Re: [Inkscape-devel] New tiling interface proposal
And another iteration: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Tiling_tool
Is it me, or is the mail-archive not showing all mails in a timely manner? It took two days for one of mine to show up.
Anyway, to answer a few questions:
Changing the selected wallpaper group is something the user will do a few times and there are a fixed, small number of choices. Yes it would be very nice to show the user that many of the groups are similar and to make the user aware of the differences. However, I think there may be other ways to do this and they may even be more clear.
Yes, that's why there's a drop-down there. If you want to choose a tiling type immediately, then you use the drop-down. Also, the tile type can only be changed in tile edit mode. Users probably won't spend a lot of time in that mode.
In contrast, changing the size, orientation, in some cases angle of the base tile with respect to the group being tiled is something the user will need fine control over.
The tiles behave like objects, so you can transform them with the F1 transform tool, and you can snap them to other guides.
For radial and line tiling guides, you can also input numerical values in tile edit mode. I'm not sure what to do with the wallpaper tile though, since there are so many different shapes. A possibility is to define the coordinate of the first center of rotation + the length of 2 sides (only one is used if all sides are equal length).
Now to answer Jasper:
- Inkscape's current tiling approach doesn't actually generate the
tilings it says it does. It /can/, but by default it doesn't (you need to tweak the parameters to make sure the tiling actually matches the chosen tiling group).
Ah yes, I noticed the hard way that P2 tilings behaved weirdly... (i.e. I was trying to understand what it does by actually trying to render it)
Forget about tiles. Seriously. The problem with focusing on the actual base tile are two-fold. First of all, if you define the base tile together with what rotation centers/reflection axes are on its edges and at what positions, then it is often non-obvious what the actual base tile is.
But the base tile is still the most intuitive guidelines one has for wallpaper tilings... Also, you need to know where the edges are to create seamless tiles.
Or do you mean that the extra stuff gets in the way? The handles etc. aren't visible outside tile edit mode. Since the default tile is a simple P1 tile, and you need to bother double-clicking the tile to enter the tile edit mode and change what it does, I think we can assume that the user won't be too surprised if the output is no longer a simple P1.
Even worse, take a p2 tiling and put a 180-degree rotation center on its "translational" edges (I'm referring to the diagram drawn by veronika(?)), what you end up with is another p2 tiling with a different base tile...
Huh? It's still the same tile, just flipped. That's how wallpaper tilings work.
Another reason is that users might want to put guide points somewhere else than on a tile boundary. So I think it is more important to focus on the transformations involved, rather than on the base tile, and I think this can even help to make things make MORE sense.
I'm not sure what interface you're proposing. I know nothing about tilings, and the only thing I care about for tiling is that when I click the "apply" button, I get a pretty result (and a seamless output would qualify for the "pretty" factor). The specific transformations don't actually matter at all to users like me. :S
Hi Valerie,
Is it me, or is the mail-archive not showing all mails in a timely manner?
I have not yet seen the post by Jasper to which you referred so maybe the mail is slow.
I think I am slowly coming to see what you mean. Just another couple of questions about F1 transformations to clarify things for myself.
The tiles behave like objects, so you can transform them with the F1 transform tool, and you can snap them to other guides.
Does this mean that the guides for the base tile are visible at all times (in order to be selectable)? I was assuming that the guides for the base tile would only be visible in Tile Edit mode since they are not rendered in the final image – that is why I was concerned with overloading the interaction in Tile Edit mode.
Can you select the guides and modify them independent of the group of objects to which they are associated? That is, can the base tile guides and the “Original“ object (using the terminology of the current Clone menu) be selected and modified independently? For example, can I change the size of the Original object after I have associated it with a base tile without affecting the base tile?
Or, alternatively, do you need to select the Original object first and this will cause the tile guides to be displayed with their own transformation handles (i.e. there will be two sets of transform handles visible – one for the Original object and one for the base tile). If you are thinking of this kind of interaction, then there may be some confusion as to which “object” the keyboard accelerators are sent.
Even worse, take a p2 tiling and put a 180-degree rotation center on its "translational" edges (I'm referring to the diagram drawn by veronika(?)), what you end up with is another p2 tiling with a different base tile...
I think what Jasper is referring to is the fact if you only show a minimum set of operations to create a tile group, this is not a unique representation. As a result, changing some guide behaviour will not necessarily change the wallpaper group. Below is an image to illustrate his point. It would appear that changing the vertical edges of the base tile from translations to rotations has created a new kind of wallpaper group – the result on the Original object is definitely different when applied. However, closer inspection reveals that we can choose a different base tile and the resulting wallpaper group is still p2 – that is, the wallpaper group has not changed but the base tile has.
The point of showing how the tile will be applied to an object is still relevant. Even though it is not a unique representation, as long as it is a valid representation, the information required by the designer is conveyed. The idea about changing the behaviour of the base tile by modifying the behaviour of the different edges or corners, however, is a bit tricky. Only some modifications will result in new or even valid wallpaper tilings. The allowed changes would need to be constrained to only valid ones. Perhaps multiple representations of the same wallpaper group could be allowed – this would need to be reflected in the behaviour of the code when applying the base tile since as shown in the image above, the different representations do not yield exactly the same result.
Cheers, Veronika
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Valerie <valerie_vk@...36...> wrote:
And another iteration: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Tiling_tool
It is still overly complex. When I look at the various toolbars, the first thing that comes to mind is that nothing else in inkscape functions like this. With regard to on-canvas controls, look at the Selector tool. One click on an object brings up handles for scaling, a second click toggles to rotation and skewing handles, but nothing on the tool controls bar changes. The node tool has on-canvas controls for nodes and their handles as well.
Here is a video (I just posted in a similar thread) that is for on-canvas control added for align and distribute in the app Laidout: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APGguBZOl10 Realistically, the less fields one needs to enter, the less buttons on a toolbar or dialog that one needs to mess with will in the end make for a much better UX.
Again, I'm not trying to speak negatively about the work that has gone into thinking up a useful UI so far, I just have a hard time envisioning it integrating well as it's currently proposed. Currently, the level of complexity involved (so many UI elements) make it feel more scattered than the current suboptimal solution we already have.
Cheers, Josh
participants (3)
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Josh Andler -
Valerie -
Veronika