I agree with Eduard. If you plan to support Windows, support Windows. Otherwise, why bother with all those ifdefs in the source? :)

Right now Inkscape works well and people are providing support to get it running on Windows.

Anyway, what in your opinion Martin is wrong with the way Windows is supported currently?

Partha

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Eduard Braun <Eduard.Braun2@...173...> wrote:

In my opinion this would be the wrong solution to a very real problem...

Reality is that Windows is probably the OS used by the largest fraction of the Inkscape userbase. At the same time it is not the OS with the best support (probably far from it) as you noted.

I dislike the idea that as a result we start telling people to choose Ubuntu because they'll probably have less problems. Instead we should aim at improving support for Windows, so that Inkscape is actually usable equally well on all supported operating systems! To be honest this whole idea sounds a bit like the disclaimer that was very popular on webpages ("Optimized for a resolution of X times Y pixels") which was just a lame way of telling people that the website was badly designed to start with. I don't think that we want that for Inkscape...

Best regards, Eduard Braun

Am 11.05.2016 um 18:20 schrieb Martin Owens:

I'm mentioning this in inkscape since it's an interesting idea executed by a company rather than a free software project: http://store.steampowered.com/about/

Take a look at the bottom, where it says: "Ubuntu is our favorite version of Linux. Interested in giving it a whirl? You can install and run Ubuntu from a Live CD or USB stick, or install it to run alongside Windows.

Grab an Ubuntu installer from Canonical and see what it’s all about."

That's really interesting from our perspective, because our website never recommends using a free software desktop, or linking to ubuntu's website.

Are we too cautious about recommending something like Ubuntu along side using Inkscape? Should we say that linux is the platform with the most support and Ubuntu is probably the one you should try first. Or are we happy with the no-opinion presentation we have currently? Is it false balance to present ourselves as if all desktops are equal to us?

Anyway, I'm just mulling this over.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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I'm going to both agree and disagree with everyone here. ;)

In seriousness, I don't think it's a bad idea to mention we like Ubuntu as a project as long as we are very clear about why (as designers who use Inkscape), we like Ubuntu best.

Reasons (as a designer) I love Ubuntu are these:

1. Corporation-backed distro has more money to throw at improvements, so investment in Ubuntu is assured for the long term 2. Ease of install, and excellent driver support for most machines. 3. Lots of flavours of Linux are based off it, so you have a choice of pre-built environments. 4. It's free, and has ppas, which make testing Inkscape-trunk a true walk in the park, so I can have all the new features of Inkscape to test and play with in production without the hassle of trying to compile it myself. Also, reverting to stable release is a one-command affair, so it's never a worry that I'll have an unusable ver of Inkscape, even if something experimental goes pear-shaped. 5. It makes older machines run like brand new machines, so it saves me both time, money and supports re-use and recycling of things that would just be sitting in a landfill. 6. Can be used completely on a USB key, so you can use public computers to do your work, with your own OS and Inkscape on your keychain. 7. Ubuntu is very light-weight and installs in under 45 minutes in most cases, so even if my computer dies, I can be up and running again in less than an hour on a new machine, or possibly less than 5 minutes if I have a USB key and enough RAM. 8. Active, helpful community of people who care about eachother and are eager to help, with lots of forum websites dedicated to enhancing the Ubuntu experience. 9. Gnome shell. <- Big one.

Maybe we should do a video to show the advantages.

My thoughts. -C

If we are going to recommend any distro, It's got to be absolutely pain free to install. Ubuntu is much easier to install than Windows, so it gets my vote.

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...

wrote:

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 12:20:32PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:

...

I'm mentioning this in inkscape since it's an interesting idea executed by a company rather than a free software project:

http://store.steampowered.com/about/

Take a look at the bottom, where it says: "Ubuntu is our favorite version of Linux. Interested in giving it a whirl? You can install and run Ubuntu from a Live CD or USB stick, or install it to run alongside Windows.

Grab an Ubuntu installer from Canonical and see what it’s all about."

That's really interesting from our perspective, because our website never recommends using a free software desktop, or linking to ubuntu's website.

Are we too cautious about recommending something like Ubuntu along side using Inkscape? Should we say that linux is the platform with the most support and Ubuntu is probably the one you should try first. Or are we happy with the no-opinion presentation we have currently? Is it false balance to present ourselves as if all desktops are equal to us?

Anyway, I'm just mulling this over.

Eduard makes some good points, although I wouldn't be opposed to us evangelizing Linux more strongly on the website. I don't think we should recommend a particular flavor of Linux, though.

Bryce

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C R wrote

...

Ubuntu is much easier to install than Windows,

I disagree. And I disagree because I've installed Ubuntu (and other distros)

many times on my PCs in the last couple of decades and I've always had problems with this or that hardware so I had to trim every installation by hand (sometimes by simply editing a text file).

That's true for Ubuntu from the last decade, but I've never (not even once) gotten Windows to (re)install without having to then driver hunt all over the internet to get things working. With Ubuntu, the last 6 machines I've converted (after viruses ate Windows on laptops and desktops of friends, family and neighbors) Ubuntu came pre-loaded with most of the drivers, and found the rest during install (another thing Windows installer does not do is download updates during the first install, causing my last re-install of Windows 8 to take SEVEN hours, with no less than 5 restarts). No configuration file editing needed. That's the essence of WHY I recommend Ubuntu. In short, it's probably time to try to install Ubuntu from THIS decade. ;)

Of course trimming an OS is a lot of fun (for all that like this sort of

things, and I do), but honestly you can't say it's easier for the average user.

No trimming necessary. Seriously, try it again. It's a completely different experience.

Unless you refer to the installation process itself, where you just

insert a DVD and wait but that's true for both so saying that it's "much easier" for Ubuntu is still wrong (I don't find it easier to insert Ubuntu DVDs into my reader :).

It's much easier for a lot of reasons. I personally use a USB disk, so if you don't want to get your hands on a live CD, that's an option too. Most people buy a new computer when something goes wrong with it rather than re-installing it. This is why I've had so much success with giving Ubuntu to friends and family. I show them the process, and they are amazed at how easy (and liberating) it is. Especially if you've lost the install disk for your specific model of computer (which nearly everyone does over the years). Your option is generally to buy a new windows install disk for hundreds of dollars/pounds/etc.

Personally I think that having a Free Software project mentioning other

relevant Free Software projects to open people's eyes on the fact that (if they want to) they _could_ use a complete Free Software based system, OS included, is a good thing.

Agree here.

Just pay attention on how it's presented because it can easily degenerate into a "Linux is better than Windows. No, it isn't! Yes it is!!!"

I also agree with this. We don't need to mention Windows at all to show people the benefits of Ubuntu.

discussion. And it won't be fair with the big freedom that, thanks to _all_

developers, Inkscape's users have in taking advantage of the same excellent software in whatever OS they prefer.

There are definite benefits to using Ubuntu over OSX and Windows. These are not things we can change either, as we have no control over proprietary OSs.

-C

View this message in context:

http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Recommending-an-OS-tp4976691p4976700.html Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Please, let's stop it here.

Sure. That's fine with me.

C R wrote

...

In short, it's probably time to try to install Ubuntu from THIS decade.

;)

My last experience is dated about a couple of months ago. Last Ubuntu I tried was 15.10.

Oh, you want to continue after all? Fine. ;) Good for you for continuing to try. Now try to reinstall Windows on that same system without the original disk image at hand. Yep, Ubuntu is looking easier all the time... ;)

C R wrote

...

It's much easier for a lot of reasons. I personally use a USB disk...

Me too, also for Windows.

Which you can then install on your friend's computer? If you are, I doubt it's legally... I mean, it's great if you can install and run Windows off a USB drive now. Can't do it free though.

Trust me: I really know what I'm talking about. And I know that a lot of

people don't have my (and probably your) knowledge so they can't resolve alone all the problems they step into. That's what I'm usually called for... :)

Fine. The fact remains, we have had very different experiences. I'm sorry you're having so many problems with Ubuntu vs. Windows, but there is no reason for me to "trust" your experiences over my own (also very recent) experiences. :)

This is not an argument about me or you, though this is about whether the Inkscape project should do our part to get folks onto an OS that they might like better and does actually provide a superior experience for using programs like Inkscape.

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...

Are we too cautious about recommending something like Ubuntu along side using Inkscape? Should we say that linux is the platform with the most support and Ubuntu is probably the one you should try first.

A very simple question: what existing issue would it solve?

More users able to test new features in trunk for starters... OSX users being able to have a modern inkscape UI free of xquartz for another.

The question may be irrelevant because people will probably not try a whole new OS just to use Inkscape. It's got to be more than that. We need to present Ubuntu as an ideal OS for digital artists. If we can make that case, we have a shot at it.

-C

Alex

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What's the connection between Ubuntu and testing?

ppa which allows one to install either trunk or stable with a single command.

You could start building AppImage files and get *any* Linux user with a fairly recent system to test new features.

Oh definitely. You volunteering for that? ;)

OSX users being able to have a modern inkscape UI free of xquartz for

...

another.

And OS X is relevant to recommending Ubuntu how, exactly?

Because the Inkscape experience is not great under xQuartz? My girlfriend runs OSX and asked me if there's a way to install Ubuntu on her machine to use Inkscape, so I may have another conversion to do soon. :P

...

It's got to be more than that. We need to present Ubuntu as an ideal OS

for

...

digital artists.

'We' as in who? Where did this 'we' come from?

"We" as in we who are interested in making public statements about Ubuntu in relation to the Inkscape project. "We" as in we who may decide to if "we" can reach a common ground on the issue. "We" as in we who will then take action to produce graphics and videos etc. to then do the work that needs to be done (or not) based on the community decision. "We" as in the "we" in all community developed, used, and supported software.

-C

Alex

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Thinking about what I've seen in the forums, on IRC channel, etc. I'm going to vote against this idea for the time being... Not because I think it's not a good idea, or that it's not the right thing to do, but because distros & or OS choice is like religion to people who care obout such things. To suggest one distro over all others is probably going to wind up being divisive within the Inkscape community and the project as well.

In summary: People will take it personally.

There is also lot of controversy surrounding Ubuntu as a Linux distro, and their dedication to user freedom, vs corporate goals.

However, Doc, I think we ("we", as in you and I) can do plenty to spread the word about Ubuntu as a creative platform, as well as other good/easy to install and use distros, outside the Inkscape project, which would possibly have as much or more sway than a fleeting mention on our website.

It would be cool to approach it from the other direction: Using Ubuntu's popularity as a means of promoting Inkscape, which I doubt would be objectionable to most people in the project.

My 2p -C

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:

On Thu, 2016-05-12 at 13:46 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

...

A very simple question: what existing issue would it solve?

Thanks Alex, good question.

It would communicate an opinion to our users. If Inkscape is interested in Free Software as an ecosystem, or industry, or Open Source as a method or working; then we can recommend other Free Software or Open Source things when we depend on them, for examine operating system.

If we have no opinion, we can communicate that too via abstaining.

Of course this somewhat gets into why any particular developer is involved, and I understand Free Software itself is not always or even mostly the reason. And so you'll see a bit of technical rhetoric being thrown out here, but I don't believe Inkscape working well on Ubuntu is really the best argument for why a project might have an opinion to share.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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