Now that the Eraser tool is in SVN for quite some time, what do people think of it? Is it useful? In what mode do you use it, if at all?
Disclaimer: as you may remember I was against this tool from the beginning, considering it redundant. Its Delete mode is equivalent to Alt+drag followed by Del in Selector, and its Cut mode is now equivalent to Alt+drag in Calligraphic pen which I just added:
* When drawing with <b>Alt</b>, Inkscape <b>subtracts</b> the path you have created from the selected path (with <b>Shift</b>, it adds to the selected path). This allows you to quickly patch or fix problems in a stroke you have drawn without leaving the tool.
So, do we really have to spend the prime toolbar space on a tool which does what other tools already do?
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 1:42 AM, bulia byak wrote:
Now that the Eraser tool is in SVN for quite some time, what do people think of it? Is it useful? In what mode do you use it, if at all?
I must admit I have problems with it.
1. It erases destructively. If it used booloops LPE, that would be a whole different story. 2. It messes up with erased region bringing it back on subsequent strokes. E.g. you draw over a region, and it disappears. Then you start stroking close to that region, touching it a bit and voila --- the regions is back. That's quite confusing. 3. It doesn't quite work with 3D boxes (Tweak tool is unpredictable there too, though).
But. Eraser tool is a great metaphor for wacom users. The point is that you turn a stylus up side down and it works as eraser.
Alexandre
bulia byak wrote the following on 01/26/2009 05:42 PM:
Now that the Eraser tool is in SVN for quite some time, what do people think of it? Is it useful? In what mode do you use it, if at all?
Disclaimer: as you may remember I was against this tool from the beginning, considering it redundant. Its Delete mode is equivalent to Alt+drag followed by Del in Selector, and its Cut mode is now equivalent to Alt+drag in Calligraphic pen which I just added:
- When drawing with <b>Alt</b>, Inkscape <b>subtracts</b> the path you
have created from the selected path (with <b>Shift</b>, it adds to the selected path). This allows you to quickly patch or fix problems in a stroke you have drawn without leaving the tool.
So, do we really have to spend the prime toolbar space on a tool which does what other tools already do?
I rarely use the eraser tool but I'd hate for it to go away. I suppose someday it would be nice to have the toolbox toolbar customizable so that users could add or remove icons. Perhaps that doesn't make sense now but if you ever added more tool options in the future...
heathenx
bulia byak wrote:
Now that the Eraser tool is in SVN for quite some time, what do people think of it? Is it useful? In what mode do you use it, if at all?
Disclaimer: as you may remember I was against this tool from the beginning, considering it redundant. Its Delete mode is equivalent to Alt+drag followed by Del in Selector, and its Cut mode is now equivalent to Alt+drag in Calligraphic pen which I just added:
- When drawing with <b>Alt</b>, Inkscape <b>subtracts</b> the path you
have created from the selected path (with <b>Shift</b>, it adds to the selected path). This allows you to quickly patch or fix problems in a stroke you have drawn without leaving the tool.
So, do we really have to spend the prime toolbar space on a tool which does what other tools already do?
What happens when in Calligraphy tool preferences you have it set not to Select new path?
I think this does make Eraser tool redundant, the only advantage of the eraser tool is because newbies feel more confident with it being there.
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:16 PM, Mihaela <myhaella5@...529...> wrote:
What happens when in Calligraphy tool preferences you have it set not to Select new path?
If you had a path selected before you start Alt+drag, this setting does not affect its operation.
On 01/26/2009 03:42 PM, bulia byak wrote:
Now that the Eraser tool is in SVN for quite some time, what do people think of it? Is it useful? In what mode do you use it, if at all?
I don't use it too often, but only when it offers something to be done a little easier. Specifically the cutting through a selection of multiple objects. If our boolops did that, I would probably just use that instead. I think as a tool, if it was more robust, I probably would use it much more often then.
Disclaimer: as you may remember I was against this tool from the beginning, considering it redundant. Its Delete mode is equivalent to Alt+drag followed by Del in Selector, and its Cut mode is now equivalent to Alt+drag in Calligraphic pen which I just added:
- When drawing with<b>Alt</b>, Inkscape<b>subtracts</b> the path you
have created from the selected path (with<b>Shift</b>, it adds to the selected path). This allows you to quickly patch or fix problems in a stroke you have drawn without leaving the tool.
Very cool! The only request that I'd have is as above, if you could make it operate on multiple objects in the way that the Eraser tool does, that would rock.
So, do we really have to spend the prime toolbar space on a tool which does what other tools already do?
This is a difficult question. I agree with Mihaela about the possible benefit to making the program feel more approachable to newbies. Also when I use my tablet, it is handy to flip the pen over as Alexandre mentioned. I also think that if the tool were fleshed out a bit more it could be quite useful.
For example, if it had a scalpal/knife/scissors (whatever) mode that would make 0-loss cuts (only cutting, not removing pieces), that would be fantastic. Alexandre also mentioned an idea for a non-destructive mode that used the boolops lpe, which would also be great and different (and I would exclusively use it over destructive cuts).
Just my .02, in it's current state it doesn't offer much, but it could have potential.
Cheers, Josh
bulia byak wrote:
Now that the Eraser tool is in SVN for quite some time, what do people think of it? Is it useful? In what mode do you use it, if at all?
Disclaimer: as you may remember I was against this tool from the beginning, considering it redundant. Its Delete mode is equivalent to Alt+drag followed by Del in Selector, and its Cut mode is now equivalent to Alt+drag in Calligraphic pen which I just added:
- When drawing with <b>Alt</b>, Inkscape <b>subtracts</b> the path you
have created from the selected path (with <b>Shift</b>, it adds to the selected path). This allows you to quickly patch or fix problems in a stroke you have drawn without leaving the tool.
So, do we really have to spend the prime toolbar space on a tool which does what other tools already do?
I haven't been using it, because I only use the packages provided in Ubuntu, and they don't have it. I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions with the small amount of people that use SVN compared to Inkscape userbase.
Lack of Eraser tool has always been the most lacking feature in Inkscape - but that's because I'm not doing technical diagrams and such all the time. When using a drawing tablet in calligraphy mode, you're always looking for an Eraser, because other methods don't feel natural. Actually, that's one of the missing features where you feel Inkscape isn't adapted for drawing tablets (note I didn't say "isn't suited" - Inkscape in Calligraphy mode is one of - if not the - most natural feeling drawing programs in Linux).
Alt+anything doesn't work, because the Alt key is the key used to move a window on my DE. Also, I'm not sure how using a mouse would make it suddenly more natural, but when using a drawing tablet I'd hardly say having to press a button (or an ExpressKey©) when drawing with the other hand is the way to go.
Toolbar space is prime, but having a natural eraser is priceless. Also, if one day Inkscape support assigning different tools for each input device, we'll definitely get a use for pencil erasers. Pen tip = Calligraphic Pen Eraser = Eraser Mouse = Paint Bucket
If I was only in technical drawings / drawings with a mouse I'd say an Eraser is useless. For natural drawing, where you're constantly drawing/erasing, it's a huge improvement.
Loïc
On 01/29/2009 04:06 PM, Loïc Martin wrote:
I haven't been using it, because I only use the packages provided in Ubuntu, and they don't have it. I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions with the small amount of people that use SVN compared to Inkscape userbase.
Would you like to try it? If you go to https://launchpad.net/~inkscape-nightly/+archive/ppa it has repository info for testing inkscape-svn. It can be installed along-side of the officially supported version too, so there is nothing to lose.
Alt+anything doesn't work, because the Alt key is the key used to move a window on my DE. Also, I'm not sure how using a mouse would make it suddenly more natural, but when using a drawing tablet I'd hardly say having to press a button (or an ExpressKey©) when drawing with the other hand is the way to go.
Ouch... you're missing out a lot in Inkscape (alt is incredibly useful). I switched my "move window" key to the Win key just for that reason... my commitment to getting the most out of Inkscape. ;)
Toolbar space is prime, but having a natural eraser is priceless. Also, if one day Inkscape support assigning different tools for each input device, we'll definitely get a use for pencil erasers. Pen tip = Calligraphic Pen Eraser = Eraser Mouse = Paint Bucket
If I was only in technical drawings / drawings with a mouse I'd say an Eraser is useless. For natural drawing, where you're constantly drawing/erasing, it's a huge improvement.
At least with Pen tip and Eraser, it does remember the assigned tools for each (not sure about mouse). It would really be great though if you would be willing to test inkscape-svn via the repo above and give some feedback based on what you experience.
Cheers, Josh
I actually quite like the concept of having it as a tool (I'm not a big fan of modifiers when using my tablet), but currently the option in the callig tool is much more useful to me as it has all the fixation etc options that I need to actually make it useable. The eraser is stuck on a slanted fixed angle that makes it a lot less useful than it could be. would be nice if using the eraser on the wacom in the callig tool did the alt mode, if that was the case i think i'd be fine without the seperate tool...
2009/1/26 bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...>:
Now that the Eraser tool is in SVN for quite some time, what do people think of it? Is it useful? In what mode do you use it, if at all?
Disclaimer: as you may remember I was against this tool from the beginning, considering it redundant. Its Delete mode is equivalent to Alt+drag followed by Del in Selector, and its Cut mode is now equivalent to Alt+drag in Calligraphic pen which I just added:
- When drawing with <b>Alt</b>, Inkscape <b>subtracts</b> the path you
have created from the selected path (with <b>Shift</b>, it adds to the selected path). This allows you to quickly patch or fix problems in a stroke you have drawn without leaving the tool.
So, do we really have to spend the prime toolbar space on a tool which does what other tools already do?
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
This SF.net email is sponsored by: SourcForge Community SourceForge wants to tell your story. http://p.sf.net/sfu/sf-spreadtheword _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 6:45 PM, john cliff <john.cliff@...400...> wrote:
I actually quite like the concept of having it as a tool (I'm not a big fan of modifiers when using my tablet), but currently the option in the callig tool is much more useful to me as it has all the fixation etc options that I need to actually make it useable. The eraser is stuck on a slanted fixed angle that makes it a lot less useful than it could be.
Exactly. To make it truly useful as a subtractor, we would need to duplicate most of the Calligraphic tool. Which would be bad from both the UI perspective and the coding perspective.
would be nice if using the eraser on the wacom in the callig tool did the alt mode, if that was the case i think i'd be fine without the seperate tool...
Absolutely. Would it work for everyone if turning the pen over would switch you to Calligraphic tool with Alt reversed, i.e. erasing without Alt and drawing with Alt?
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 3:02 AM, bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 6:45 PM, john cliff <john.cliff@...400...> wrote:
would be nice if using the eraser on the wacom in the callig tool did the alt mode, if that was the case i think i'd be fine without the seperate tool...
Absolutely. Would it work for everyone if turning the pen over would switch you to Calligraphic tool with Alt reversed, i.e. erasing without Alt and drawing with Alt?
I'm not sure how it works now, but for me it would work if the tool options are saved per input device.
Regards, Tobias
Is it possible for the eraser tool to just link to the calligraphy tool in Alt reverse mode? I think it makes sense to have an icon (it's more user friendly, really), but not to duplicate code (or do a less useful job with different code).
If it is possible, could it then use and store different parameters so, in essence, it acts like its own tool but operates exactly the same as the calligraphy tool (with alt reversed)?
JF
bulia byak wrote:
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 6:45 PM, john cliff <john.cliff@...400...> wrote:
I actually quite like the concept of having it as a tool (I'm not a big fan of modifiers when using my tablet), but currently the option in the callig tool is much more useful to me as it has all the fixation etc options that I need to actually make it useable. The eraser is stuck on a slanted fixed angle that makes it a lot less useful than it could be.
Exactly. To make it truly useful as a subtractor, we would need to duplicate most of the Calligraphic tool. Which would be bad from both the UI perspective and the coding perspective.
would be nice if using the eraser on the wacom in the callig tool did the alt mode, if that was the case i think i'd be fine without the seperate tool...
Absolutely. Would it work for everyone if turning the pen over would switch you to Calligraphic tool with Alt reversed, i.e. erasing without Alt and drawing with Alt?
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 5:02 AM, bulia byak wrote:
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 6:45 PM, john cliff wrote:
Absolutely. Would it work for everyone if turning the pen over would switch you to Calligraphic tool with Alt reversed, i.e. erasing without Alt and drawing with Alt?
Just curious... Why is it Alt for subtracting? Dunno for others, but being a hardcore GIMP user I got used to Ctrl for that (in terms of selection tools).
Alexandre
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 5:02 AM, bulia byak wrote:
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 6:45 PM, john cliff wrote:
Absolutely. Would it work for everyone if turning the pen over would switch you to Calligraphic tool with Alt reversed, i.e. erasing without Alt and drawing with Alt?
Just curious... Why is it Alt for subtracting? Dunno for others, but being a hardcore GIMP user I got used to Ctrl for that (in terms of selection tools).
While Shift has "add" as one of its meanings in many tools, I don't think we have any traditional key for "subtract" - in which case following Gimp would be nice, if not for the fact that Ctrl is already taken in calligraphic for a more traditional role of "constraint" (tracking guide).
bulia byak wrote:
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 5:02 AM, bulia byak wrote:
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 6:45 PM, john cliff wrote: Absolutely. Would it work for everyone if turning the pen over would switch you to Calligraphic tool with Alt reversed, i.e. erasing without Alt and drawing with Alt?
Just curious... Why is it Alt for subtracting? Dunno for others, but being a hardcore GIMP user I got used to Ctrl for that (in terms of selection tools).
While Shift has "add" as one of its meanings in many tools, I don't think we have any traditional key for "subtract" - in which case following Gimp would be nice, if not for the fact that Ctrl is already taken in calligraphic for a more traditional role of "constraint" (tracking guide).
While I still need time to try the CVS Inkscape and give the erase button a thorough test (I hope we'd have at least a week, if not a month of use before any decision is taken), here are some ideas:
The toolbar space is a prime ressource on small screens (small laptops, netbooks), but not on common desktop screens (on a 24' I can easily fit 8 more buttons) and desktop-replacement laptops (17' on laptops usually have at least 900 lines, my 6 years old 15' has 1200...) - those small screen laptops/netbooks are the ones that need the Alt key the most for moving windows on the desktop (you can't click OK on many configurations screens without moving the windows up).
Can we really, for the sake of those users that will benefit from a smaller toolbar, ask those same users to give up the only feature they can't leave with (unless they're geeks and know how to reconfigure their desktop to use another key than Alt)? For users with a decent screen resolution, there's still plenty of space on the toolbar (bring it on!).
Loïc
john cliff wrote the following on 1/29/2009 6:45 PM:
I actually quite like the concept of having it as a tool (I'm not a big fan of modifiers when using my tablet), but currently the option in the callig tool is much more useful to me as it has all the fixation etc options that I need to actually make it useable. The eraser is stuck on a slanted fixed angle that makes it a lot less useful than it could be. would be nice if using the eraser on the wacom in the callig tool did the alt mode, if that was the case i think i'd be fine without the seperate tool...
I sometimes wish the eraser tool was a round shape (circle) instead of a calligraphy shape, similar to Gimp's round brush. That always made sense to me but then again I haven't ever read why the eraser tool is the way that it is. Perhaps it's done that way for a reason.
heathenx
I Agree. I'm a heavy user, and I think that Eraser toll *must* have a round shape. It could have also an option to choose its shape (round, caligraphic, square), and another option to add instead of erase. Eraser tool is more user-friendly than caligraphic tool to new users searching for a way to erase parts of a object. At a first glance, who would know that a tool to create caligraphic shapes can erase content too? I think this isn't the tool's purpose.
[]'s
I sometimes wish the eraser tool was a round shape (circle) instead of a calligraphy shape, similar to Gimp's round brush. That always made sense to me but then again I haven't ever read why the eraser tool is the way that it is. Perhaps it's done that way for a reason.
heathenx
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 1:42 AM, bulia byak wrote:
Disclaimer: as you may remember I was against this tool from the beginning, considering it redundant. Its Delete mode is equivalent to Alt+drag followed by Del in Selector, and its Cut mode is now equivalent to Alt+drag in Calligraphic pen which I just added:
And here is another point --- Eraser tool doesn't need a selection to work on, while Subtract mode needs one.
Alexandre
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:
And here is another point --- Eraser tool doesn't need a selection to work on, while Subtract mode needs one.
I think the ability to restrict its action to a selection is an advantage, not to mention it is more consistent with the way all other tools work. Pressing Ctrl+A is easy, and each tool that wants a selection but gets none reports so in the statusbar, so it's hard to miss.
On Feb 7, 2009, at 9:23 AM, bulia byak wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:
And here is another point --- Eraser tool doesn't need a selection to work on, while Subtract mode needs one.
I think the ability to restrict its action to a selection is an advantage, not to mention it is more consistent with the way all other tools work. Pressing Ctrl+A is easy, and each tool that wants a selection but gets none reports so in the statusbar, so it's hard to miss.
What I've observed is that for a majority of users this actually causes more confusion.
Also the fact that despite a selection being pertinent, the default is to hide selections also adds to the confusion.
And at least for new users, it is quite easy to not catch reports in the statusbar.
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Jon A. Cruz <jon@...18...> wrote:
Also the fact that despite a selection being pertinent, the default is to hide selections also adds to the confusion.
I thought that maybe it's better to return the default in Calligraphic tool to show selections. Hiding them is better from artistic viewpoint, but beginner users are not at that stage yet :)
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 8:23 PM, bulia byak wrote:
I think the ability to restrict its action to a selection is an advantage, not to mention it is more consistent with the way all other tools work.
Hm. Having used IWarp in GIMP, I always wanted Tweak tool that doesn't require a selection :)
Alexandre
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:
Hm. Having used IWarp in GIMP, I always wanted Tweak tool that doesn't require a selection :)
It's more correct to say "does not respect", not "does not require" :)
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 12:11 AM, bulia byak wrote:
Hm. Having used IWarp in GIMP, I always wanted Tweak tool that doesn't require a selection :)
It's more correct to say "does not respect", not "does not require" :)
Well, the thing is that in my experience when you have a bunch of snowflakes or leaves or other shapes that you hunt with the Tweak tool across the display, you usually have them in a separate layer anyway. That makes selection an extra step that could be omitted. But YMMV :)
Alexandre
participants (11)
-
Alexandre Prokoudine -
bulia byak -
heathenx -
john cliff -
Jon A. Cruz -
Josh Andler -
Joshua Facemyer -
Karlisson -
Loïc Martin -
Mihaela -
Tobias Jakobs