NEW: style swatches and labels
* The somewhat cryptic "F:" and "S:" labels in the selected style indicator (at the left end of the statusbar) and in tool's style swatches are now spelled out as Fill: and Stroke:. We believe this makes the interface, even if less space-efficient, a bit more friendly for newbies. [[Note that I'm still not completely sold on this idea, but decided to try it out. Please voice your opinions.]]
* The style swatches at the right end of object-creating tools' control bars now open the Preferences page of the corresponding tool when clicked. Also, now these swatches display a tooltip explaining its purpose (e.g. "Style of new rectangles", "Style of new calligraphic strokes", etc.)
On Thursday 15 February 2007 22:03:09 bulia byak wrote:
* The somewhat cryptic "F:" and "S:" labels in the selectedstyle indicator (at the left end of the statusbar) and in tool's style swatches are now spelled out as Fill: and Stroke:. We believe this makes the interface, even if less space-efficient, a bit more friendly for newbies. [[Note that I'm still not completely sold on this idea, but decided to try it out. Please voice your opinions.]]
I like the idea!
* The style swatches at the right end of object-creating tools'control bars now open the Preferences page of the corresponding tool when clicked. Also, now these swatches display a tooltip explaining its purpose (e.g. "Style of new rectangles", "Style of new calligraphic strokes", etc.)
This one too.
Just a two proposals: 1. Can we try adding two boxes like this [x] to the left of this widget. One for removing stroke and another one for removing fill. It will unclutter RMB menu (which, by the way, isn't consistant with fill/stroke dialog - menu says "Remove stroke", but dialog says "No Paint") 2. Make width of field, where stroke thickness is presented, always have at least 5-6 numerical places. It's somehow unnerving, that shrinking and extanding of field... 3. This one is related to your second intervention. It would be much better IMHO to code RMB click to act like LMB + "Take from selection" (from preferences). This way we economize mouse clicks and speed up working. Did I say two?! :)
Regards, Vlada
On 2/14/07, Vladimir Savic <vlada@...1658...> wrote:
Just a two proposals: 1. Can we try adding two boxes like this [x] to the left of this widget. One for removing stroke and another one for removing fill. It will unclutter RMB menu (which, by the way, isn't consistant with fill/stroke dialog - menu says "Remove stroke", but dialog says "No Paint")
You can just middle-click the swatch to remove fill/stroke.
2. Make width of field, where stroke thickness is presented, always have atleast 5-6 numerical places. It's somehow unnerving, that shrinking and extanding of field...
Why should it be unnerving? Most of the time people use standard widths - 1, 2, etc. so for them it would be a waste of space and an annoyance to always see 1.0000, 2.0000 etc.
3. This one is related to your second intervention. It would be much betterIMHO to code RMB click to act like LMB + "Take from selection" (from preferences). This way we economize mouse clicks and speed up working.
Yes, a right-click menu to that swatch would be a good thing, both to make it easier to switch the mode, and to help users to understand what this thing is for.
On Thursday 15 February 2007 23:49:04 bulia byak wrote:
On 2/14/07, Vladimir Savic <vlada@...1658...> wrote:
Just a two proposals: 1. Can we try adding two boxes like this [x] to the left of this widget. One for removing stroke and another one for removing fill. It will unclutter RMB menu (which, by the way, isn't consistant with fill/stroke dialog - menu says "Remove stroke", but dialog says "No Paint")
You can just middle-click the swatch to remove fill/stroke.
Hmmm.... I've been using this great app since .40 version, but have never thought it is possible acheiving it this way?! Great for this feature exists, but I really think it would be much more obvious doing color discarding like I've described. Just my thoughts. Corel does it in similar fashion, but somehow different, Illustrator isn't worth mentioning at this particular topic. As of Freehand, I have no clue what's their way of dealing with it.
Anyway, inconsistancy stays... ;)
2. Make width of field, where stroke thickness is presented,always have at least 5-6 numerical places. It's somehow unnerving, that shrinking and extanding of field...
Why should it be unnerving? Most of the time people use standard widths - 1, 2, etc. so for them it would be a waste of space and an annoyance to always see 1.0000, 2.0000 etc.
Not like that. I've ment something more like:
Fill: [alphaFFFFFFF|FFFFFFFFFFFF] Stroke: [alphaSSSS|SSSSSSSS]___1.0
I'll attach mockup. Even I can't understand my own writing. :)
3. This one is related to your second intervention. It would bemuch better IMHO to code RMB click to act like LMB + "Take from selection" (from preferences). This way we economize mouse clicks and speed up working.
Yes, a right-click menu to that swatch would be a good thing, both to make it easier to switch the mode, and to help users to understand what this thing is for.
I've told you. Just kidding. Great new feature, indeed...
Vlada
On 2/15/07, Vladimir Savic <vlada@...1658...> wrote:
Hmmm.... I've been using this great app since .40 version, but have never thought it is possible acheiving it this way?! Great for this feature exists, but I really think it would be much more obvious doing color discarding like I've described.
That's why it's not only middle-click but also in the right-click menu - to make it more discoverable.
Anyway, I remember we have a RFE to add a "no color" swatch to the palette that would be usable to remove paint from either fill or stroke. I think this solution would satisfy us both: you get a way to do this with single click (ok, shift+click for stroke), and I won't have to further clutter the already cluttered style indicator :)
Not like that. I've ment something more like:
Fill: [alphaFFFFFFF|FFFFFFFFFFFF] Stroke: [alphaSSSS|SSSSSSSS]___1.0
I'll attach mockup. Even I can't understand my own writing. :)
So, always leave a fixed empty space there? Why is this better?
On Friday 16 February 2007 16:46:42 you wrote:
On 2/15/07, Vladimir Savic <vlada@...1658...> wrote:
Hmmm.... I've been using this great app since .40 version, but have never thought it is possible acheiving it this way?! Great for this feature exists, but I really think it would be much more obvious doing color discarding like I've described.
That's why it's not only middle-click but also in the right-click menu
- to make it more discoverable.
Anyway, I remember we have a RFE to add a "no color" swatch to the palette that would be usable to remove paint from either fill or stroke. I think this solution would satisfy us both: you get a way to do this with single click (ok, shift+click for stroke), and I won't have to further clutter the already cluttered style indicator :)
You mean Corel-like style?! I don't like it even if I think it's the best vector editing program out there (10+ years of experience). Just for a note (if you bring this idea alive): "No color" swatch "color" would need to be visible even if you scroll palette right or left -- always at the first position in the palette. (Corel TM) :)
It wont be cluttered. It would be much more useful. I prefere doing everything possible using only one hand. But I guess it's a matter of taste (This doesn't mean I gave up the idea :) )...
Not like that. I've ment something more like:
Fill: [alphaFFFFFFF|FFFFFFFFFFFF] Stroke: [alphaSSSS|SSSSSSSS]___1.0
I'll attach mockup. Even I can't understand my own writing. :)
So, always leave a fixed empty space there? Why is this better?
Take a look at the screenshots I've provided once again. Stroke width I'm usually dealing with are 0.5, 1, 1.5 and 2. These are mainly one character numbers and I really have problem clicking right at them. "1" is literally 2mm wide and 3mm tall (speaking of real-world on-screen appearance) of the character.
Whole style indicator could be much better organized. Hints: 1) "Make ... opaque" menu option should not even be in the menu if alpha is already at 255 2) The same option should appear only on left side of widget if alpha is less then 255. 3) CTRL+mouse click and drag left/right could increase/decrease alpha of selected color from 0-255. Of course, there must be trashold of some 10-15 screen pixels before this option gets active 4) Double click could bring fill and stroke dialog visible (that's why I've proposed trashold) 5) IMHO, layer options at status bar are outdated with perfectly useful layers dialog 6) I could possibly bring much more ideas... And please don't consider this to be "your program sucks" attitude, because it isn't. I love Inkscape and use it at daily basis. Great app! Just wanted to throw in some user (me) driven ideas. Mostly because I really avoid using Fill and Stroke dialog -- it takes 1/4 of my 1024x768 screen and that is just too much. Too many dialog open/close steps...
Vlada
On Feb 16, 2007, at 8:15 AM, Vladimir Savic wrote:
- IMHO, layer options at status bar are outdated with perfectly
useful layers dialog
Well... IMHO the status bar layer stuff is very good and useful. I'm using it all the time, and I'm the guy who coded up the actual layers dialog. It actually gives good status info on the layers of items as you select them. Thus I think it's still very appropriate for the status bar.
I'm getting my dev environment updated now (my Fink-based approach on the mac here kept me stuck at GTK+ 2.6, etc), and once that's done my first task is getting back on UI improvements.
I'll be attacking the toolbars first, then moving on to other things for dynamic layout and use efficiency. So the sort of feedback you're giving is very useful.
Thanks.
On Saturday 17 February 2007 18:28:05 Jon A. Cruz wrote:
On Feb 16, 2007, at 8:15 AM, Vladimir Savic wrote:
- IMHO, layer options at status bar are outdated with perfectly
useful layers dialog
Well... IMHO the status bar layer stuff is very good and useful. I'm using it all the time, and I'm the guy who coded up the actual layers dialog. It actually gives good status info on the layers of items as you select them. Thus I think it's still very appropriate for the status bar.
After a second thought, I must agree with you! For a full usefulness all we need there is "hide everything but active layer" button.
I'll be attacking the toolbars first, then moving on to other things for dynamic layout and use efficiency. So the sort of feedback you're giving is very useful.
Thanks.
No, thank you.
I appreciate your attention. Really.
I will be there when things start to happen. Believe me; I need this app for my graphic design studies. I gave a promise to myself that I'll use only FOSS to finish school jobs, and I intend to do so, really. And I have a lot of experience with commertial products (Adobe suite - 5+ years -- as of Photoshop 10+ probably, Corel - 10+ years Draw/Xara and Macromedia (2-3 years). ...and some rusty c++ coding skills (right now those fell down at the level of reading code, but I understand some basics of Inkscape internals).
I'll be glad/willing to help.
Vlada
On Feb 17, 2007, at 11:09 AM, Vladimir Savic wrote:
Well... IMHO the status bar layer stuff is very good and useful. I'm using it all the time, and I'm the guy who coded up the actual layers dialog. It actually gives good status info on the layers of items as you select them. Thus I think it's still very appropriate for the status bar.
After a second thought, I must agree with you! For a full usefulness all we need there is "hide everything but active layer" button.
Ooh. Sounds good.
Be sure to get an RFE entered to add that.
Though I'd not say "all we need," but rather "all we need to add" since I use it to see what layers things are on as I click on them, etc. Then I can know if I want to raise them up a level or down a level using keyboard or menu items (with no need to pull up the full dialog).
On Sunday 18 February 2007 20:38:54 Jon A. Cruz wrote:
On Feb 17, 2007, at 11:09 AM, Vladimir Savic wrote:
Well... IMHO the status bar layer stuff is very good and useful. I'm using it all the time, and I'm the guy who coded up the actual layers dialog. It actually gives good status info on the layers of items as you select them. Thus I think it's still very appropriate for the status bar.
After a second thought, I must agree with you! For a full usefulness all we need there is "hide everything but active layer" button.
Ooh. Sounds good.
Even more complex thing to do would (but not less interesting) be to "inactive layers to outline" -- for snapping and things.
Be sure to get an RFE entered to add that.
I'll try to... Speaking of witch... I'm not the person who speaks English very well, so filling so much indepandent RFEs about everything I've said in previous posts will take me more time than for you to implement them. :) That's why I usually throw them (my ideas) here on the list for everybody to comment them.
Though I'd not say "all we need," but rather "all we need to add"
What I've had writen seamed correct to me, but I'd had intention to say exacly what you've done... Sorry about it.
Vlada
Just a thought. is this where we can have a kill all styles button? something that removes all properties in style=""
very useful for tileclones and other management of paths meant to be referenced by <use>
On 2/15/07, bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> wrote:
* The somewhat cryptic "F:" and "S:" labels in the selectedstyle indicator (at the left end of the statusbar) and in tool's style swatches are now spelled out as Fill: and Stroke:. We believe this makes the interface, even if less space-efficient, a bit more friendly for newbies. [[Note that I'm still not completely sold on this idea, but decided to try it out. Please voice your opinions.]]
I agree it is more friendly for newbies, but I guess it is quite easy to figure out what are these letters with a few tries. The only problem I see is that words may be much longer in some languages, that means less space for the tips in the toolbar.
* The style swatches at the right end of object-creating tools'control bars now open the Preferences page of the corresponding tool when clicked. Also, now these swatches display a tooltip explaining its purpose (e.g. "Style of new rectangles", "Style of new calligraphic strokes", etc.)
Very good feature !
Romain
On 2007-February-15 , at 23:03 , bulia byak wrote:
* The somewhat cryptic "F:" and "S:" labels in the selectedstyle indicator (at the left end of the statusbar) and in tool's style swatches are now spelled out as Fill: and Stroke:. We believe this makes the interface, even if less space-efficient, a bit more friendly for newbies. [[Note that I'm still not completely sold on this idea, but decided to try it out. Please voice your opinions.]]
I think the redundancy between the status bar swatches and the tool's style bar swatches could be used in this case: use complete words in the tool's style and keep F and S in the status bar. Those are far away from each other but one easily spot them changing at the same time when fill or stroke is changed. Having complete words in one place helps to understand what they represent. It's not a perfect solution because fill and stroke swatches are not present in all tool's styles but it helps and does not take more of the precious space in the status bar (on a "classic" laptop screen with 1024x768 resolution, the messages in the status bar are already cut quite often). What do you think about this? Another thought thank come to mind regarding this redundancy is to move the status bar swatches at the end of the tool's style bar for all tools. I am not thinking at modifying all tool's style bars but at adding a new tool bar (with F and S swatches with complete label + opacity spin button and maybe a blur spin button) next to the tool's style's bar. I think there is ample room for it (even on a 1024x768 display) except maybe for the calligraphy tool but some spinbutton widths in this bar could be reduced. It will probably take some time for long time Inkscape users to adapt but I am including myself in those and I personally would prefer having more room in the status bar. Just a thought...
* The style swatches at the right end of object-creating tools'control bars now open the Preferences page of the corresponding tool when clicked. Also, now these swatches display a tooltip explaining its purpose (e.g. "Style of new rectangles", "Style of new calligraphic strokes", etc.)
JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/
On 2/16/07, jiho <jo.irisson@...400...> wrote:
I think the redundancy between the status bar swatches and the tool's style bar swatches could be used in this case:
Well, the point is, they aren't actually redundant :)
use complete words in the tool's style and keep F and S in the status bar.
I don't think making them different will really help the newbie user. I think it will just add another hard to explain weirdness.
Another thought thank come to mind regarding this redundancy is to move the status bar swatches at the end of the tool's style bar for all tools. I am not thinking at modifying all tool's style bars but at adding a new tool bar (with F and S swatches with complete label + opacity spin button and maybe a blur spin button) next to the tool's style's bar.
Yes, but, as I said before, this makes little sense until we have easily draggable and rearrangeable toolbars (something GTK is still missing, what a shame). Then we could have the current style indicator and the layers widget in small toolbars of their own that could be placed anywhere.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 8:43 AM, bulia byak wrote:
Yes, but, as I said before, this makes little sense until we have easily draggable and rearrangeable toolbars (something GTK is still missing, what a shame). Then we could have the current style indicator and the layers widget in small toolbars of their own that could be placed anywhere.
We're actually getting close to the rearrangeable aspect there.
Once the toolbars are fixed up, that's the next UI thing I was looking at. Of course, if anyone else is interested in this, I can point out all the key pieces ready and waiting to be hooked up.
On 2007-February-16 , at 17:43 , bulia byak wrote:
On 2/16/07, jiho <jo.irisson@...400...> wrote:
I think the redundancy between the status bar swatches and the tool's style bar swatches could be used in this case:
Well, the point is, they aren't actually redundant :)
Oh yes sorry indeed. I always used the swatches to change colors when I had something selected so I never noticed the difference.
Another thought thank come to mind regarding this redundancy is to move the status bar swatches at the end of the tool's style bar for all tools. I am not thinking at modifying all tool's style bars but at adding a new tool bar (with F and S swatches with complete label + opacity spin button and maybe a blur spin button) next to the tool's style's bar.
Yes, but, as I said before, this makes little sense until we have easily draggable and rearrangeable toolbars (something GTK is still missing, what a shame). Then we could have the current style indicator and the layers widget in small toolbars of their own that could be placed anywhere.
Yes indeed. Let's hope GTK will hire some students on such features for the SoC!
JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/
On 2/17/07, jiho wrote:
Yes, but, as I said before, this makes little sense until we have easily draggable and rearrangeable toolbars (something GTK is still missing, what a shame). Then we could have the current style indicator and the layers widget in small toolbars of their own that could be placed anywhere.
Yes indeed. Let's hope GTK will hire some students on such features for the SoC!
... or simply use Curly Ankles
http://curlyankles.sourceforge.net/widgets_toolbar.html
Alexandre
On Feb 17, 2007, at 8:02 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
... or simply use Curly Ankles
Interesting, but I might have some reservations of what problems it is targeting to solve (basing off of win32 API, etc). Also they way they are addressing some of the problems might not mesh well with what we need internally.
But for me the biggest issue at the moment would be its maturity (cross-platform, translations, sf stats, etc).
It does look like a nice library though.
On 2007-February-15 , at 23:03 , bulia byak wrote:
* The somewhat cryptic "F:" and "S:" labels in the selectedstyle indicator (at the left end of the statusbar) and in tool's style swatches are now spelled out as Fill: and Stroke:. We believe this makes the interface, even if less space-efficient, a bit more friendly for newbies. [[Note that I'm still not completely sold on this idea, but decided to try it out. Please voice your opinions.]]
IMO a better solution to this issue (don't know if I can call that an issue though...) would be using icons to define FILL and STROKE. It is more international (even in English the word STROKE was somewhat new to me as I am more used to the word OUTLINE), and the problem of the lenght of translated words won't exist anymore...
I attached a small screenshot of Corel Draw where icons are used to define which swatch is showing fill color, and which one - stroke.
:)
Molumen
On 2/16/07, momo <momo@...1386...> wrote:
IMO a better solution to this issue (don't know if I can call that an issue though...) would be using icons to define FILL and STROKE.
I usually prefer words to icons, but in this case icons might be a lesser evil. The only problem is to draw icons that are clear and easy to understand. Corel's ones seem blurry and overcomplex to me.
On 2/16/07, momo <momo@...1386...> wrote:
IMO a better solution to this issue (don't know if I can call that an issue though...) would be using icons to define FILL and STROKE.
I usually prefer words to icons, but in this case icons might be a lesser evil. The only problem is to draw icons that are clear and easy to understand. Corel's ones seem blurry and overcomplex to me.
Is someone working on a redesign of the icons? I remember that this was discussed not so long ago (Tango style, etc...). If yes, it would be cool to have these fill/stroke icons done too :)
Molumen
bulia byak wrote:
On 2/16/07, momo <momo@...1386...> wrote:
IMO a better solution to this issue (don't know if I can call that an issue though...) would be using icons to define FILL and STROKE.
I usually prefer words to icons, but in this case icons might be a lesser evil. The only problem is to draw icons that are clear and easy to understand. Corel's ones seem blurry and overcomplex to me.
What about using the icons from the fill and stroke dialog? If not those, what about just a solid square for fill and a stroked non-filled square for stroke? It seems to be the most self explanatory (visually) to me.
-Josh
participants (9)
-
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Andy Fitzsimon -
bulia byak -
jiho -
Jon A. Cruz -
Joshua A. Andler -
momo -
Romain Thouvenin -
Vladimir Savic