donations, Flattr ?
Hi Friends, A recent message from a happy Inkscape user on IF (http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18639) wonders if Inkscape should have a Flattr account? Although this is the first I've heard of Flattr, and I'm not sure if Inkscape's license, mission, etc. will permit; I'm curious myself. I thought it would be worth asking about :-) Should or could Inkscape use this kind of fundraising? (Flattr: https://flattr.com/)
Thanks, brynn
We should use any and all non-competing methods. If I could get us a Patreon account, I think we'd do that too.
Other people's thoughts?
Martin,
On 2 April 2015 at 20:09, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Friends, A recent message from a happy Inkscape user on IF (http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18639) wonders if Inkscape should have a Flattr account? Although this is the first I've heard of Flattr, and I'm not sure if Inkscape's license, mission, etc. will permit; I'm curious myself. I thought it would be worth asking about :-) Should or could Inkscape use this kind of fundraising? (Flattr: https://flattr.com/)
Thanks, brynn
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 11:58:08PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
We should use any and all non-competing methods. If I could get us a Patreon account, I think we'd do that too.
Other people's thoughts?
Sure, if someone's willing to set up these accounts, it can't hurt, right? A lot of them are going to be just nickels and dimes, and some may have largish fees, but these are concerns for the donors.
Fwiw, I used Flattr a couple years ago and personally found it rather tedious. But to each their own.
Bryce
Martin,
On 2 April 2015 at 20:09, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Friends, A recent message from a happy Inkscape user on IF (http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18639) wonders if Inkscape should have a Flattr account? Although this is the first I've heard of Flattr, and I'm not sure if Inkscape's license, mission, etc. will permit; I'm curious myself. I thought it would be worth asking about :-) Should or could Inkscape use this kind of fundraising? (Flattr: https://flattr.com/)
Thanks, brynn
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Fwiw, I used Flattr a couple years ago and personally found it rather tedious. But to each their own.
Bryce
Which side did you use? Were you doing the donating (Flattr-ing) or receiving the donations?
From this: https://flattr.com/catalog/software, I see that GIMP has a
Flattr account. I wonder if anyone knows (or can ask) what their experience is?
I actually don't know if there are any fees for doing this, but I'll try to read and learn more about it. What I'm not sure about yet, is where do the donations go? The Inkscape Fund?
Or should this be used more for specific projects, like funded development? Maybe like setting aside the donations for programming native animation, for example?
I'll try and learn more about it. Although I'm probably not the best person to manage the account(s)?
Anyway, thanks for your comments :-)
brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 2:05 AM To: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Cc: "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...>; "Inkscape-Devel" Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] donations, Flattr ?
On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 11:58:08PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
We should use any and all non-competing methods. If I could get us a Patreon account, I think we'd do that too.
Other people's thoughts?
Sure, if someone's willing to set up these accounts, it can't hurt, right? A lot of them are going to be just nickels and dimes, and some may have largish fees, but these are concerns for the donors.
Fwiw, I used Flattr a couple years ago and personally found it rather tedious. But to each their own.
Bryce
Martin,
On 2 April 2015 at 20:09, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Friends, A recent message from a happy Inkscape user on IF (http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18639) wonders if Inkscape should have a Flattr account? Although this is the first I've heard of Flattr, and I'm not sure if Inkscape's license, mission, etc. will permit; I'm curious myself. I thought it would be worth asking about :-) Should or could Inkscape use this kind of fundraising? (Flattr: https://flattr.com/)
Thanks, brynn
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Aaahhh....well I see from their TOU, the Flattr takes 10% of the donations that the site owner (account) receives. That seems like a hefty chunk, when considering these are called "microdonations".
And it looks like Patreon takes 5% for themselves, and additional 2 to 5% for credit card fees. And there are some fees for using PayPal too.
I'd be willing to *help* with these -- like maintaining the webpages, moderating comments, if that's needed. But I certainly don't have the info needed to set up the accounts, or arrange where donations are received.
All best, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 2:05 AM To: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Cc: "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...>; "Inkscape-Devel" Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] donations, Flattr ?
On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 11:58:08PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
We should use any and all non-competing methods. If I could get us a Patreon account, I think we'd do that too.
Other people's thoughts?
Sure, if someone's willing to set up these accounts, it can't hurt, right? A lot of them are going to be just nickels and dimes, and some may have largish fees, but these are concerns for the donors.
Fwiw, I used Flattr a couple years ago and personally found it rather tedious. But to each their own.
Bryce
Martin,
On 2 April 2015 at 20:09, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Friends, A recent message from a happy Inkscape user on IF (http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18639) wonders if Inkscape should have a Flattr account? Although this is the first I've heard of Flattr, and I'm not sure if Inkscape's license, mission, etc. will permit; I'm curious myself. I thought it would be worth asking about :-) Should or could Inkscape use this kind of fundraising? (Flattr: https://flattr.com/)
Thanks, brynn
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Please read this insightful article before deciding what to do:
Problems and Strategies in Financing Voluntary Free Software Projects Benjamin Mako Hill http://mako.cc
http://mako.cc/writing/funding_volunteers/funding_volunteers.html
On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 1:07 AM, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Aaahhh....well I see from their TOU, the Flattr takes 10% of the donations that the site owner (account) receives. That seems like a hefty chunk, when considering these are called "microdonations".
And it looks like Patreon takes 5% for themselves, and additional 2 to 5% for credit card fees. And there are some fees for using PayPal too.
I'd be willing to *help* with these -- like maintaining the webpages, moderating comments, if that's needed. But I certainly don't have the info needed to set up the accounts, or arrange where donations are received.
All best, brynn
From: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 2:05 AM To: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Cc: "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...>; "Inkscape-Devel" Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] donations, Flattr ?
On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 11:58:08PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
We should use any and all non-competing methods. If I could get us a Patreon account, I think we'd do that too.
Other people's thoughts?
Sure, if someone's willing to set up these accounts, it can't hurt, right? A lot of them are going to be just nickels and dimes, and some may have largish fees, but these are concerns for the donors.
Fwiw, I used Flattr a couple years ago and personally found it rather tedious. But to each their own.
Bryce
Martin,
On 2 April 2015 at 20:09, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Friends, A recent message from a happy Inkscape user on IF (http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18639) wonders if Inkscape should have a Flattr account? Although this is the first I've heard of Flattr, and I'm not sure if Inkscape's license, mission, etc. will permit; I'm curious myself. I thought it would be worth asking about :-) Should or could Inkscape use this kind of fundraising? (Flattr: https://flattr.com/)
Thanks, brynn
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Hi Felipe,
this is a long reply. Thanks for posting the link.
On Sat, 2015-04-04 at 08:06 -0300, Felipe Sanches wrote:
Problems and Strategies in Financing Voluntary Free Software Projects Benjamin Mako Hill
I've got massive respect for Mako, we used to hang out at Grendel's back when he was here in Boston. But his above treatise is one sided. It goes to great lengths to explain why the organisational structures of projects should stay volunteer based (which I do agree with) but doesn't make it clear the difference between inderviduals, companies or the stratification of organisation as projects interact.
Nor does the work touch one two important factors that Free Software projects fail to address; one being the commercial vacuum left to be filled with less trustworthy and reputationally unstable organisations. Gnu and the FSF fall massively in this camp. And the one I'm most concerned with which is User Involvement.
We damn our users when we don't provide them with a meaningful way for their contributions to be effectively utilized in the project. Not only do we say that the majority of our users shouldn't help, but that they shouldn't really have any sort of say in how things are done. Because the only thing we're interested in is Time. If you've got time, then you've got a say. Inkscape is actually much better than a lot of projects when it comes to listening to users, it's just not yet the sort of project that connects with users.
So getting back to the original issues of paying volunteers. Paying someone changes their relationship, if I pay Bryce to do something, then our relationship changes somewhat. If Inkscape pays Bryce, then that relationship changes from volunteer to contractor or possibly employee. So the dangers are we can't have huge vendors employing everyone because that imparts control away from the project's volunteer leadership and we can't have InkscapeTheProject simply hiring or paying people without loosing that volunteer relationship.
The Project has wisely consented to spending money on events first. It's a good way to limit the amount of relationship changing effect it has.
But that doesn't mean we won't be looking for and exploring the many new methods of both raising money, involving users and spending it on people's labour. Because we do our Free Software industry no favours by not exploring the different mechanisms to improve how and /why/ we do these projects.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 12:30:29PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
Hi Felipe,
this is a long reply. Thanks for posting the link.
On Sat, 2015-04-04 at 08:06 -0300, Felipe Sanches wrote:
Problems and Strategies in Financing Voluntary Free Software Projects Benjamin Mako Hill
I've got massive respect for Mako, we used to hang out at Grendel's back when he was here in Boston. But his above treatise is one sided. It goes to great lengths to explain why the organisational structures of projects should stay volunteer based (which I do agree with) but doesn't make it clear the difference between inderviduals, companies or the stratification of organisation as projects interact.
There's some good observations in there - of particular note:
Another related model is to pay programmers to do work that participants recognize that no volunteer can do... Features that have remained on a todo-list and that are widely recognized as important are good candidates for strategic funding. Widely advertising feature requests and then only funding unimplemented requests can also be effective. However, each these suggestions can run the negative risk that people not fix a problem or address an important issue if they think that, eventually, they or someone else might get paid to do it.
In the Inkscape funded development model, we have a deliberate delay put in between when a proposal is made, and when it can be funded, for precisely this reason.
Nor does the work touch one two important factors that Free Software projects fail to address; one being the commercial vacuum left to be filled with less trustworthy and reputationally unstable organisations. Gnu and the FSF fall massively in this camp.
I'm starting to come around to this belief myself. There exist niches where Inkscape could play a huge role, but we don't have the resources to establish Inkscape there ourselves. This leaves a vacuum that can be exploited by hucksters and scammers to take advantage of people.
Bryce
And the one I'm most concerned with which is User Involvement.
We damn our users when we don't provide them with a meaningful way for their contributions to be effectively utilized in the project. Not only do we say that the majority of our users shouldn't help, but that they shouldn't really have any sort of say in how things are done. Because the only thing we're interested in is Time. If you've got time, then you've got a say. Inkscape is actually much better than a lot of projects when it comes to listening to users, it's just not yet the sort of project that connects with users.
So getting back to the original issues of paying volunteers. Paying someone changes their relationship, if I pay Bryce to do something, then our relationship changes somewhat. If Inkscape pays Bryce, then that relationship changes from volunteer to contractor or possibly employee. So the dangers are we can't have huge vendors employing everyone because that imparts control away from the project's volunteer leadership and we can't have InkscapeTheProject simply hiring or paying people without loosing that volunteer relationship.
The Project has wisely consented to spending money on events first. It's a good way to limit the amount of relationship changing effect it has.
But that doesn't mean we won't be looking for and exploring the many new methods of both raising money, involving users and spending it on people's labour. Because we do our Free Software industry no favours by not exploring the different mechanisms to improve how and /why/ we do these projects.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
2015-04-05 0:21 GMT+02:00 Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...>:
On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 12:30:29PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
On Sat, 2015-04-04 at 08:06 -0300, Felipe Sanches wrote:
Problems and Strategies in Financing Voluntary Free Software Projects Benjamin Mako Hill
I've got massive respect for Mako, we used to hang out at Grendel's back when he was here in Boston. But his above treatise is one sided. It goes to great lengths to explain why the organisational structures of projects should stay volunteer based (which I do agree with) but doesn't make it clear the difference between inderviduals, companies or the stratification of organisation as projects interact.
There's some good observations in there - of particular note:
Another related model is to pay programmers to do work that participants recognize that no volunteer can do... Features that have remained on a todo-list and that are widely recognized as important are good candidates for strategic funding. Widely advertising feature requests and then only funding unimplemented requests can also be effective. However, each these suggestions can run the negative risk that people not fix a problem or address an important issue if they think that, eventually, they or someone else might get paid to do it.In the Inkscape funded development model, we have a deliberate delay put in between when a proposal is made, and when it can be funded, for precisely this reason.
I wonder to what extent this really happens, i.e. how many people are deliberately delaying their volunteering due to the prospect of collecting a feature bounty.
I guess one way to investigate this problem is to look at the effect of GSoC. Are we getting more or less volunteers because of that initiative? Are some people deliberately not volunteering because they prefer to do their work as a GSoC project and get paid?
Regards, Krzysztof
On 7 April 2015 at 21:01, Krzysztof Kosiński <tweenk.pl@...400...> wrote:
I guess one way to investigate this problem is to look at the effect of GSoC. Are we getting more or less volunteers because of that initiative? Are some people deliberately not volunteering because they prefer to do their work as a GSoC project and get paid?
One would think the prospect of spending some time getting to know the code and the people who will approve the GSoC request would be a good idea. But this may be forward thinking and some people might play at developing rather than commit to it in a more passionate way.
Martin,
participants (5)
-
Bryce Harrington -
Brynn -
Felipe Sanches -
Krzysztof Kosiński -
Martin Owens