Selon Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...>: Just before moving to hard-freeze : is it possible to integrate the following patches ? 1498682 Update of czech.nsh 1498640 more Korean translation 1498252 French strings for windows installer 1495666 updated keys.fr 1494987 Spanish nhs translation 1493939 Easter Egg Tutorial 1493182 updated French calligraphy tutorial 1459716 translation of Tracing tutorial into Russian 1353260 Fix author name Regards, matiphas

There are a couple translated tutorials that I will generate today and throw back on the patch tracker ready for John or Aaron to commit. I personally think that the Easter Egg tutorial should wait until next release when we have a large tutorial update and the tuts will be categorized. At that point we will have a couple others of the same nature as well (such as glass buttons). I will have the tutorials in the tracker within 3 hours. -Josh Jon A. Cruz wrote:

On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:29 +0100, Alan Horkan wrote: I think the menus are serving different purposes though. Menus like "Layer" are operations that you perform on a layer. The effects menu serves as more of a collection of things that you can do to the document. "Change Document" menu doesn't sound very good :) Well, the real problem here is that they're automatically generated. It's unlikely that anything autogenerated will ever look good. In this case each parameter is independent to maintain good OO practice, so any change would be too much at this point in the release process. That makes sense to me, but I don't think something this trivial is worth breaking the hard freeze. --Ted

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Bryce Harrington wrote: I don't really care that much, but I would say that "Effects" feels more natural to me than "Effect". Perhaps it's different across the pond ;) I'll go with majority opinion, as long as we don't change the name entirely again ;) I think that we can translate before adding the "..." at the end. How does this effect RTL languages? Can I just append "..." on the end of the string and Glib::ustring will figure it out for me? Does any language have a different marking for this? Make sure to assign it to me. --Ted

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006 ted@...11... wrote: Adobe Illustrator uses "Effect". Unless there are *strong* reasons to do otherwise I definately encourage you do the same, and it was my understanding Inkscape developers would take the approach of the same or better not just different. To the best of my knowledge there was a convention of using verbs which happen to look like nouns for menus although there are unfortunately many exceptions. Also I tried to provide patch in the hope that someone would patch first and ask questions later. I'm still not sure if it works and I'm not in a good position to provide a better patch. Well depending on your definition it isn't really a bug (most things less than a crasher usually get moved to the RFE section) which is why I dont feel bad mentioning it this close to the hard freeze. I certainly would not want to annoy the translators. They do not get a lot of lead time before a release and it is a tough job to do well. However given the tools available and the existence of fuzzy translations there isn't much benefit in dely this change which would be helpful to users. The actual impact of this or any other punctuation change on translators would only really be to throw off any statistics based on the translations but it probably wouldn't be a something the translators would be likely to complain about. (Although I suspect the translators are often too modest to complain, when in fact they would be doing users a favour by making the original texts easier to understand and translate.) Please speak up now translators! (Having said that the Effects look rather complicated at the first glance, I predict lots of string changes ahead later but I'd prefer not to interfere and would love if the extensions writers reevalute the work thinking of users who might be scared off by equations and not already familiar with the problem domain.) I'll try and remember to file it tomorrow (Saturday, when I'm not stuck on dialup) and get on with those Adobe style keybindings. Sincerely -- Alan H

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Matiphas wrote: It doesn't fall back to the previous version? Right then, my mistake, scratch that suggestion. It would be too painful for translators and the ellipses ... should definately wait until after the release. -- Alan

On 6/3/06, bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> wrote: Here here. We're in Hard freeze, we've been in string freeze for at least a week. Regardless of which is right, now is not the time to be screwing around with strings and changing stuff. If it was that important it should have been brought up earlier. It has to wait for 0.45 or 0.44.1, and even then i think it should stay as effects. Incidentally, its effects in Paint Shop Pro. IMO even the mnemonic can wait, this is planned to be a maintained branch after all, get em in in the first update, lets get this out the door. Cheers Sim

Alan Horkan wrote: Anyone want to argue for "Affect"? :-) Aaron Spike

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, bulia byak wrote: Why do differently? As I said in my previous post I had understood Inkscape was going to do the same or better and not just different for the sake of it (embrace and extend works). I had hoped I wouldn't have to argue points of consistency like this everytime, else Inkscape will go the way of the GNU Image Manipulation Program where user experience becomes like a death of a thousand cuts with each and every little inconsistency adding up. Please provide another reason than precedence. It hasn't been that way for very long and I have asked for it to be changed since very shortly after it was put in place. Precendence shouldn't be an issue at all at least until there has been a stable supported Inkscape 1.0 and show users of your intention to keep things stable, otherwise everything should be up for change. Would it really? I disagree. However I pointed out Inkscape (and many other programs) have: File not Files, Edit not Edits, Layer not Layers, View not Views. These are verbs not nouns/objects which is what underlies your assumptions. It may not be the most reputable source but here is what I found in Wikipedia: "According to traditional human interface guidelines, menu names were always supposed to be verbs, such as "file" "edit" and so on[citation needed]. This has been largely ignored in subsequent UI developments." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menu_%28computing%29 [Parnoia Note: You can check the history, I have never edited that page, not yet anyway.] As I have mentioned before there shouldn't be a Path menu either. Paths should be covered under objects and treating them otherwise is an implementation detail users shouldn't be burdened with. Even if you are against the change of Effects to Effect you should certainly be in favour of adding the mnemonic to Effe_cts before releasing Inkscape with effects turned on by default. -- Alan

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, bulia byak wrote: Both appear the same for users. If things could be converted from Objects to paths as needed it would simplify things for users but require more effort from developers. As a developer I can see why you would prefer to treat them differently but I think you are too close to it to be objective. For example it would be especially great if the underlying text information could be hidden and preserved in some way which allowed text Paths to be converted back to text later, so the users don't need to really need to understand the distinction between paths and ordinary text. You understand the difference of course and many others do but it would be easier if users didn't need to. (And I'm sure there are better examples but I've borked my copy of inkscape so I picked one off the top of my head.) Submenus will be needed anyway. Inkscape uses lots and lots of menus but in various cases a dialog would be able to present more options and allow great flexibility. Compare how Freehand does inset/outset in a dialog to how Inkscape does it with only a few menu items for example, the real gains are when you want to inset more than one or two items at a time. Read that back to yourself. People can create great artistic works understanding very little, and create very impressive work using only a pen and basic line shapes. Sure it would be easier if they invested more time to learn how things worked but things could be easier. This is a strange turnaround from your usual optimism when it comes to empowering artists. I took it to read that adding ellipses in all the right places would have changed many strings and put too much of a burden on translators, but I hope the Effe_ct change is made before Effects are turned on by default. Wasn't the change from Effect to Effects delayed already before another release? The request for a mnemonic was incorrectly closed as fixed last week and I had to reopen it. If you also postpone turning Effect on by default for another release it avoids the problems and gives time for additional polish. -- Alan

On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 12:20 +0100, Alan Horkan wrote: Uhm, I don't think they're verbs. File - Actions that effect the "file" or the current data that you're working with. I would argue that Nautilus more adequately takes care of filing, which would be more organization of multiple files. Layer - Actions that effect the current "layer", as in the noun. But, in the end, it doesn't really matter. I have no problem adding the shortcut, but again, I think that really messes up translators. Fuzzy doesn't work there when many languages (especially Asian ones) have to do funny things with the shortcuts. --Ted

On 03/06/06, Spyros Blanas <sblanas@...400...> wrote: Yes and no. Whilst I am sympathetic to your point of view, and had thought of posting on the same lines, the fact is that this sort of discussion is very necessary: Think of it as a form of calibrating one's compass before going on a long march. FWIW, I suspect that we may have to ask the parties who hold strong views, such as Alan, the Drivers such as Bulia and the Translators to give us pros and cons for two basic alternatives: A. We agree that the present name "Effects" is wrong, but delivering Effects "On" in version 0.44 is so important that we will use this name (perhaps merely as a placeholder) and fix the UI in the next release. B. We agree that a coherent UI is so important that we will leave Effects "Off" in version 0.44 and turn them on by default when the UI is fit for public use. (Apologies if this offends anyone identifiable above, and apologies if I missed off the name of anyone whose name I should have included). Whilst I do have a view on this, which I will state if asked, personally I feel that UI is very, very important for Inkscape and we should either a) 'get it right', b) make it plastic - modifiable in later versions or c) state clearly that it highly subject to change over the next 55 releases (which is what I mean by public use). Your idea is a good one, and I would encourage you to provide it, but please note that a UI that needs to be set by the end user is not one I would propose unless your users are emacs/Lisp aficionados. Ben.

--- bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> wrote: Couldnt agree more, I still dont believe theres anything wrong with what we have. I agree we need to add the _ when we do 0.44.1, but the idea that we disable something as positive for the users as effects because of something so minor is just daft. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Ben Fowler wrote: As for the matter discussed, having done some work on the Greek translation, I think that it's pretty late for any changes now. However, if we have reached consensus that the name is going to change for 0.44 the sooner it changes the better because it gives more time for localization teams. In Greek language, this is not an issue, both names ("effect" and "effects") will get translated into the very same string. The word used is a non-Greek noun (don't frown upon this Alan, all menu names are nouns in Greek translations - I don't know why!), so its singular and plural forms are the same. Personally, when looking at menus nouns came first to mind. But of course I am not a native English speaker so that may not be true for everyone. I tend to agree with Bulia that Effects is better because it refers to many things (hence the plural). I proposed this in order to better handle case (b). I didn't have a set-everything-up-yourself design in mind, but instead thought more of having presets for various UI styles (like Inkscape native UI (the current one), Corel Draw UI, Adobe Illustrator UI, etc.). And if a user doesn't like the name of something, he can change it as he sees fit. In this way, the UI decisions could be assigned to a different team that would, for example, use feedback form usability evaluations or apply human-computer interaction guidelines to get a more user-friendly and consistent feel in menus, dialog boxes and status bar messages. - Spyros Blanas

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 09:36:51PM +0300, Spyros Blanas wrote: Sometimes these threads look more productive at the outset than they turn out. Certainly it is rare for Alan and Bulia to find themselves seeing eye to eye on a ui issue. But if nothing else this thread probably got a lot of people thinking more on ui issues. I'm glad a concensus was reached that no change should be made prior to the release. Sounds like the concensus favors keeping Effects, but there seems to be less opposition to adding ellipses and shortcut keys as long as its done after 0.44.0. I think it's important that we don't get too caught up in achieving absolute perfection right out of the gate. Our strength as an open source project, is optimization through iteration. Our challenge is to keep discussions civil and to stay open minded to new ideas. Bryce

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Josef Vybiral wrote: gimp used to have a Layers menu in 1.2 but changed to Layer in 2.0 they are not the best example when it comes to usability especially since Inkscape deliberately broke away from the way Sodipodi (and by implication GIMP) does things. photoshop uses the menu Filter not Filters and I put marginally more trust that the people who designed photoshop and the massive amounts of feedback they have gotten from the enormous userbase over the years. Majority is not usually the best way to make decisions. (Resisting the temptation to make comments about politics.) the question of fuzzy strings was only in relation to ellipses (...) There effect menu needs a mnemonic anyway and both these changes should be made before effects are turned on by default. -- Alan

On Fri, 2 Jun 2006 ted@...11... wrote: After serveral aborted attempts here is the bug: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1499985&... Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

Jon A. Cruz schrieb: ... Those win32 Installer related things are commited to the sources. Adib. ---

Hi, On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 10:42:38PM -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote: I wanted to write about this today, since I got into some reasonable state with reports against debian's bts. There are some issues with debian ATM, but I don't think they are all distro specific: 1. debian bugs #369706 and #369608 http://bugs.debian.org/369706 http://bugs.debian.org/369608 These are against the version 0.43, but further investigation shows that this is not an inkscape but seemingly a libgc problem. It seems that inkscape crashes with the new version 6.7 of libgc. Well, it is not a crash exactly, it seems to be a dead lock. You start inkscape on the command line and nothing happens. If you attach to the process using strace, you get millions of futex(0x10679060, FUTEX_WAIT, 2, NULL) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable) futex(0x10679060, FUTEX_WAIT, 2, NULL) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable) futex(0x10679060, FUTEX_WAIT, 2, NULL) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable) futex(0x10679060, FUTEX_WAIT, 2, NULL) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable) futex(0x10679060, FUTEX_WAIT, 2, NULL) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable) futex(0x10679060, FUTEX_WAIT, 2, NULL <unfinished ...> Process 32245 detached I also just built the new pre1 and here inkscape simply segfaults. I think thatis problem is not debian-specific. It only shows up because debian unstable is the the first wider spread distro using this new version of libgc. Some more issues like this were reported to me privately and they all could be resolved by downgrading libgc. I'll reassign them to libgc, but nonetheless this leaves inkscape in debian in a very bad state. 2. debian bug #354698 http://bugs.debian.org/354698 This is a bug recognized mainly by users which use inkscape under kdae and have the debian package gtk2-engines-gtk-qt installed. The package is used for different theming of gtk applications under KDE. You have it if there is an item "appearance-->gtk styles and themes" in your KControl menu. It causes duplicate inclusion of themes via different rc-files. Yuya Nishihara found out that this leads to a crash if the theme uses the smooth engine of gtk. Other applications are affected by this, too. So again, it seems this is not inkscape's fault. I contacted the debian maintainer of gtk2-engines-smooth about that but got no reply yet. 3. debian bug #366323 http://bugs.debian.org/366323 Another crash, but I don't know anything about it. Still no way to reproduce and with the bug from 1. in place it's difficult to debug now. I think 1. must be fixed first. There are other things in debians' BTS but I think these are the most important ones. Thanks, Wolfi

Hi Ralf, On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 09:53:13AM +0200, Ralf Stephan wrote: Sorry for replying that late. I just had a look to the cited URL, but it doesn't seem to be related to this issue. It shows a bug entitled "SmoothFreeArrowStyles() in libsmooth.so" which was closed in march. Nobody there mentions inkscape or SuSE there. The one open in debian's BTS seems to be different than this one and I did not find a bug related bug in gtk-themes bugzilla at a short glance. Could you please provide the correct link or explain the relationship between these bugs? Thanks, Wolfi