Hi all,
I've been reading the side-discussion about the current state of the Inkscape website and figured I should speak up.
from Alexandre Prokoudine in the 'Free Desktop Release' thread:
In fact, our custom website CMS is rather unmaintained. Several people volunteered to create a new website based on drupal or possibly something else, and we never heard back from them.
This was me and my colleague Young Hahn. We work for Development Seed, a small web shop in Washington, DC, with a focus on using & contributing to open-source projects. Young and I are both designers who rely on Inkscape for the majority of our graphics work. You can see the kinds of things Inkscape is helping us do at http://developmentseed.org/projects
Earlier in the year we chatted with Josh Andler about how the current website works and what a Drupal redesign/migration might look like. We suggested Drupal since that is what we specialize in - Young, in addition to being a kick-ass designer, is also a highly respected and experienced Drupal developer.
Since our initial chat with Josh we've been letting other projects distract us. However, recently I've been speaking to Young and our CEO, Eric Gundersen, about scheduling some real time for this and, if the community is willing, we'd love to get started soon.
One important aspect of the site that we think needs work is the information architecture. We propose reducing the main navigation menu to:
- News - Download - Documentation - Resources - Gallery - Community - Development
I would like to open a discussion about people's thoughts on this, and perhaps get into some specifics regarding what pages/sections would need to be consolidated, rethought, or perhaps eliminated in order to do this.
I have some ideas regarding a new visual design as well, but think that can wait until these more fundemental decisions are made.
Thanks!
AJ Ashton
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 8:33 AM, AJ Ashton <aj.ashton@...400...> wrote:
One important aspect of the site that we think needs work is the information architecture. We propose reducing the main navigation menu to:
- News
- Download
- Documentation
- Resources
- Gallery
- Community
- Development
I would like to open a discussion about people's thoughts on this, and perhaps get into some specifics regarding what pages/sections would need to be consolidated, rethought, or perhaps eliminated in order to do this.
Hi AJ and everyone, If it means anything, thank you for thinking about this! :) The website information structure is important, I agree. Using the mentioned structure, I am playing the roles of a visitor here, and I would like to list some of the possible problems... The good sides are many, but i am not listing those here ;).. sorry. So, for example, dropping by the Inkscape website I glance and I ask...
-What would be the difference between the Documentation and the Resources? i.e. If I want to learn how to use that new Inkscape pattern thingy, where should I go? Where do I find the tutorials? Where do I find the function references? Documentation or Resources?
-If I was a developer, where do I find dev docs? In 'Documentation' or 'Development'? i.e. I just dropped by because I need some references for the UI functions. Where could I find it?
-How do 'Community', 'Development' and even 'Gallery' relate to each other? i.e. I would really like to submit and see what people think about this new illustration I made... Now, where do I submit it? Community? Gallery? Or, I'd like to ask the dev-masters what do they think about this little piece of code I made... submit to Community? Development?
These cases might seem silly to someone already familiar with the website, but to the others, the first experiences are incredibly important and usually those first experiences define the decision: I like this place!/I'm lost at this place, I'm outta here!. I believe that more people we manage to make feel comfy, the better.
If you allow me, I think it would be good to rethink this information structure by the roles of the visitors. I'd like to excuse myself in advance for the 'philosophical' approach to this ;). A brief mental sketch for this would be to establish two, *role based, transparent and complementary* information structures. One for the girls and boys who create using Inkscape - the Users, and one for those girls and boys who create the Inkscape itself- the Devs; plus one more area that I will mention later. All of them are intertwined in many places and probably equally represented on the homepage.
First, the User and Dev sides. Those are only role based information structures, meaning that sometimes you feel like a developer (your dev-role) and sometimes like an artist (your artist-role). In either case you will find useful info according to the role and with no effort you can switch between the two. Those two structures are not kept apart, it's more like two sides of a coin ;) ahh... ye olde sayings. In other words, there's no 'border' in between, it's just a matter of information optimization; i.e, they both share the same visual identity, navigation principles, etc. but at any point it is clear to the visitor that a lot of care has put into serving the 'good' information that fits the role.
*-User side:* Purpose: to be honest, besides serving the user-base, it is also showing-off the power and general appeal of Inkscape. ...Here, a visitor can witness how inspiring, useful, sophisticated and purposeful Inkscape can be. And fall in love with it! /News (Inkscape sightings, achievements, release announcements, cool art/artist features...) /Tutorials and user documentation. /Stable Inkscape downloads & additional resources (templates, palettes, art, plugins ...) /Gallery of excellent finished works, etc. ...
*-Dev side: *Purpose: A library, map-room and a reading room of the Inkscape development. Or, 'the war room' perhaps? ;) ...Here, a visitor can witness how open, diligent, skilled, tidy and cool Inkscape development is. And dive into it! /Development Resources (Everything you need to develop Inkscape is here, Guides, Dev-documentation, Dev Tools...) /Milestones and roadmaps /Dev Inkscape downloads (e.g. Nightly/unstable builds) ...
The third 'area' due to the lack of a better name, I will call 'the playground'. The Playground is meant to be an 'in between' area. An area of dynamic discussion, shared idea creation and test rides. Some users would like to contribute but cannot code, or some developers are interested in how the users are using some newly implemented function, or have an idea for a new one? The Playground is the place. For example, those users that want to try a new funky function that's still under the development, here they can download a build good enough for the testing, with some brief description. They can also submit their opinions and suggestions. When a development effort needs some reference or guidance, here we can put UI surveys, brainstorm sessions, etc. Basically, this is the place for Devs and Users to learn form each other's magic.
*Playground:* Purpose: To initiate and support the symbiosis of all those involved with Inkscape. ...Here, a visitor can witness and experience the integrity and common sense approach to evolving Inkscape. /Cutting edge stuff to try and 'demand'! ;) (builds with experimental functionality, UIs, abilities...) /Analytics (shoutbox, surveys, analyses, etc.) /Community (forum for both Users and developers) ...
OK, this is already getting too long for the first post. So, I believe that the good side of this kind of approach to information structure is that it will provide two focused environments where both creative roles of our character can shine, Master-user and a Master-developer, without the risk of stepping on each other's toes. Still with no effort a person can switch between. I will stop here... promise! ;)
Cheers,
Alex
Hi AJ,
Earlier in the year we chatted with Josh Andler about how the current website works and what a Drupal redesign/migration might look like. We suggested Drupal since that is what we specialize in
... if the community is willing, we'd love to get started soon.
That's great news! I am a mere newcomer to this mailing list (but a longtime basic user of inkscape) - thanks very much for the offer of time and work. After carefully reading through Aleksander's post (which was a great read, and I want to read more from him..) I have been thoroughly convinced that the current website is a confusing jumble of links with little organisation, so your offer to redo things should/could improve both the website exp'erience and enhance the look and appeal of inkscape as a project.
I particularly like the separation of roles: User and Dev - no comments there, I agree with all of that, and I think the separation would be a big improvement. I'm not too sure about the playground area though, there is kind of a grey area but I think there is too much overlap between the three areas (user, dev, playgroud) to try and mark each thing clearly.
e.g.: Where do nightly builds go? they could go in any of the three areas, but strictly and according to the reasons behind the separation, nightly builds should go in playground, but I think it's actually more important to keep downloads together for ease of access.
Thanks again! Craig
Hi Craig, Thanks for dropping in! I am fresh in this, too ;)... and sorry if I was not exact. Let me try to fix that. It is mostly a sketch, and any idea or critique you have would be great! Critiques are a great boost for creativity.
One thing I did not mention before, but I feel is very important. The User area focuses to communicate the image 'Inkscape is a powerful tool for graphics'. Therefore, in the User area we can see impressive artworks, tutorials, etc. More importantly, it shows Inkscape as a 'reliable tool', offering only those downloads that are ready for your or your company's workflow and allow your creativity take over from there. No frills. That means: only the latest stable release, only well laid out and documented palettes, well made templates, etc. that you can download without wondering which version you should get. For someone who is facing Inkscape for the first time, or someone not inclined to face the test versions, this would be the place to go. It is only a prominent link to the stable release, but certainly, a visitor should have a link to the Dev download zone for nightly builds, too.
...
About the nightlies... You are right, the nightly builds seem to fit both the Playground and Dev area. So, that page (nightly builds etc.) probably should be included in both areas. Dev & Playground.
...
About the Playground (still not sure about the title, if you have a suggestion...) It is good that it overlaps, to be somewhat 'gray' area, I think. :) Based on my experience, the following is often the case (formulated for Inkscape). There are always people that are purely into graphics, master tool wielders, but frankly, find all that developer stuff boring, too hard or just don't know how to get into it. On the other hand, often there are developers who have that magic of making amazing code and beautiful programming, but are less sensitive to the needs and purposes of the artists. The Playground would be an area that would allow those two to create together.
Some of those artists have brilliant ideas but don't know how to implement them, some programmers need graphics/prototyping and UI work that is, honestly, distracting them from what they do best.
From my experience, there is always a developer with amazing skill and
knowledge of advanced computing methods to create tools from the dreams and there is always an artist that has crazy ideas but no clue how to make a tool for it. You get the idea... :) The Playground would be a place where those two could meet each other and communicate. Safely. ;)
As you can see, I am not 100% clear myself about the exact shape of this, but feel free to send any idea, criticism or even affirmation. I think it would be great for Inkscape!
Alex
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Craig Marshall <craig9@...400...> wrote:
Hi AJ,
Earlier in the year we chatted with Josh Andler about how the current website works and what a Drupal redesign/migration might look like. We suggested Drupal since that is what we specialize in
... if the community is willing, we'd love to get started soon.
That's great news! I am a mere newcomer to this mailing list (but a longtime basic user of inkscape) - thanks very much for the offer of time and work. After carefully reading through Aleksander's post (which was a great read, and I want to read more from him..) I have been thoroughly convinced that the current website is a confusing jumble of links with little organisation, so your offer to redo things should/could improve both the website exp'erience and enhance the look and appeal of inkscape as a project.
I particularly like the separation of roles: User and Dev - no comments there, I agree with all of that, and I think the separation would be a big improvement. I'm not too sure about the playground area though, there is kind of a grey area but I think there is too much overlap between the three areas (user, dev, playgroud) to try and mark each thing clearly.
e.g.: Where do nightly builds go? they could go in any of the three areas, but strictly and according to the reasons behind the separation, nightly builds should go in playground, but I think it's actually more important to keep downloads together for ease of access.
Thanks again! Craig
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My Basic issue with the division into User and Developer is that it is a false dichotomy. In community we try not to seperate the two though it can be hard. We have contributors these can be anyone. From the guy who creates simple stuff with inkscape to the profession artists, they contribute the validity of inkscape as viable and useable design/drawing program. Documentors and coders obviously improve inkscape. We also have a very low barrier to gain access to the bazaar repo. We mentor lots of new contributors.
I think seperating User and Developer on the website will stifle the way our community continues to work. A site design with the idea that if you are here you are a contributor or everyone is a contributor might be of more value.
Joshua L. Blocher
On Fri, 2010-09-03 at 15:52 +0900, Aleksandar Kovac wrote:
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 8:33 AM, AJ Ashton <aj.ashton@...400...> wrote: One important aspect of the site that we think needs work is the information architecture. We propose reducing the main navigation menu to:
- News - Download - Documentation - Resources - Gallery - Community - Development
-What would be the difference between the Documentation and the Resources?
Documentation is pretty straight forward. Resources will be for the planned plugin repository and other resources for Inkscape (color palettes, templates, filters, etc).
i.e. If I want to learn how to use that new Inkscape pattern thingy, where should I go? Where do I find the tutorials? Where do I find the function references? Documentation or Resources?
Documentation, if such exists for what you speak of.
-If I was a developer, where do I find dev docs? In 'Documentation' or 'Development'? i.e. I just dropped by because I need some references for the UI functions. Where could I find it?
There will probably be overlap. We will most likely have references from Development to documentation on the Wiki.
Cheers, Josh
On 10-09-04 1:35 , Joshua L. Blocher wrote:
My Basic issue with the division into User and Developer is that it is a false dichotomy. In community we try not to seperate the two though it can be hard. We have contributors these can be anyone. From the guy who creates simple stuff with inkscape to the profession artists, they contribute the validity of inkscape as viable and useable design/drawing program. Documentors and coders obviously improve inkscape. We also have a very low barrier to gain access to the bazaar repo. We mentor lots of new contributors.
I think seperating User and Developer on the website will stifle the way our community continues to work. A site design with the idea that if you are here you are a contributor or everyone is a contributor might be of more value.
Joshua L. Blocher
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Hi, A dichotomy would be devastating, surely, I agree with you completely! Personally, I think that Inkscape has an admirable community. I feel it is such a refreshment when I come to the Inkscape page and all the nighlies are there, built and ready! A true 'bazaar' in Raymond's sense of the word.
I tried to emphasize that user/dev areas are not meant to separate in any case. But, to optimize the display of the information based *on the roles* we take as visitors. I am not a native speaker, so I tend to make my texts very messy, sorry about that! :)...
In the real life, we take a lot of roles. For example one person could be, a father, an Inkscape developer, a son, a friend, a trumpet player, a bicyclist, etc... Someone can be all that, but it would be very inconvenient if that person had to ride a bicycle while playing the trumpet and at the same time trying to develop Inkscape with the family around. In life, we always somehow manage to balance and smooth our roles. And yes, even combine them sometimes! But, mostly we benefit from 'role playing' i.e. taking separate roles at separate times, even when those roles change really, really fast.
This is the analogy for the optimization I would like to see. Definitely not the borders and barriers and confines. But instead of 'all-the-content-all-of-the-time' approach, perhaps it would be better something like 'all you need for the development, and then some' and 'all you need for the art, and then some', with only a click to completely shift from one 'optimized environment' to the other. Certainly, data and information are not confined to separate 'boxes' or separations. They can be accessed from many points, using links, making it appear that they 'belong' to many pages. And I think that is a good thing. So, maybe I can ask you to imagine two examples where you have exactly the same content, but you arrange it so that in one example you pick the content to emphasize one quality of the content, and in the other example you arrange it so that it emphasizes some other quality. You will have the same building blocks in both examples, but the way you arrange those blocks to communicate the desired quality is question of optimization. Or, maybe better said 'information design'.
I believe it would be beneficial to the community by showing more depth to the Inkscape project, from two distinct and easily graspable standpoints. I believe it would allow both aspects to shine clearly. I am sorry if I sounded like the devs and artists would be in separate confines. To me, that would be horrible beyond any comprehension. We are all devs and artists, like you said, (although I am a complete ignoramus when it comes to the dev magic!), but I think you would agree that we are not both full at the same time. So, I suggested to have an information structure that can fully support our art side and our dev side.
This suggestion was based on the observations of the emergence of networked societies. As complex as they might seem, they appear as phase spaces to me. They always have certain attractors and deflectors and a fine graduation in between. (sorry for this physics/maths oversimplification :)... Dev Area and User Area are attractors within the same phase space, The 'playground' is everything in between, and that's where all the dynamics happen.
The examples of successful implementation of this principle would be: -Mozilla foundation sites -Blender website -Wordpress website ...
I excuse myself to any maths and psychology experts for oversimplifications. ;)
Alex.
Hi Alex,
I tried to emphasize that user/dev areas are not meant to separate in any case. But, to optimize the display of the information based *on the roles* we take as visitors.
...
I believe it would be beneficial to the community by showing more depth to the Inkscape project, from two distinct and easily graspable standpoints. I believe it would allow both aspects to shine clearly.
The main issue I see with this is that there are many more than two roles that visitors to the Inkscape website might fall into. So instead of imagining *roles* I think it makes more sense to imagine specific *goals* a user might have in mind when they come to the site. The distinction is perhaps minor, and often the two might seem to align. But certain goals will be common across various roles, and it probably makes sense to keep those together. When these goals overlap, the page/section should focus on either the most common, or on the user who is likely to be least familiar with Inkscape.
Naturally, different parts of the website will end up being more user-focused or more developer-focused, and with the right menu names & structure this should be clear. But it sounds like you might be looking to define two explicit sections or 'modes' on the site? I don't think that is the best approach - let me know if I'm not understanding this correctly.
It's also important to remember that inkscape.org is only one part of the community, and a lot of the imporant 'playground'-like activity happen elsewhere. Sites like Launchpad, the DeviantArt group, and various 'unofficial' parts of the community will remain important. These sites could be promoted and perhaps partially integrated to inkscape.org, but it would be impossible for Inkscape.org to organize and control these things all the way down to 'everything you need, and then some' for a particular role.
Your suggestions about showing off Inkscape as a powerful tool with quality examples are important, and this is what newcomers to the site will see. But I think its also fine to show the development community aspects as well, even if the user is only interested in using Inkscape and not getting involved.
-- AJ
Hi, First of all, I am aware that my English is not the best, and I would like to excuse myself if I ever sound harsh, hard-stanced or garbled... That happens a lot :)... Please, take anything I write with a big 'ESL' tag in front of it. :) Also, feel free to flame me anytime. Thank you.
The main issue I see with this is that there are many more than two roles that visitors to the Inkscape website might fall into. So instead of imagining *roles* I think it makes more sense to imagine specific *goals* a user might have in mind when they come to the site. The distinction is perhaps minor, and often the two might seem to align. But certain goals will be common across various roles, and it probably makes sense to keep those together. When these goals overlap, the page/section should focus on either the most common, or on the user who is likely to be least familiar with Inkscape.
Yes, you are right! A 'Goal' and relations you mentioned describe this purpose very well. I've used the word 'role' since it is a humanistic term, and 'goal' is marketing/branding term. I aggree that 'goals' are an essential part of any 'role'. The other word we could use is 'persona', in the communication studies sense, but there is also a 'persona' in marketing, which is not quite the meaning I would like to communicate. 'Role... it is an expected or free or continuously changing behavior and may have a given individual social status or social position.' -Wikipedia
*Excuse me for using 'role' instead of 'goals' and bringing in some confusion all the time. When talking about 'open-source' paradigm, I tend to use humanistic terms to make a distinction from 'market and marketing' paradigms. for example... Marketing jargon: target, goal, consumer, persona... Roughly corresponding humanistic terms: need, purpose, person, role... The 'Open source market' sounds like an etymological oxymoron. I might be wrong, but 'Open-source economy' on the other hand, seems to work fine... But, you should see me talking to the clients LOL.
In any case, I have a feeling we are talking about the same thing. :) Both Dev and User 'goals' or 'roles' in many cases are in one person.
Naturally, different parts of the website will end up being more user-focused or more developer-focused, and with the right menu names & structure this should be clear.
Yes! This path! The right menu (section) names & structure, and I would add 'proper visual communication', but you are a master in that field. ;).
But it sounds like you might be looking to define two explicit sections or 'modes' on the site? I don't think that is the best approach - let me know if I'm not understanding this correctly.
No, no, no! (Heh, I sound like my granny :))... No explicit sections or modes. But more like the approach you mentioned above. I'm sorry if it seemed like sections...
It's also important to remember that inkscape.org is only one part of the community...
True, I let that out of sight. :( That was my stupid oversight. The community is much wider.
Your suggestions about showing off Inkscape as a powerful tool with quality examples are important, and this is what newcomers to the site will see. But I think its also fine to show the development community aspects as well, even if the user is only interested in using Inkscape and not getting involved.
Yes, of course. In the messages before, I tried to strongly emphasize that Developer and User roles are just sides of One Inkscape community. They are not two individual characters, they are only aspects. User role represents the 'goals' connected to using Inkscape, Developer role represents the 'goals' connected to creating Inkscape. I am sorry if it did not come through clearly. ESL! :) ...
I cannot claim the validity since it is an unfinished research, but as it seems to me, this happens a lot: -Those who are able to masterfully use some FLOSS application, often do not contribute FLOSS projects because they feel that: 'they cannot code, it takes a lot of time, don't have good social skills, etc.' -Those who are able to masterfully create applications often don't contribute to a FLOSS project because: 'it's not their 'itch', don't see it's purpose or vision, etc.' -in the extreme cases, users treat a FLOSS project like a free (beer) alternative to something else; or the developers treat it as a tribal territory/group belonging thing. -it was also observed that well presented projects seem to attract both Developers and Users. Inkscape, thanks to it's amazing community, is here, I think.
To be honest, (marketing mode> ON) the idea behind the suggestion of 'role' or 'goals' based approach to the website information structure was to 'lure' more of both Devs and Users for the benefit of Inkscape project by providing comfy information environment. (Not sure if the way I formulated it was any good). -You don't even have to know how to submit a bug, and still be a contributor to the project. The untapped power of the users is the immense amount of feedback they create. A managed approach to that feedback gives a wealth of data that can positively influence the development. Mozilla with Aza Raskin do that beautifully. I feel that it would be good to implement this aspect here, too. ... I admire the work you girls and guys are doing at the developmentseed! It is obvious to me that you are the Masters and that the things written here might be trivial to you. Sorry 'bout that! :) I would not like to impede the new website in any way. I type all of this in an effort to have an open-mind and to follow the 'bazaar' instead of 'cathedral' approach, that we designers tend to do. ;)... And, to hopefully induce (or provoke?) more ideas from more people.
Cheers!
Alex
On 9/3/10, AJ Ashton wrote:
from Alexandre Prokoudine in the 'Free Desktop Release' thread:
In fact, our custom website CMS is rather unmaintained. Several people volunteered to create a new website based on drupal or possibly something else, and we never heard back from them.
This was me and my colleague Young Hahn. We work for Development Seed, a small web shop in Washington, DC, with a focus on using & contributing to open-source projects. Young and I are both designers who rely on Inkscape for the majority of our graphics work. You can see the kinds of things Inkscape is helping us do at http://developmentseed.org/projects
Earlier in the year we chatted with Josh Andler about how the current website works and what a Drupal redesign/migration might look like. We suggested Drupal since that is what we specialize in - Young, in addition to being a kick-ass designer, is also a highly respected and experienced Drupal developer.
Since our initial chat with Josh we've been letting other projects distract us. However, recently I've been speaking to Young and our CEO, Eric Gundersen, about scheduling some real time for this and, if the community is willing, we'd love to get started soon.
I've just had a note from OSUOSL server manager that creating a dev environment for you (like inkscape.org/demo) would be easy. Drupal 7 preferably, he says :)
Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
participants (8)
-
AJ Ashton -
Aleksandar Kovac -
Aleksandar Kovač -
Alex Kovac -
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Craig Marshall -
Joshua A. Andler -
Joshua L. Blocher