Looks like the win98 crash will not be fixed. I even submitted a bug to Gnome but it got no response so far:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=316878
Since no one agreed to roll back windows libs to the previous working version, we have to officially drop support for this platform.
This saddens me immensely, it's a defeat which will likely affect my feelings towards the project. I have win98 on an older box that my wife and kids use, and now suddenly it has no latest Inkscape anymore. (Not that it worked there perfectly before, but at least it worked and was used quite often.)
Here's my proposed addition to the Known Issues in the release notes - Peter and/or Jon, please review and commit (unless you have any other ideas, of course):
Due to a bug in GTK 2.8, this version of Inkscape will not work on Windows 95/98/ME. Please don't send us crash reports from those platforms. We hope to be able to resume support for these platforms in the future, but no specific committments can be made at this point.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
bulia byak wrote:
Looks like the win98 crash will not be fixed. I even submitted a bug to Gnome but it got no response so far:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=316878
Since no one agreed to roll back windows libs to the previous working version, we have to officially drop support for this platform.
This saddens me immensely, it's a defeat which will likely affect my feelings towards the project. I have win98 on an older box that my wife and kids use, and now suddenly it has no latest Inkscape anymore. (Not that it worked there perfectly before, but at least it worked and was used quite often.)
Indeed, this is a shame. First, for some time GIMP stopped to support Win9x, now Inkscape follow the trend. We like to complain about Microsoft forcing users to expensive upgrades, but as disturbing as it is, free software does the same thing, force users to upgrade their Windows version.
On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 10:46:22AM +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
Indeed, this is a shame. First, for some time GIMP stopped to support Win9x, now Inkscape follow the trend. We like to complain about Microsoft forcing users to expensive upgrades, but as disturbing as it is, free software does the same thing, force users to upgrade their Windows version.
Except in this case, win9* users have it entirely in their power to control this, in that they can participate in providing that support. Indeed, Inkscape can *only* feasibly support a given platform if it has adequate participation by users of that platform.
Bryce
Except in this case, win9* users have it entirely in their power to control this, in that they can participate in providing that support. Indeed, Inkscape can *only* feasibly support a given platform if it has adequate participation by users of that platform.
Bryce
Do you mean that users will have the power to fix the GTK2.8 bug ? Do you mean that some users should fork gtk ?
Don't you think that it's a not-my-problem answer ?
Of course they have the source to do it. SO ?
I think that a similar way to improve inkscape much faster would be to supply a todo list, with some hints to do it, and let the users develop it. That way, with such a user base, in 2 months inkscape could achieve a 1.0 goal. (one month for RFE and 1.0 RC1 and one month for bugs)
don't they have the source to do it ?
Hervé
On 10/4/05, herve couvelard <herve.couvelard@...26...> wrote:
Do you mean that users will have the power to fix the GTK2.8 bug ? Do you mean that some users should fork gtk ?
Don't you think that it's a not-my-problem answer ?
Of course they have the source to do it. SO ?
I think that a similar way to improve inkscape much faster would be to supply a todo list, with some hints to do it, and let the users develop it. That way, with such a user base, in 2 months inkscape could achieve a 1.0 goal. (one month for RFE and 1.0 RC1 and one month for bugs)
don't they have the source to do it ?
Hervé,
I dont't really think that raising tone will help us solve the issue. Gtk bugs should be addressed by Gtk developers.
Alexandre
Hervé,
I dont't really think that raising tone will help us solve the issue. Gtk bugs should be addressed by Gtk developers.
of course it should. And i didn't raise tone, i just follow the road shown by Bryce.
The bryce answer was quite irritating (not a wrong answer, but a bad answer). When free software stop supporting win98, they give guns to microsoft.
I haven't C skills so i can't help and no free space on my only windows is a win98-500 Mo only.
I can't use inkscape above 0.38 on my redhat 9.0 because of GTK2.
Ok, i should upgrade, perhaps.
Hervé
ps : will gtkmm will work on win98 ? or red hat 9 ?
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On 10/4/05, herve couvelard <herve.couvelard@...26...> wrote:
ps : will gtkmm will work on win98 ? or red hat 9 ?
dag.wieers.com/packages/gtkmm2/
It took me a single miserable minute to find it :)
I was asking if _inkscape_ with gtkmm will work on win98 and redhat 9.
On 10/4/05, herve couvelard <herve.couvelard@...26...> wrote:
dag.wieers.com/packages/gtkmm2/
It took me a single miserable minute to find it :)
I was asking if _inkscape_ with gtkmm will work on win98 and redhat 9.
Could you please explain why Inkscape shouldn't compile on RH9 if gtkmm2/gtk2 packages are available for this platform?
Alexandre
herve couvelard wrote:
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On 10/4/05, herve couvelard <herve.couvelard@...26...> wrote:
ps : will gtkmm will work on win98 ? or red hat 9 ?
dag.wieers.com/packages/gtkmm2/
It took me a single miserable minute to find it :)
I was asking if _inkscape_ with gtkmm will work on win98 and redhat 9.
also from Dag: http://dag.wieers.com/packages/inkscape/ , the latest available is 0.39 have you tried the autopackage version? but the static rpm?
at least, compared with Windows, a Linux upgrade require no money...
Now, as things are presently, we may be able to scrape up some win9x devs to address the Cairo issues, but this is an issue that is not going to go away in the long term.
The fundamental problem is that a declining supply of free software developers own and use a copy of win98. Not just in Inkscape, but in the free software ecosystem as a whole.
I suppose one could argue, from a strategic point of view, that developers like Bryce or myself should pirate a copy of Win98 and devote their time to developing for it instead of (for example) Linux.
Needless to say, you'll have to forgive me if I decline.
-mental
On Tuesday 04 October 2005 19:07, mental@...3... wrote:
Now, as things are presently, we may be able to scrape up some win9x devs to address the Cairo issues, but this is an issue that is not going to go away in the long term.
The fundamental problem is that a declining supply of free software developers own and use a copy of win98. Not just in Inkscape, but in the free software ecosystem as a whole.
Which is not totally surprising given the lack of updates, especially security, and more and more commercial apps wont run on it.
Craig
On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 10:23:04AM +0200, herve couvelard wrote:
Except in this case, win9* users have it entirely in their power to control this, in that they can participate in providing that support. Indeed, Inkscape can *only* feasibly support a given platform if it has adequate participation by users of that platform.
Bryce
Do you mean that users will have the power to fix the GTK2.8 bug ?
Yes
Don't you think that it's a not-my-problem answer ?
I prefer to think of it as "where-there's-a-will-there's-a-way".
I think that a similar way to improve inkscape much faster would be to supply a todo list, with some hints to do it, and let the users develop it. That way, with such a user base, in 2 months inkscape could achieve a 1.0 goal. (one month for RFE and 1.0 RC1 and one month for bugs)
You can consider the bug tracker to be the todo list; simply search on "WIN98", etc. The wiki has many detailed hints on how to fix the issues. The necessary info is there, it simply requires people with the will to put effort into fixing the issues.
Bug fixing actually is reasonably straightforward given some coding experience and knowledge of gdb. Half the battle is in reproducing the bug, which really requires that you have a dev box set up with the OS in question. Given that, plus some elbow grease and advice from the regular developers, the issues can usually be sorted out. Many of the bugs I've worked on have only taken an afternoon or two max to sort out, and I imagine most of the windows bugs are similar. The first couple bugs would probably take a lot of work, but once you've got the hang of it, many bugs would be within your grasp.
Maybe the issue is just that people with enough interest in computers to be able to get into fixing inkscape bugs, would also have enough interest to use a newer distro than win98. So possibly this is too challenging of a problem to solve...
Bryce
herve couvelard wrote:
Except in this case, win9* users have it entirely in their power to control this, in that they can participate in providing that support. Indeed, Inkscape can *only* feasibly support a given platform if it has adequate participation by users of that platform.
Bryce
Do you mean that users will have the power to fix the GTK2.8 bug ? Do you mean that some users should fork gtk ?
Actually, a possibility would be to hack the Glib or Gtk+ source, build it and insert it into our library bundle. Remember that for Win32, we supply the libraries ourselves, and can do almost whatever we need to fix them.
Bob
On Oct 4, 2005, at 1:23 AM, herve couvelard wrote:
Except in this case, win9* users have it entirely in their power to control this, in that they can participate in providing that support. Indeed, Inkscape can *only* feasibly support a given platform if it has adequate participation by users of that platform. Bryce
Do you mean that users will have the power to fix the GTK2.8 bug ? Do you mean that some users should fork gtk ?
Actually, things probably don't require a fork.
The main thing with Windows support at all is that the GNOME, Gtk+, and Gimp people just don't have the developer bodies supporting things.
In general, if they get tested patches that are solid enough, they are more than happy to include things. It's the general lack of developers on Win98 that is the main holdback.
bryce:
but as disturbing as it is, free software does the same thing, force users to upgrade their Windows version.
Except in this case, win9* users have it entirely in their power to control this, in that they can participate in providing that support. Indeed, Inkscape can *only* feasibly support a given platform if it has adequate participation by users of that platform.
That's why the release note's apology should include the bugzilla link, instead of only frustrating users. If there are many really active Win9* users, branching Gtk would be the most logical thing for them.
ralf
On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 10:36:13AM +0200, Ralf Stephan wrote:
bryce:
but as disturbing as it is, free software does the same thing, force users to upgrade their Windows version.
Except in this case, win9* users have it entirely in their power to control this, in that they can participate in providing that support. Indeed, Inkscape can *only* feasibly support a given platform if it has adequate participation by users of that platform.
That's why the release note's apology should include the bugzilla link, instead of only frustrating users. If there are many really active Win9* users, branching Gtk would be the most logical thing for them.
Well, if the issue is simply that gtk 2.8 uses cairo, which has functions that do not work on win98, then perhaps a potential solution would be for win98 users to create their own inkscape package that uses older gtk libraries, that *do* work on win98?
Presently, Inkscape itself requires only gtk 2.4. I believe that the windows version of Inkscape moved to later versions of gtk in order to gain bug fixes for issues encountered on windows, so it is is possible that by reverting to an earlier gtk, windows inkscape users would have to endure those bugs, but perhaps that would be better than not having inkscape at all?
Also, regarding the irritation of being told essentially, "Fix it yourself," yes I know that's annoying. However, realize that it is also annoying for developers to receive bugs from windows users, create fixes, then ask for a windows user to test and verify the fix and never hear anything back. I see many developers fixing bugs by just guessing at what might be causing the problem, and then having to close them without ever knowing if they really got fixed or not. Just having someone on Win98 to just test the bug fixes that developers do would be a huge help. I think part of the push to drop support for win98 is that developers are irritated by never getting feedback on their fixes.
Now, I should add that there *are* a lot of users who are good at giving feedback, particularly people on this list. These users are vital to our being able to support versions of Inkscape on platforms other than Linux. We just need more good people like this.
Now, while in the past I think we could have gotten by with just having some windows users to give feedback to the developers like that, today I think it's gotten to the point where we really need to have some dedicated people doing development (bug fixing at least) on Windows.
For this particular problem with gtk and Inkscape, it sort of sounds like there may be solutions that could be achieved without needing to resort to coding. It could simply be a matter of experimenting with different dlls, and then producing a zip file package of those dlls. This is definitely something that a non-coder could do, although it would require some technical skill and time to test it out thoroughly.
Bryce
Bryce Harrington wrote:
Well, if the issue is simply that gtk 2.8 uses cairo, which has functions that do not work on win98, then perhaps a potential solution would be for win98 users to create their own inkscape package that uses older gtk libraries, that *do* work on win98?
Is GTK+ still included in the Inkscape installer? Then it might be a good idea to make it an individual package, and let users choose what they want.
Presently, Inkscape itself requires only gtk 2.4. I believe that the windows version of Inkscape moved to later versions of gtk in order to gain bug fixes for issues encountered on windows, so it is is possible that by reverting to an earlier gtk, windows inkscape users would have to endure those bugs, but perhaps that would be better than not having inkscape at all?
It would surely be easier to test this then. GTK+ 2.6 should work, too, at least there weren't any users so far who reported that this kills GIMP on Win98.
HTH, Michael
bulia byak wrote:
Looks like the win98 crash will not be fixed. I even submitted a bug to Gnome but it got no response so far:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=316878
Since no one agreed to roll back windows libs to the previous working version, we have to officially drop support for this platform.
This saddens me immensely, it's a defeat which will likely affect my feelings towards the project. I have win98 on an older box that my wife and kids use, and now suddenly it has no latest Inkscape anymore. (Not that it worked there perfectly before, but at least it worked and was used quite often.)
Here's my proposed addition to the Known Issues in the release notes - Peter and/or Jon, please review and commit (unless you have any other ideas, of course):
Due to a bug in GTK 2.8, this version of Inkscape will not work on Windows 95/98/ME. Please don't send us crash reports from those platforms. We hope to be able to resume support for these platforms in the future, but no specific committments can be made at this point.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
Bulia,
It saddens me, too. What we need is some guy who has Win98, and enough disk space to set up the Mingw environment to build and test. Is there nobody out there?
Please be patient with us. We are on your side, dude. You are the best GUI programmer on the planet, and the heart and soul of this project.
Bob
Regarding this long lasting discussion
1. I tried the Mozilla firefox 1.5 Beta aka dear park alpha that use cairo and it runs under Win98 and shows also some SVG (the marbles looks somehow dodgy) 2. I found this message from the cairo-mailinglist mentioning to do a software fallback for win98 http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/cairo/2005-August/004944.html
HTH,
Adib. --- Do you guys think that I also have this germish style (german sentences just babelfished) ;-)
bulia byak schrieb:
Looks like the win98 crash will not be fixed. I even submitted a bug to Gnome but it got no response so far:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=316878
Since no one agreed to roll back windows libs to the previous working version, we have to officially drop support for this platform.
This saddens me immensely, it's a defeat which will likely affect my feelings towards the project. I have win98 on an older box that my wife and kids use, and now suddenly it has no latest Inkscape anymore. (Not that it worked there perfectly before, but at least it worked and was used quite often.)
Here's my proposed addition to the Known Issues in the release notes - Peter and/or Jon, please review and commit (unless you have any other ideas, of course):
Due to a bug in GTK 2.8, this version of Inkscape will not work on Windows 95/98/ME. Please don't send us crash reports from those platforms. We hope to be able to resume support for these platforms in the future, but no specific committments can be made at this point.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
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Summarizing this thread, I think we have to accept that there's not much chance of Inkscape working on win98 in the near future. There's too many things broken there, and it's not even clear which one must be fixed first:
- I traced the latest crash to a drop-down list creation function in GTK;
- before that I and others were having a Pango crash - which I fixed but then it returned again;
- some people said it may be due to Cairo;
- most importantly, I cannot debug it properly, because it crashes at once when I run it from gdb (and so I cannot even be of much help to others willing to work on that).
With all this, I just don't feel like it's doable at all. Even if one issue gets fixed, others remain, and still others are bound to appear. So this decision (dropping 98) has, in a way, been brewing for a long time - though I would much prefer for this to not happen so soon.
Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion, though. I have added a disclaimer to the release notes.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
On 10/9/05, bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> wrote:
Summarizing this thread, I think we have to accept that there's not much chance of Inkscape working on win98 in the near future.
Doubtful. GIMP CVS requires gtk 2.8 now. I _really_ doubt that they abandon Win98.
Alexandre
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On 10/9/05, bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> wrote:
Summarizing this thread, I think we have to accept that there's not much chance of Inkscape working on win98 in the near future.
Doubtful. GIMP CVS requires gtk 2.8 now. I _really_ doubt that they abandon Win98.
Have a look at this screenshot of the GIMP 2.2.x installer: http://nicubunu.ro/pictures/gimp/gimp_setup.png
OTOH, as it was suggested earlier in this thread, Mozilla also uses Cairo, so there is some hope for a patch
participants (12)
-
unknown＠example.com -
Adib Taraben -
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Bob Jamison -
Bryce Harrington -
bulia byak -
Craig Bradney -
herve couvelard -
Jon A. Cruz -
Michael Schumacher -
Nicu Buculei -
Ralf Stephan