the SVG document using the extension framework has to be reloaded into Inkscape when the extension completes. When doing 50+ frames(layers) it really struggles.
Recently, I have given up development of the extension to focus on learning to develop Inkscape directly and hopefully some day help implement the animation features myself. However, like Tav said, I lack both the skills and the time.
It would be sad if support for SMIL in SVG is dropped before I get the chance to animate in Inkscape.
Any advice to take me from "I took a college course on C++ once" to "Inkscape Developer" would be appreciated.
On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:
On 31 May 2015 at 20:29, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Thanks for your comments Tav. You said:
IE never supported it... that is why it never caught on on big websites.
But in my research, I found this
http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/SVGAnimations.htm#SMIL
No, that says IE/ASV, meaning Internet Explorer with Adobe SVG Viewer. Which is a plugin like the Adbove Flash Plugin and isn't native support.
We tend to say the browser supports something if it doesn't require a plugin to show the content.
Which is why we can say browsers support video /now/ with html5, but not before with flash.
Martin.
Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
On 31 May 2015 at 22:18, Nathan Jent <nathanjent@...19...> wrote:
Any advice to take me from "I took a college course on C++ once" to "Inkscape Developer" would be appreciated.
Step 1. Get a build working Step 2. Practice with gdb (get a cheatsheet) Step 3. Break stuff as you change things and then learn lots by fixing them.
(we'll leave steps 4 through 11 of the committing, merge requesting and other pieces for the website developers guide)
Best Regards, Martin Owens
yes, I tried out a few of these files from the site:
http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/SVGAnimations.htm#SMIL
I tried the two files ovaling.svg and grid2.svg. They both worked correctly in IE8 using the Adobe SVG Viewer 3.0, which sadly is no longer supported by Adobe. Neither of these files worked correctly in IE9, which has built-in native support for SVG.
Alvin
-- View this message in context: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/google-deprecating-SMIL-for-Chrome-tp497382... Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Oooohhh, I understand better now. Thanks :-)
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 6:44 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...> Cc: "Inkscape-Devel" Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] google deprecating SMIL for Chrome
On 31 May 2015 at 20:29, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Thanks for your comments Tav. You said:
IE never supported it... that is why it never caught on on big websites.
But in my research, I found this
http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/SVGAnimations.htm#SMIL
No, that says IE/ASV, meaning Internet Explorer with Adobe SVG Viewer. Which is a plugin like the Adbove Flash Plugin and isn't native support.
We tend to say the browser supports something if it doesn't require a plugin to show the content.
Which is why we can say browsers support video /now/ with html5, but not before with flash.
Martin.
On 31 May 2015 at 16:25, Tavmjong Bah <tavmjong@...8...> wrote:
I understand that the hopes from several years ago, to have aworking SVG animation tool by the release of Inkscape 1.0, have now gone by the wayside (I guess for lack of anyone interested enough to do it). But I wonder, if Inkscape had even an experimental SVG animation model, based on SMIL (along with a new UI which probably would be needed, afaiu) if Google would still want to deprecate SMIL?
Inkscape has never even had an experimental animation model. Creating an animation editor is much more complex that just rendering an animation.
If Inkscape never even had an experimental implementation for it, the loss of SMIL would be relatively small from a development perspective. The tooling would just need to focus on CSS and/or Web animations instead. For Inkscape users this probably doesn't make any or a very small difference. The UI should hide the technical implementation.
But I'm definitely curious about what will be lost of SMIL, whichthat new CSS can't replicate, or conversely, if this new CSS will have any new abilities that SMIL doesn't have. And I'm curious what our Inkscape community thinks about this apparently pending deprecation in Chrome? (Because I guess Mozilla/Firefox will follow suit, since IE already stopped supporting it, some versions back. And that makes it seem like a sad day for animation with Inkscape.)
SMIL is somewhat simpler to write. SMIL can animate attributes as well as properties. The biggest loss, in my mind, is the ability to animate paths.
Features like path animations will (need to) be brought up as feature for the other specifications then. As I saw there were already some people complaining about that within the Google thread.
Sebastian
participants (6)
-
alvinpenner -
Brynn -
Martin Owens -
Nathan Jent -
Sebastian Zartner -
Tavmjong Bah