One other task needed before we get too much further is to update the Roadmap. Mental, Ted, Ishmal, and others, can you give us some quick status on the following items?
[Perl, Python scripting; XSLT]
[embed/outbed, gamma scripts]
[Effects menu]
[extensions warning and logging]
[Namespace changes]
[Making reprs private]
Also, Arpad, can you give us a list of the translations that were updated from 0.40 to 0.41?
Thanks, Bryce
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:36:56 -0800 (PST), Bryce Harrington <bryce@...260...> wrote:
One other task needed before we get too much further is to update the Roadmap.
You probably mean the Release Notes:
http://inkscape.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ReleaseNotes
[Perl, Python scripting; XSLT]
Bob's
[embed/outbed, gamma scripts]
Are they in CVS somewhere? If not, they should be. The image embed/outbed scripts are very useful even if there's no UI in Inkscape for them. The author, Ben Crowell, is perhaps the best person to add a description for them.
[Effects menu]
As far as I understand this is not going to be visible to users yet, so can be removed
[extensions warning and logging]
Ted's
[Namespace changes]
[Making reprs private]
Mental's
Bryce Harrington wrote:
One other task needed before we get too much further is to update the Roadmap. Mental, Ted, Ishmal, and others, can you give us some quick status on the following items?
[Perl, Python scripting; XSLT]
The XSLT stuff is available in /src/io/XSLTStream, and works very well in the tests. We just need some GUI stuff for it. Python and Perl are both integrated, but at the moment have nothing to talk to. We have been working like bandits for the past several weeks to get the DOM stuff working, and to expose the internals of Inkscape via Xpath and UI-DOM, to provide this. Unfortunately, it is such a large task that I am sure that it cannot be done by .41. Definitely a .42 arrival.
Bob
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:16:01 -0600, Bob Jamison <rwjj@...127...> wrote:
The XSLT stuff is available in /src/io/XSLTStream, and works very well in the tests. We just need some GUI stuff for it. Python and Perl are both integrated, but at the moment have nothing to talk to. We have been working like bandits for the past several weeks to get the DOM stuff working, and to expose the internals of Inkscape via Xpath and UI-DOM, to provide this. Unfortunately, it is such a large task that I am sure that it cannot be done by .41. Definitely a .42 arrival.
Please then add appropriate verbiage to the notes (something like "preliminary support for scripting", with some details).
On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 17:36 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
[Effects menu]
This has been pushed out to 0.42, it is infact in there and working -- but there aren't any really nice effects, so it is kinda pointless. I'm hoping (with Ishmal's help) that Effects will be the "cool feature" for 0.42 :)
[extensions warning and logging]
This is already in the codebase, but unfortunately there isn't alot of text for the warnings. I'm hoping to get this into the .inx files before the release, but atleast there is much more information than there was previously -- even if it isn't has helpful as it could be.
--Ted
Ted Gould wrote:
On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 17:36 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
[Effects menu]
This has been pushed out to 0.42, it is infact in there and working -- but there aren't any really nice effects, so it is kinda pointless. I'm hoping (with Ishmal's help) that Effects will be the "cool feature" for 0.42 :)
[extensions warning and logging]
This is already in the codebase, but unfortunately there isn't alot of text for the warnings. I'm hoping to get this into the .inx files before the release, but atleast there is much more information than there was previously -- even if it isn't has helpful as it could be.
What types of effects are you thinking? Where is the brainstorm on this? It would be great to brainstorm more on the types of effects possible. Sounds very interesting. Man, I can't wait to support SVG filters...and yes, I know that these are different.
Jon
On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 12:40 -0800, Jon Phillips wrote:
What types of effects are you thinking? Where is the brainstorm on this? It would be great to brainstorm more on the types of effects possible. Sounds very interesting. Man, I can't wait to support SVG filters...and yes, I know that these are different.
I'm thinking about every effect that you can think of! ;) No, basically right now I'm working on making a great framework, with a few examples. My hope is that this will create an easy, creative way for people to contribute to Inkscape. I know that my first Open Source programming activity was a GIMP plugin...
I believe that there is already a Wiki page of ideas.
--Ted
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Ted Gould wrote:
[extensions warning and logging]
This is already in the codebase, but unfortunately there isn't alot of text for the warnings. I'm hoping to get this into the .inx files before the release, but atleast there is much more information than there was previously -- even if it isn't has helpful as it could be.
I'm really unsure about the dialog that pops up on startup warning about extensions. I think this is going to unnecessarily freak out a lot of users, who will conclude something is drastically wrong, when in reality the problem is not abnormal. I'm not sure what the best approach is, but we really need to put some thought into this.
I'd like to suggest we turn this dialog off for the 0.41 release by default, and try to figure out a more appropriate solution for 0.42.
Bryce
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Ted Gould wrote:
[extensions warning and logging]
This is already in the codebase, but unfortunately there isn't alot of text for the warnings. I'm hoping to get this into the .inx files before the release, but atleast there is much more information than there was previously -- even if it isn't has helpful as it could be.
I'm really unsure about the dialog that pops up on startup warning about extensions. I think this is going to unnecessarily freak out a lot of users, who will conclude something is drastically wrong, when in reality the problem is not abnormal. I'm not sure what the best approach is, but we really need to put some thought into this.
I'd like to suggest we turn this dialog off for the 0.41 release by default, and try to figure out a more appropriate solution for 0.42.
Bryce
I totally agree. As a win user it freaks me out and I've been in here for years. "The problem is not abnormal"? I don't even know what the problem is, so heaven help somebody picking up Inkscape for the first time. As for telling people what to do about it. The average user just is not going to do anything about it, except say "Bye". They will want something that works, not something that half, quarter etc works.
My thoughts are: If it doesn't work, lets put some real effort into fixing it, and we that's out then don't draw attention to it. So I agree with turning the dialog off for 0.41....................but I'd still rather it was fixed.
vellum
On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:13:37 +1100, vellum <kaver@...68...> wrote:
I totally agree. As a win user it freaks me out and I've been in here for years. "The problem is not abnormal"? I don't even know what the problem is,
Read the warning. It explains it quite well.
so heaven help somebody picking up Inkscape for the first time.
Tons of other software have these first-run warnings of different sort. It's common. The "run this at startup" checkbox solves the problem once and forever.
telling people what to do about it. The average user just is not going to do anything about it, except say "Bye". They will want something that works, not something that half, quarter etc works.
Sorry but this is ridiculous. Just for an example, a freshly installed Xara gives me two warnings in a row (about non-English language and something else, I don't remember now). Has it precluded it from becoming a popular program? Not at all.
My thoughts are: If it doesn't work, lets put some real effort into fixing it
Fixing WHAT? Extensions do work IF YOU INSTALL THEM. We cannot install tons of different software with ourselves, it's your responsibility to install it if you need these formats. This is what this warning is about.
Sorry, we're dealing with users here not developers. I see it as potentially more harmful than good. When I look at extension-errors.log the first thing I see is
"Extension "AI Output" failed to load because a dependency was not met. Dependency:: type: executable location: path string: pstoedit"
and this is followed by another 12 of the same.
Firstly, new user probably does not know what "dependency" means. Secondly, he/she might and I stress just might know what "type:executable" means. Third, probably doesn't know what "location:path" means and fourthly doesn't know what "string: pstoedit" means. And this goes on and on. If they don't know what they mean how are they going to install them? No way, except they have a friendly developer.
Hey,and if they turn the message off. How do they get it to show again if they want to check to see whether their installation has been successful, and they have forgotten where to look?
Maybe naieve questions but I'm trying to put myself in a new users shoes here.
vellum
----- Original Message ----- From: "bulia byak" <buliabyak@...400...> To: "vellum" <kaver@...68...> Cc: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...260...>; "Ted Gould" <ted@...11...>; inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Status needed for ReleaseNotes
On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:13:37 +1100, vellum <kaver@...68...> wrote:
I totally agree. As a win user it freaks me out and I've been in here
for
years. "The problem is not abnormal"? I don't even know what the problem
is,
Read the warning. It explains it quite well.
so heaven help somebody picking up Inkscape for the first time.
Tons of other software have these first-run warnings of different sort. It's common. The "run this at startup" checkbox solves the problem once and forever.
telling people what to do about it. The average user just is not going
to do
anything about it, except say "Bye". They will want something that
works,
not something that half, quarter etc works.
Sorry but this is ridiculous. Just for an example, a freshly installed Xara gives me two warnings in a row (about non-English language and something else, I don't remember now). Has it precluded it from becoming a popular program? Not at all.
My thoughts are: If it doesn't work, lets put some real effort into
fixing
it
Fixing WHAT? Extensions do work IF YOU INSTALL THEM. We cannot install tons of different software with ourselves, it's your responsibility to install it if you need these formats. This is what this warning is about.
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On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:13:44 +1100, vellum <kaver@...68...> wrote:
Sorry, we're dealing with users here not developers. I see it as potentially more harmful than good. When I look at extension-errors.log the first thing I see is
"Extension "AI Output" failed to load because a dependency was not met. Dependency:: type: executable location: path string: pstoedit"
We discussed this just recently. The only thing remaining to do is to add a <description> element to each inx file. This will be a human-readable string, for example "Install Skencil (from www.skencil.org) to be able to import Skencil files into Inkscape." Then it will be shown in the log. All we need is voluteers to write these descriptions.
Hey,and if they turn the message off. How do they get it to show again if they want to check to see whether their installation has been successful, and they have forgotten where to look?
It's the same problem as with all other "Don't show it again" checkboxes that are pretty common in software. How do other programs work around this?
vellum wrote
Hey,and if they turn the message off. How do they get it to show again
if
they want to check to see whether their installation has been
successful,
and they have forgotten where to look?
bulia wrote
It's the same problem as with all other "Don't show it again" checkboxes that are pretty common in software. How do other programs work around this?
I don't know, and I'm not sure that that is relevant. I want to know if we can do it with Inkscape?
vellum
Hi,
Hey,and if they turn the message off. How do they get it to show
again if
they want to check to see whether their installation has been
successful,
and they have forgotten where to look?
It's the same problem as with all other "Don't show it again" checkboxes that are pretty common in software. How do other programs work around this?
by adding an option in prefs: show or not
Arpad Biro
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
On Fri, 4 Feb 2005, bulia byak wrote:
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 05:41:40 -0400 From: bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> To: vellum <kaver@...68...> Cc: Inkscape users list inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net, inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, Ted Gould <ted@...11...>, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...260...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Status needed for ReleaseNotes
On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:13:44 +1100, vellum <kaver@...68...> wrote:
Sorry, we're dealing with users here not developers. I see it as potentially more harmful than good. When I look at extension-errors.log the first thing I see is
Users do not read error messages or Help manuals except if they cannot avoid them. I know some of the people here might read the user manual before trying to use newly purchased electronics but if you do you are exceptional, most people dont do that kind of thing.
Release builds will be around a lot longer than Nightly testing builds. Given that distrubtions take a long time to ship we could be hearing questions about these error messages for at least a year and possibly two years or more. If I'm stuck with an old build the local sysadmin installed I have virtually no ability to trouble shoot such errors.
I would strongly encourage release builds to show minimal error messages. A status bar message saying "not all plugins have loaded, see error log for more details" should nearly be enough or this should be dumped to the console where only testers should see it.
Hey,and if they turn the message off. How do they get it to show again if they want to check to see whether their installation has been successful, and they have forgotten where to look?
It's the same problem as with all other "Don't show it again" checkboxes that are pretty common in software. How do other programs work around this?
Gnome tells you not to do it at all. It is considered very bad user interface design.
If an error requiers "Dont show this message again" then it cannot be that important.
- Alan H.
On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:07:43 +0000 (GMT), Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...> wrote:
I would strongly encourage release builds to show minimal error messages. A status bar message saying "not all plugins have loaded, see error log for more details" should nearly be enough or this should be dumped to the console where only testers should see it.
It won't fit to the statusbar. And if you shorten it, it will just be meaningless.
And in the console, I won't have an easy way to disable it. Which means it will be annoying as hell for those who run it mostly from console.
Gnome tells you not to do it at all. It is considered very bad user interface design.
I disagree. In some situations it's very appropriate.
If an error requiers "Dont show this message again" then it cannot be that important.
No. It is important for first time launch, and the checkbox is a way to limit it to the first time only.
If an error requiers "Dont show this message again" then it cannot be that important.
No. It is important for first time launch, and the checkbox is a way to limit it to the first time only.
Perhaps, check the checkbox by default so that it is limited to the first time.
Softening the wording of the message might be a good idea. "Welcome to Inkcape. Inkscape's functionality can be extended by installing and configuring various other applications and scripts. Some of these extensions are not installed. Please see /path/to/extension.log for installation instructions."
Maybe a "view extension log" button on this dialog and in the preferences too?
Aaron Spike
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:56:03 -0800 (PST), Bryce Harrington <bryce@...260...> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Ted Gould wrote:
[extensions warning and logging]
This is already in the codebase, but unfortunately there isn't alot of text for the warnings. I'm hoping to get this into the .inx files before the release, but atleast there is much more information than there was previously -- even if it isn't has helpful as it could be.
I'm really unsure about the dialog that pops up on startup warning about extensions. I think this is going to unnecessarily freak out a lot of users, who will conclude something is drastically wrong, when in reality the problem is not abnormal. I'm not sure what the best approach is, but we really need to put some thought into this.
Just use a less aggressive wording in the warning. But the warning itself IS needed. I'm tired of the endless bug reports "cannot import EPS", now people will have some way to figure this out themselves.
participants (9)
-
unknown＠example.com -
Alan Horkan -
Arpad Biro -
Bob Jamison -
Bryce Harrington -
bulia byak -
Jon Phillips -
Ted Gould -
vellum