Re: [Inkscape-devel] Proposal: Merging Open Clipart Library into Inkscape
I haven't fully understood what you mean when you say 'merge OCAL in Inkscape'. If you mean simply to provide a bundled clipart library with inkscape (like most drawing programs have) I agree completely to that.
If this is the case, we could also easily create a new tool which will show a preview of all the cliparts and will insert a selected one into the current drawing. Such tool would make Inkscape easier to use for diagram drawing, for example.
However, it is clear that when you say merging you also refer to OCAL infrastructure (like ccHost). Did you actually mean that the Inkscape team will take responsibility for OCAL and host it as well?
- Spyros Blanas
Bryce Harrington wrote:
Hi all,
This past year, the Open Clip Art Library has been both very successful, and very unsuccessful. From the standpoint of collecting clipart, it's been going like gang-busters, and currently has an incoming queue bursting with some very nice work.
Unfortunately, it's also suffered from not having a sufficient development community behind it. By and large the project is simple: Just build a collection of clipart. However, the sheer quantity we gain poses its own set of technical challenges. There's also little issues like keyword translations, searching, detection of invalid SVG, etc. etc. On top of that, we've also been maintaining our own infrastruction (wiki, website, mailing list, accounts, etc.)
The idea has been floated to merge OCAL back into Inkscape. OCAL was originally a spin-off from Inkscape, with the hope that we'd gain participation from other projects like OpenOffice, Sodipodi, KDE, etc. Unfortunately, that never really turned out, and it's mainly just been a few of us Inkscapers plus people not really associated with drawing program projects.
Two other reasons why I think this proposal makes sense at this time: First, with Inkscape joining the Software Freedom Conservancy, it makes sense to bring OCAL under that umbrella as well. Second, with us looking at new hosting providers for Inkscape, it would be worthwhile to include provisions for OCAL, as well.
OCAL will benefit from this merge in that it will consolidate the infrastructure administration into Inkscape, and will hopefully make it easier for Inkscape community members to work on clipart technology too. OCAL is in the process of bringing online a new tool called ccHost, which is a powerful tool for managing community-contributed media (it was originally designed for music, but it's in process of being adapted for handling clipart); Inkscape will benefit from having access to this tool as well - which could prove useful for managing community submitted screenshots, example files, tutorials, palettes, and other such things. Inkscape also gains by increasing the scope of its community, and of course gains the clipart library itself.
Please let me know what you think of this proposal, assuming you've read this far. ;-)
Bryce
On Sun, Jul 09, 2006 at 10:52:51AM +0300, Spyros Blanas wrote:
I haven't fully understood what you mean when you say 'merge OCAL in Inkscape'. If you mean simply to provide a bundled clipart library with inkscape (like most drawing programs have) I agree completely to that.
If this is the case, we could also easily create a new tool which will show a preview of all the cliparts and will insert a selected one into the current drawing. Such tool would make Inkscape easier to use for diagram drawing, for example.
However, it is clear that when you say merging you also refer to OCAL infrastructure (like ccHost). Did you actually mean that the Inkscape team will take responsibility for OCAL and host it as well?
Correct, the whole project would merge. We can continue to provide "http://www.openclipart.org" as a redirect to the appropriate area of the Inkscape site, so links don't break and such. But the mailing list, IRC channels, CVS modules, and file downloads would be moved over into the Inkscape infrastructure. The bugs in OCAL's bugzilla would be moved into Inkscape's tracker. The openclipart wiki would get moved into the Inkscape wiki. Whatever portions of the openclipart.org site that don't get moved into ccHost, would be merged into the inkscape website.
Bryce
On Sun, 2006-07-09 at 20:17 -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:
On Sun, Jul 09, 2006 at 10:52:51AM +0300, Spyros Blanas wrote:
I haven't fully understood what you mean when you say 'merge OCAL in Inkscape'. If you mean simply to provide a bundled clipart library with inkscape (like most drawing programs have) I agree completely to that.
If this is the case, we could also easily create a new tool which will show a preview of all the cliparts and will insert a selected one into the current drawing. Such tool would make Inkscape easier to use for diagram drawing, for example.
However, it is clear that when you say merging you also refer to OCAL infrastructure (like ccHost). Did you actually mean that the Inkscape team will take responsibility for OCAL and host it as well?
Correct, the whole project would merge. We can continue to provide "http://www.openclipart.org" as a redirect to the appropriate area of the Inkscape site, so links don't break and such. But the mailing list, IRC channels, CVS modules, and file downloads would be moved over into the Inkscape infrastructure. The bugs in OCAL's bugzilla would be moved into Inkscape's tracker. The openclipart wiki would get moved into the Inkscape wiki. Whatever portions of the openclipart.org site that don't get moved into ccHost, would be merged into the inkscape website.
Bryce
I think that merging the two projects *completely* is not a good idea. While I can see the benefits of merging some of the infrastructure to gain new eyes and developers, I think that the off-topic discussion of Open Clip Art Library on Inkscape channels (chat, wiki, web, lists) and vice-versa, and the complete blurring between the two is problematic. If anything, Inkscape has been so successful because it has had a clear vision of becoming a compliant SVG editor. However, by completely merging the two, I fear that we will harm develop of both projects.
I think that another plan which would work well would be to:
1.) get ccHost working with SVG and switch over OCAL to this 2.) clarify and simplify the mission of Open Clip Art Library (ie, no more monthly package releases, and only have the community-based ccHost site that deals with clipart) 3.) cross-brand Open Clip Art Library and Inkscape more between the sites and in the documentation to gain more contributors
Anyhow, I can see where Bryce's proposal is good, but really think we should maintain the ccHost installation still at openclipart.org. That is my main concern with the proposal: clarity of vision and progress.
Anyhow, with that being said, is there anyone on the Inkscape lists that would like to help the noble cause of getting SVG files working in ccHost: http://openclipart.org/wiki/index.php/CcHost ?
I can help anyone who wants to help get this up and running.
I'm curious to others thoughts on my concerns, etc.
Jon
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Jon Phillips wrote:
I think that merging the two projects *completely* is not a good idea. While I can see the benefits of merging some of the infrastructure to gain new eyes and developers, I think that the off-topic discussion of Open Clip Art Library on Inkscape channels (chat, wiki, web, lists) and vice-versa, and the complete blurring between the two is problematic. If anything, Inkscape has been so successful because it has had a clear vision of becoming a compliant SVG editor. However, by completely merging the two, I fear that we will harm develop of both projects.
I think I agree with Rejon here and I'm pretty much an Inkscape zealot :p My feeling is that a *complete* merge would increase the noise in many areas: bugzilla, chat, lists. Imagine as a worst case scenario half of the Inkscape bug tracker filled with OCAL entries.
I think that another plan which would work well would be to:
1.) get ccHost working with SVG and switch over OCAL to this
Definitely. Having ccHost working, it can be deployed afterwards in any other place, benefiting from the experience. I think having one single ccHost install with 10.000 clipart images and 20 Inkscape tutorials, the tutorials would be totally undiscoverable.
2.) clarify and simplify the mission of Open Clip Art Library (ie, no more monthly package releases, and only have the community-based ccHost site that deals with clipart)
Completely agree, drop the OCAL packages, maybe make them an optional add-on to the Inkscape releases (only with the SVG version, PNG thumbnails are not needed in those packages).
3.) cross-brand Open Clip Art Library and Inkscape more between the sites and in the documentation to gain more contributors
Anyhow, I can see where Bryce's proposal is good, but really think we should maintain the ccHost installation still at openclipart.org. That is my main concern with the proposal: clarity of vision and progress.
I want to say two more things:
- the domain name, openclipart.org has accumulated weight over the course of the last few years in search engines and is linked from many places, it became a valuable asset, so I think is useful to keep it.
- I am too lazy to run any stats and see real values, but he had some (a minority) contributors at OCAL using other software, like Illustrator (I used to complain about their huge file sizes) so I wonder how a complete merge would impact those people: attract them to Inkscape or alienate from OCAL?
On Mon, Jul 10, 2006 at 09:49:47AM +0300, Nicu Buculei (OCAL) wrote:
Jon Phillips wrote:
I think that merging the two projects *completely* is not a good idea. If anything, Inkscape has been so successful because it has had a clear vision of becoming a compliant SVG editor. However, by completely merging the two, I fear that we will harm develop of both projects.
I think I agree with Rejon here and I'm pretty much an Inkscape zealot :p My feeling is that a *complete* merge would increase the noise in many
Well, in my estimate what we're dealing with is a dying project - in fact the thread that started this whole discussion in the first place was a question about if we're dead or not. We get questions almost daily - will there be more tarball releases? has there been any progress with ccHost? is this project still alive?
I would like to not see openclipart die out as a project. I think it's a good idea and has caught on well with artists. However, there aren't enough people actively working on it - heck, there aren't really even enough people to put in the time to get others working actively on it. I find most of my own ocal time is spent doing infrastructure work that is literally duplicate work for Inkscape (wiki de-spam, account setup, etc.)
We've been saying for months, "Everything will work well once ccHost is up." Rejon and I have put time in on it, but it's a much bigger effort than we have time for, so we've been hoping others would chip in and help. We've had a few people express interest in working on it, yet here we are months later and we seem no closer to having it ready to replace the old tools than before.
I still think the idea of having ccHost is great, and should be done. However I am skeptical that it will actually *get* done. I don't think we can do it alone.
Bryce
Bryce Harrington write :
(...) I would like to not see openclipart die out as a project. I think it's a good idea and has caught on well with artists. However, there aren't enough people actively working on it - heck, there aren't really even enough people to put in the time to get others working actively on it. I find most of my own ocal time is spent doing infrastructure work that is literally duplicate work for Inkscape (wiki de-spam, account setup, etc.)
Hi,
Sorry to speak about wikipedia or wikicommon again but we should see this point : why wikipedia and wikicommon have a lot of contributors ? I think because they use completely the wiki.
Maybe the main page of openclipart should be a wiki... See http://commons.wikimedia.org In the left menu of OCAL we keep the search bar, upload/download single clipart or package, news, faq in all languages... We give the possibility to users to modify pages in their languages (some won't be open for security), to add beautiful pages, to download and manage clipart (best colors, forms, metadatas) like we do in wikicommon.
Patricia
Patricia wrote:
Sorry to speak about wikipedia or wikicommon again but we should see this point : why wikipedia and wikicommon have a lot of contributors ? I think because they use completely the wiki.
I think the real reason is because the barrier to entry to become a contributor ti wikipedia and wikicommon is very low. In your example it happens to be a wiki, which by definition is the CMS with the lowest barrier to entry. Being at OCAL from almost the beginning, I remember Bryce always advocating for a low barrier to entry in both OCAL and Inkscape, we tried all the time to keep it low, but it appears we reached a limit.
Maybe the main page of openclipart should be a wiki... See http://commons.wikimedia.org
From my limited experience with ccHost, once having it working it should give a barrier to entry for new contributors as low as a wiki but with added features (ratings, sorting, etc.)
In the left menu of OCAL we keep the search bar, upload/download single clipart or package, news, faq in all languages... We give the possibility to users to modify pages in their languages (some won't be open for security), to add beautiful pages, to download and manage clipart (best colors, forms, metadatas) like we do in wikicommon.
Hi, I completely agree with Patricia, Openclipart should be a wiki project as open as wikimedia is, so people willing to contribute new cliparts and improve existing ones (metadata, colors, enhancements and corrections of badly formed SVG) have the possibility to "stop by" and help. I contacted Jon Phillips a couple of months ago, and said that I want to help, but at the time the question of migrating to CCHOST was at its beginning and we decided to wait until the new web would be online with SVG support. Only then I could be of help. Unfortunately my PHP skills are almost inexitant so there is not much I can do to help the project right now... But once the website will be ready, I can spend some time (1-2 hours) almost everyday, maintaining and improving its content.
Openclipart is IMHO one of the best projects around, and I personally saw its great impact in the education field in third world countries (Mauritanian and Nigerian teachers using some of the cliparts in self-made brochures to teach children reading and/or drawing, small companies using cliparts of buttons in their websites because they cannot afford commercial cliparts, etc...) I'd hate to see Openclipart die... And I think I'm not the only one...
Mourad
Bryce Harrington write :
(...) I would like to not see openclipart die out as a project. I think it's a good idea and has caught on well with artists. However, there aren't enough people actively working on it - heck, there aren't really even enough people to put in the time to get others working actively on it. I find most of my own ocal time is spent doing infrastructure work that is literally duplicate work for Inkscape (wiki de-spam, account setup, etc.)
Hi,
Sorry to speak about wikipedia or wikicommon again but we should see this point : why wikipedia and wikicommon have a lot of contributors ? I think because they use completely the wiki.
Maybe the main page of openclipart should be a wiki... See http://commons.wikimedia.org In the left menu of OCAL we keep the search bar, upload/download single clipart or package, news, faq in all languages... We give the possibility to users to modify pages in their languages (some won't be open for security), to add beautiful pages, to download and manage clipart (best colors, forms, metadatas) like we do in wikicommon.
Patricia _______________________________________________ clipart mailing list clipart@...626... http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/clipart
momo wrote:
Hi, I completely agree with Patricia, Openclipart should be a wiki project as open as wikimedia is, so people willing to contribute new cliparts and improve existing ones (metadata, colors, enhancements and corrections of badly formed SVG) have the possibility to "stop by" and help.
I agree it should be wiki-like for open collaboration, and this is the intention of ccHost, but just a wiki is not good enough, take Wikimedia as an example, can you find a better way to display my "ornamental" playing cards than this? ((without manually creating a special page inside the wiki) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=ornamental+nicu&...
--- Jon Phillips <jon@...235...> wrote:
On Sun, 2006-07-09 at 20:17 -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:
On Sun, Jul 09, 2006 at 10:52:51AM +0300, Spyros Blanas wrote:
I haven't fully understood what you mean when you say 'merge OCAL
in
Inkscape'. If you mean simply to provide a bundled clipart
library with
inkscape (like most drawing programs have) I agree completely to
that.
If this is the case, we could also easily create a new tool which
will
show a preview of all the cliparts and will insert a selected one
into
the current drawing. Such tool would make Inkscape easier to use
for
diagram drawing, for example.
However, it is clear that when you say merging you also refer to
OCAL
infrastructure (like ccHost). Did you actually mean that the
Inkscape
team will take responsibility for OCAL and host it as well?
Correct, the whole project would merge. We can continue to provide "http://www.openclipart.org" as a redirect to the appropriate area
of
the Inkscape site, so links don't break and such. But the mailing
list,
IRC channels, CVS modules, and file downloads would be moved over
into
the Inkscape infrastructure. The bugs in OCAL's bugzilla would be
moved
into Inkscape's tracker. The openclipart wiki would get moved into
the
Inkscape wiki. Whatever portions of the openclipart.org site that
don't
get moved into ccHost, would be merged into the inkscape website.
Bryce
I think that merging the two projects *completely* is not a good idea. While I can see the benefits of merging some of the infrastructure to gain new eyes and developers, I think that the off-topic discussion of Open Clip Art Library on Inkscape channels (chat, wiki, web, lists) and vice-versa, and the complete blurring between the two is problematic. If anything, Inkscape has been so successful because it has had a clear vision of becoming a compliant SVG editor. However, by completely merging the two, I fear that we will harm develop of both projects.
I think that another plan which would work well would be to:
1.) get ccHost working with SVG and switch over OCAL to this 2.) clarify and simplify the mission of Open Clip Art Library (ie, no more monthly package releases, and only have the community-based ccHost site that deals with clipart) 3.) cross-brand Open Clip Art Library and Inkscape more between the sites and in the documentation to gain more contributors
Anyhow, I can see where Bryce's proposal is good, but really think we should maintain the ccHost installation still at openclipart.org. That is my main concern with the proposal: clarity of vision and progress.
Anyhow, with that being said, is there anyone on the Inkscape lists that would like to help the noble cause of getting SVG files working in ccHost: http://openclipart.org/wiki/index.php/CcHost ?
I can help anyone who wants to help get this up and running.
I'm curious to others thoughts on my concerns, etc.
Jon
Agree with pretty much everything Jon said there, think theres a danger of diltuing both projects if you integrate too tightly.
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On Mon, Jul 10, 2006 at 11:33:25AM -0700, John Cliff wrote:
I think that merging the two projects *completely* is not a good idea.
Agree with pretty much everything Jon said there, think theres a danger of diltuing both projects if you integrate too tightly.
Okay, concensus seems against merging the projects. I'll withdraw the proposal. Maybe this has stirred up things enough that there'll be sufficient activity to keep openclipart.org alive.
Bryce
participants (7)
-
Bryce Harrington -
John Cliff -
Jon Phillips -
momo -
Nicu Buculei (OCAL) -
Patricia -
Spyros Blanas