Web IRC client - support troubles
It's come to my attention that our website IRC client, which provides a convenient means for users to ask a quick question, is causing a lot of frustration amongst our volunteers on the channel who are trying to provide support and manage the channel.
There's three issues that I'm aware of:
* Drive by's:
Very often people will log in, shoot off a question that is easily answered, then depart before anyone has a chance to answer it.
* Language:
Often people will express questions in their native language. As our current support volunteers only include English speakers, this just isn't going to work out.
* Anonyminity:
The nice thing about the IRC client is since it doesn't require login credentials, it's quick and easy to use. The downside is we have no idea who the person is. This means no way to contact them out of band (e.g. shoot them an email with the answer to their question, or post it to their inkscape.org account), and no way to ban people who behave abusively (the channel op can kill the session, but the troll could just re-login.)
There may well be other issues, but I think this is representative.
Compounding the problem, I think the IRC support crew feel a bit disempowered: The web irc client is part of the website and thus maintained by the website maintainers.
The easiest solution would be to switch off the irc client on the website, or for the IRC support staff to set /ignore (or worse) on "inkscaper*". But these don't really *solve* the problems, they just brush them under the rug.
Are there other changes (maybe minor tweaks, maybe major re-thinks) that would address these problems while still helping users get answers to their questions, quickly and/or interactively?
Bryce
One quick thought, what about some form of login to the website being required to participate via irc? We give social media logins as an option, so the bar isn't too high.
I also think that asking for email as a requirement so we can followup, if they are impatient, still allows us to help them in whatever capacity is feasible. I've got no problem troubleshooting if our schedules happen to not align.
Cheers, Josh On May 19, 2015 10:20 PM, "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> wrote:
It's come to my attention that our website IRC client, which provides a convenient means for users to ask a quick question, is causing a lot of frustration amongst our volunteers on the channel who are trying to provide support and manage the channel.
There's three issues that I'm aware of:
Drive by's:
Very often people will log in, shoot off a question that is easily answered, then depart before anyone has a chance to answer it.
Language:
Often people will express questions in their native language. As our current support volunteers only include English speakers, this just isn't going to work out.
Anonyminity:
The nice thing about the IRC client is since it doesn't require login credentials, it's quick and easy to use. The downside is we have no idea who the person is. This means no way to contact them out of band (e.g. shoot them an email with the answer to their question, or post it to their inkscape.org account), and no way to ban people who behave abusively (the channel op can kill the session, but the troll could just re-login.)
There may well be other issues, but I think this is representative.
Compounding the problem, I think the IRC support crew feel a bit disempowered: The web irc client is part of the website and thus maintained by the website maintainers.
The easiest solution would be to switch off the irc client on the website, or for the IRC support staff to set /ignore (or worse) on "inkscaper*". But these don't really *solve* the problems, they just brush them under the rug.
Are there other changes (maybe minor tweaks, maybe major re-thinks) that would address these problems while still helping users get answers to their questions, quickly and/or interactively?
Bryce
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
I like the first one, in the second one: Publicy email as username in IRC or made a intermediate step in the website? This can be mailed with the help of a bot using only IRC client like inkbot make with some URL?
Regards, Jabier.
On Tue, 2015-05-19 at 22:46 -0700, Josh Andler wrote:
One quick thought, what about some form of login to the website being required to participate via irc? We give social media logins as an option, so the bar isn't too high.
I also think that asking for email as a requirement so we can followup, if they are impatient, still allows us to help them in whatever capacity is feasible. I've got no problem troubleshooting if our schedules happen to not align.
Cheers, Josh On May 19, 2015 10:20 PM, "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> wrote:
It's come to my attention that our website IRC client, which provides a convenient means for users to ask a quick question, is causing a lot of frustration amongst our volunteers on the channel who are trying to provide support and manage the channel.
There's three issues that I'm aware of:
Drive by's:
Very often people will log in, shoot off a question that is easily answered, then depart before anyone has a chance to answer it.
Language:
Often people will express questions in their native language. As our current support volunteers only include English speakers, this just isn't going to work out.
Anonyminity:
The nice thing about the IRC client is since it doesn't require login credentials, it's quick and easy to use. The downside is we have no idea who the person is. This means no way to contact them out of band (e.g. shoot them an email with the answer to their question, or post it to their inkscape.org account), and no way to ban people who behave abusively (the channel op can kill the session, but the troll could just re-login.)
There may well be other issues, but I think this is representative.
Compounding the problem, I think the IRC support crew feel a bit disempowered: The web irc client is part of the website and thus maintained by the website maintainers.
The easiest solution would be to switch off the irc client on the website, or for the IRC support staff to set /ignore (or worse) on "inkscaper*". But these don't really *solve* the problems, they just brush them under the rug.
Are there other changes (maybe minor tweaks, maybe major re-thinks) that would address these problems while still helping users get answers to their questions, quickly and/or interactively?
Bryce
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
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Hi,
I like the idea of only allowing logged-in users who have given a valid email address to use the chat from the website directly, and to use their user name (with a pre- or suffix). However, implementing this will not happen overnight, and this will only help against trolls. We do have a bug report for improving the IRC plugin here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape-web/+bug/1233868 which contains a request for this already. I'd like to invite the programmers among us to help with this - we are only two people who currently work on improving the website's internals, and one of these two is only a beginner (guess who ;) ). (We are currently focusing on database updating and stability problems, so the website will work *at all* when being updated.)
However, this change cannot protect our chat volunteers from being asked questions in the wrong language, and it will probably not make people a lot more patient.
* I'm not sure if the chat volunteers really want to send mails after people who logged out too early? I personally would not go to such lengths... although I would find that extremely nice by anyone, even if it were automated. This would be possible if usernames were associated with the chat plugin. But it also would somehow defeat the interactive aspect. We have the answers section on launchpad for people whose questions are less urgent. Should we link to that from the Chat page as a short-time solution?
* The language problem (how frequent is it? Which languages are concerned most?) might be the easiest to solve:
- like it was already done for the French website translation, we can change the plugin to auto-login to the inkscape-channel in the language of the translation (if it exists). - we can add the word 'English' (in bold, if necessary) to all other versions of the Chat page (German already has this in two places, non-bold) - some people might still try it in their own language despite this, because there is no channel in their language, and they hope to be lucky, and don't speak English well enough. While this is probably quite annoying, I wouldn't blame them for trying... There *is* a chance that someone does speak their language, it's not zero - there may be some other user from their country logged in.
* I'm not sure there exists a solution for the 'patience problem'. I myself am guilty of not wanting to wait longer than 20 minutes (I don't know what the usual wait time is in Inkscape-user, so don't pin me to a specific amount of time here!). People have things to do, and they move on to look for a solution elsewhere, they may even do a web search in parallel and have found a solution when they log out. We had a hint to wait for 10-15 minutes in the text about the chat applet. Is this too short? How long should it be?
Regards, Maren
Am 20.05.2015 um 11:31 schrieb Jabier Arraiza:
I like the first one, in the second one: Publicy email as username in IRC or made a intermediate step in the website? This can be mailed with the help of a bot using only IRC client like inkbot make with some URL?
Regards, Jabier.
On Tue, 2015-05-19 at 22:46 -0700, Josh Andler wrote:
One quick thought, what about some form of login to the website being required to participate via irc? We give social media logins as an option, so the bar isn't too high.
I also think that asking for email as a requirement so we can followup, if they are impatient, still allows us to help them in whatever capacity is feasible. I've got no problem troubleshooting if our schedules happen to not align.
Cheers, Josh On May 19, 2015 10:20 PM, "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> wrote:
It's come to my attention that our website IRC client, which provides a convenient means for users to ask a quick question, is causing a lot of frustration amongst our volunteers on the channel who are trying to provide support and manage the channel.
There's three issues that I'm aware of:
Drive by's:
Very often people will log in, shoot off a question that is easily answered, then depart before anyone has a chance to answer it.
Language:
Often people will express questions in their native language. As our current support volunteers only include English speakers, this just isn't going to work out.
Anonyminity:
The nice thing about the IRC client is since it doesn't require login credentials, it's quick and easy to use. The downside is we have no idea who the person is. This means no way to contact them out of band (e.g. shoot them an email with the answer to their question, or post it to their inkscape.org account), and no way to ban people who behave abusively (the channel op can kill the session, but the troll could just re-login.)
There may well be other issues, but I think this is representative.
Compounding the problem, I think the IRC support crew feel a bit disempowered: The web irc client is part of the website and thus maintained by the website maintainers.
The easiest solution would be to switch off the irc client on the website, or for the IRC support staff to set /ignore (or worse) on "inkscaper*". But these don't really *solve* the problems, they just brush them under the rug.
Are there other changes (maybe minor tweaks, maybe major re-thinks) that would address these problems while still helping users get answers to their questions, quickly and/or interactively?
Bryce
On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:26 AM, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> wrote:
- I'm not sure if the chat volunteers really want to send mails after
people who logged out too early?
If I saw it I would. I don't always scroll the backlogs, but do on occasion. If I saw someone say something that didn't get addressed that I could find an answer for I would contact them if possible. I will throw out the caveat that if they were somehow rude in the short time they were in the channel I would be far less inclined to follow up.
Cheers, Josh
On 20 May 2015 at 01:19, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> wrote:
Compounding the problem, I think the IRC support crew feel a bit disempowered: The web irc client is part of the website and thus maintained by the website maintainers.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated. I would love to see the irc focused people look after the page so long as the style remains consistent with the website.
The fear I have is that the irc team wish to remove the irc chat plugin because it's inconvenient. Seeing no value in participation from people using the web chat. I'd like to keep irc functionality on the website as it's provides a sense of an unsegregated project. Once we have the mailing lists (and their logs) properly intergrated, the project should feel more like a cohesive whole and not separate channels of communication.
But as Maren has posted, we could do with help too. If there's a good programmer who knows how to integrate IRC into a python based website's backend, then we might be able to use website messages instead of an irc plugin. But that's a pretty big job in itself. There are issues, but I think they're more technical than informational (warnings etc).
Best Regards, Martin Owens
Hi Friends, I'm replying to the "Re: [Inkscape-devel] Web IRC client - support troubles" thread, but it's sort of a different topic, so I changed the title, so it doesn't get confused.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated.
Speaking of making the community more integrated, in addition to having a chat functionality, I think it would be ideal to have an official forum associated with the website. There are several free forum softwares available, which should be able to be integrated with the site, fairly easily (at least as far as I understand). And some even include chat features, although I don't think any have IRC chat. So having a forum would not necessarily require someone to program it for the website.
I suppose there must be a reason why there's no forum, and why there has been no discussion of a forum, at least as long as I've been helping on the website (and joined the devel list). I don't know what that reason might be, but I would be interested to learn it.
All best, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 10:13 AM To: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Cc: "inkscape-devel" <inkscape-devel@...6...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Web IRC client - support troubles
On 20 May 2015 at 01:19, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> wrote:
Compounding the problem, I think the IRC support crew feel a bit disempowered: The web irc client is part of the website and thus maintained by the website maintainers.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated. I would love to see the irc focused people look after the page so long as the style remains consistent with the website.
The fear I have is that the irc team wish to remove the irc chat plugin because it's inconvenient. Seeing no value in participation from people using the web chat. I'd like to keep irc functionality on the website as it's provides a sense of an unsegregated project. Once we have the mailing lists (and their logs) properly intergrated, the project should feel more like a cohesive whole and not separate channels of communication.
But as Maren has posted, we could do with help too. If there's a good programmer who knows how to integrate IRC into a python based website's backend, then we might be able to use website messages instead of an irc plugin. But that's a pretty big job in itself. There are issues, but I think they're more technical than informational (warnings etc).
Best Regards, Martin Owens
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Hi Brynn,
I have thought about forums, but forums are a big set of features and I've not had much time to look into that yet. If I were to do them, I'd want them to be the same user account and etc as the existing django website. So it'd probably have to be a django app.
If anyone wants to contribute, please make a forums branch and we can see what's possible.
Martin,
On 22 May 2015 at 03:58, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Friends, I'm replying to the "Re: [Inkscape-devel] Web IRC client - support troubles" thread, but it's sort of a different topic, so I changed the title, so it doesn't get confused.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated.
Speaking of making the community more integrated, in addition to having a chat functionality, I think it would be ideal to have an official forum associated with the website. There are several free forum softwares available, which should be able to be integrated with the site, fairly easily (at least as far as I understand). And some even include chat features, although I don't think any have IRC chat. So having a forum would not necessarily require someone to program it for the website.
I suppose there must be a reason why there's no forum, and why there has been no discussion of a forum, at least as long as I've been helping on the website (and joined the devel list). I don't know what that reason might be, but I would be interested to learn it.
All best, brynn
From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 10:13 AM To: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Cc: "inkscape-devel" <inkscape-devel@...6...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Web IRC client - support troubles
On 20 May 2015 at 01:19, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> wrote:
Compounding the problem, I think the IRC support crew feel a bit disempowered: The web irc client is part of the website and thus maintained by the website maintainers.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated. I would love to see the irc focused people look after the page so long as the style remains consistent with the website.
The fear I have is that the irc team wish to remove the irc chat plugin because it's inconvenient. Seeing no value in participation from people using the web chat. I'd like to keep irc functionality on the website as it's provides a sense of an unsegregated project. Once we have the mailing lists (and their logs) properly intergrated, the project should feel more like a cohesive whole and not separate channels of communication.
But as Maren has posted, we could do with help too. If there's a good programmer who knows how to integrate IRC into a python based website's backend, then we might be able to use website messages instead of an irc plugin. But that's a pretty big job in itself. There are issues, but I think they're more technical than informational (warnings etc).
Best Regards, Martin Owens
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 08:08:50AM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
Hi Brynn,
I have thought about forums, but forums are a big set of features and I've not had much time to look into that yet. If I were to do them, I'd want them to be the same user account and etc as the existing django website. So it'd probably have to be a django app.
If anyone wants to contribute, please make a forums branch and we can see what's possible.
Forums sound like a good idea, and might alleviate some of the web irc problems by giving end users a better place to ask questions.
Like Martin, I would love to see someone step up to help implement forums in our Django site.
Bryce
Martin,
On 22 May 2015 at 03:58, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Friends, I'm replying to the "Re: [Inkscape-devel] Web IRC client - support troubles" thread, but it's sort of a different topic, so I changed the title, so it doesn't get confused.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated.
Speaking of making the community more integrated, in addition to having a chat functionality, I think it would be ideal to have an official forum associated with the website. There are several free forum softwares available, which should be able to be integrated with the site, fairly easily (at least as far as I understand). And some even include chat features, although I don't think any have IRC chat. So having a forum would not necessarily require someone to program it for the website.
I suppose there must be a reason why there's no forum, and why there has been no discussion of a forum, at least as long as I've been helping on the website (and joined the devel list). I don't know what that reason might be, but I would be interested to learn it.
All best, brynn
From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 10:13 AM To: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Cc: "inkscape-devel" <inkscape-devel@...6...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Web IRC client - support troubles
On 20 May 2015 at 01:19, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> wrote:
Compounding the problem, I think the IRC support crew feel a bit disempowered: The web irc client is part of the website and thus maintained by the website maintainers.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated. I would love to see the irc focused people look after the page so long as the style remains consistent with the website.
The fear I have is that the irc team wish to remove the irc chat plugin because it's inconvenient. Seeing no value in participation from people using the web chat. I'd like to keep irc functionality on the website as it's provides a sense of an unsegregated project. Once we have the mailing lists (and their logs) properly intergrated, the project should feel more like a cohesive whole and not separate channels of communication.
But as Maren has posted, we could do with help too. If there's a good programmer who knows how to integrate IRC into a python based website's backend, then we might be able to use website messages instead of an irc plugin. But that's a pretty big job in itself. There are issues, but I think they're more technical than informational (warnings etc).
Best Regards, Martin Owens
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Hi Everyone, Wouldn't it be possible to start out with one of the excellent free forum softwares that are available? And then at some time, when someone volunteers to create a django forum, couldn't they make it so that all the content can be easily transferred / imported? Or doesn't django already have forums or forum mods (that could be used until we build our own)?
brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2015 6:42 PM To: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Cc: "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...>; "inkscape-devel" <inkscape-devel@...6...> Subject: Re: website forum?
On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 08:08:50AM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
Hi Brynn,
I have thought about forums, but forums are a big set of features and I've not had much time to look into that yet. If I were to do them, I'd want them to be the same user account and etc as the existing django website. So it'd probably have to be a django app.
If anyone wants to contribute, please make a forums branch and we can see what's possible.
Forums sound like a good idea, and might alleviate some of the web irc problems by giving end users a better place to ask questions.
Like Martin, I would love to see someone step up to help implement forums in our Django site.
Bryce
Martin,
On 22 May 2015 at 03:58, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Friends, I'm replying to the "Re: [Inkscape-devel] Web IRC client - support troubles" thread, but it's sort of a different topic, so I changed the title, so it doesn't get confused.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated.
Speaking of making the community more integrated, in addition to having a chat functionality, I think it would be ideal to have an official forum associated with the website. There are several free forum softwares available, which should be able to be integrated with the site, fairly easily (at least as far as I understand). And some even include chat features, although I don't think any have IRC chat. So having a forum would not necessarily require someone to program it for the website.
I suppose there must be a reason why there's no forum, and why there has been no discussion of a forum, at least as long as I've been helping on the website (and joined the devel list). I don't know what that reason might be, but I would be interested to learn it.
All best, brynn
From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 10:13 AM To: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Cc: "inkscape-devel" <inkscape-devel@...6...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Web IRC client - support troubles
On 20 May 2015 at 01:19, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> wrote:
Compounding the problem, I think the IRC support crew feel a bit disempowered: The web irc client is part of the website and thus maintained by the website maintainers.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated. I would love to see the irc focused people look after the page so long as the style remains consistent with the website.
The fear I have is that the irc team wish to remove the irc chat plugin because it's inconvenient. Seeing no value in participation from people using the web chat. I'd like to keep irc functionality on the website as it's provides a sense of an unsegregated project. Once we have the mailing lists (and their logs) properly intergrated, the project should feel more like a cohesive whole and not separate channels of communication.
But as Maren has posted, we could do with help too. If there's a good programmer who knows how to integrate IRC into a python based website's backend, then we might be able to use website messages instead of an irc plugin. But that's a pretty big job in itself. There are issues, but I think they're more technical than informational (warnings etc).
Best Regards, Martin Owens
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
On May 23, 2015 10:04 PM, "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Everyone, Wouldn't it be possible to start out with one of the excellent
free
forum softwares that are available? And then at some time, when someone volunteers to create a django forum, couldn't they make it so that all the content can be easily transferred / imported? Or doesn't django already have forums or forum mods (that could be used until we build our own)?
brynn
I hope I don't come off as too aggressive, but site coders aren't magicians.
PHP is not Python etc and while there are existing forum applications already written in Django it'd be more ideal for us to work with the existing models we have on the website than to retrofit another forum app onto the site and pray that it works, then hassle to convert model storage when we need to tweak it.
(It's not even that hard to make a forum: you'd need a backing database and two controllers: a topic controller and a post controller, that pull all of the weight. Bonus points for using ElasticSearch to index it. Only hard thing is a suitable frontend.)
On Sat, May 23, 2015, at 07:40 PM, Liam White wrote:
I hope I don't come off as too aggressive, but site coders aren't magicians.
PHP is not Python etc and while there are existing forum applications already written in Django it'd be more ideal for us to work with the existing models we have on the website than to retrofit another forum app onto the site and pray that it works, then hassle to convert model storage when we need to tweak it.
(It's not even that hard to make a forum: you'd need a backing database and two controllers: a topic controller and a post controller, that pull all of the weight. Bonus points for using ElasticSearch to index it. Only hard thing is a suitable frontend.)
Problem I've seen is that most forums are poor interfaces to feature-shy reimplementations of newsgroups. Getting something useful and actually functional would be key. After a while things start to weigh a community down, like the 'oh no, I've accidentally closed a window now I'll have to spend an hour reading through that thread again to find my spot' classic forum fail, and others.
Simultaneous web and news reader interfaces are actually a viable solution... once the problem is properly understood.
-- Jon A. Cruz jon@...18...
Brynn,
We have a need of both python programmers /and/ systems administrators and I'd argue we have fewer of the latter than the former. So over all it's a more viable solution to build our own than it is to install a php or similar one. Plus it'd be a full duplication of user accounts and all the rest, so it'd be easier to use the existing inkscape forums out there until we had our own.
Martin,
On 23 May 2015 at 23:14, Jon A. Cruz <jon@...18...> wrote:
On Sat, May 23, 2015, at 07:40 PM, Liam White wrote:
I hope I don't come off as too aggressive, but site coders aren't magicians.
PHP is not Python etc and while there are existing forum applications already written in Django it'd be more ideal for us to work with the existing models we have on the website than to retrofit another forum app onto the site and pray that it works, then hassle to convert model storage when we need to tweak it.
(It's not even that hard to make a forum: you'd need a backing database and two controllers: a topic controller and a post controller, that pull all of the weight. Bonus points for using ElasticSearch to index it. Only hard thing is a suitable frontend.)
Problem I've seen is that most forums are poor interfaces to feature-shy reimplementations of newsgroups. Getting something useful and actually functional would be key. After a while things start to weigh a community down, like the 'oh no, I've accidentally closed a window now I'll have to spend an hour reading through that thread again to find my spot' classic forum fail, and others.
Simultaneous web and news reader interfaces are actually a viable solution... once the problem is properly understood.
-- Jon A. Cruz jon@...18...
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I'll bet as a first step, it could be something as simple as running list of comments by logged in users. No topics, categories, searching, or anything.
That appears to be more or less what our Web IRC drive-by's seem to want.
Bryce
On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 11:34:58PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
Brynn,
We have a need of both python programmers /and/ systems administrators and I'd argue we have fewer of the latter than the former. So over all it's a more viable solution to build our own than it is to install a php or similar one. Plus it'd be a full duplication of user accounts and all the rest, so it'd be easier to use the existing inkscape forums out there until we had our own.
Martin,
On 23 May 2015 at 23:14, Jon A. Cruz <jon@...18...> wrote:
On Sat, May 23, 2015, at 07:40 PM, Liam White wrote:
I hope I don't come off as too aggressive, but site coders aren't magicians.
PHP is not Python etc and while there are existing forum applications already written in Django it'd be more ideal for us to work with the existing models we have on the website than to retrofit another forum app onto the site and pray that it works, then hassle to convert model storage when we need to tweak it.
(It's not even that hard to make a forum: you'd need a backing database and two controllers: a topic controller and a post controller, that pull all of the weight. Bonus points for using ElasticSearch to index it. Only hard thing is a suitable frontend.)
Problem I've seen is that most forums are poor interfaces to feature-shy reimplementations of newsgroups. Getting something useful and actually functional would be key. After a while things start to weigh a community down, like the 'oh no, I've accidentally closed a window now I'll have to spend an hour reading through that thread again to find my spot' classic forum fail, and others.
Simultaneous web and news reader interfaces are actually a viable solution... once the problem is properly understood.
-- Jon A. Cruz jon@...18...
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
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Thanks for the discussion, Everyone!
I don't understand most of what you all said. But I can take away that it seems like a bad idea, from the programming perspective, to start with another kind of forum. But thanks for your comments anyway :-)
All best, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 12:19 AM To: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Cc: "Jon A. Cruz" <jon@...18...>; "Inkscape Devel List" inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] website forum?
I'll bet as a first step, it could be something as simple as running list of comments by logged in users. No topics, categories, searching, or anything.
That appears to be more or less what our Web IRC drive-by's seem to want.
Bryce
On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 11:34:58PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
Brynn,
We have a need of both python programmers /and/ systems administrators and I'd argue we have fewer of the latter than the former. So over all it's a more viable solution to build our own than it is to install a php or similar one. Plus it'd be a full duplication of user accounts and all the rest, so it'd be easier to use the existing inkscape forums out there until we had our own.
Martin,
On 23 May 2015 at 23:14, Jon A. Cruz <jon@...18...> wrote:
On Sat, May 23, 2015, at 07:40 PM, Liam White wrote:
I hope I don't come off as too aggressive, but site coders aren't magicians.
PHP is not Python etc and while there are existing forum applications already written in Django it'd be more ideal for us to work with the existing models we have on the website than to retrofit another forum app onto the site and pray that it works, then hassle to convert model storage when we need to tweak it.
(It's not even that hard to make a forum: you'd need a backing database and two controllers: a topic controller and a post controller, that pull all of the weight. Bonus points for using ElasticSearch to index it. Only hard thing is a suitable frontend.)
Problem I've seen is that most forums are poor interfaces to feature-shy reimplementations of newsgroups. Getting something useful and actually functional would be key. After a while things start to weigh a community down, like the 'oh no, I've accidentally closed a window now I'll have to spend an hour reading through that thread again to find my spot' classic forum fail, and others.
Simultaneous web and news reader interfaces are actually a viable solution... once the problem is properly understood.
-- Jon A. Cruz jon@...18...
One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
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I asked some Django friends and they indicated these two forum projects seem like they might make the distance. - http://misago-project.org/ - http://spirit-project.com/
Misago seems quite full featured. Here' s a post on adding IRC announcements for example - http://misago-project.org/thread/irc-bot-integration-369/#post-1144 Misago 0.5 was (in their view) be feature complete. Currently on 0.5.5 (needs postgresql)
On 5/23/2015 12:08 AM, Martin Owens wrote:
Hi Brynn,
I have thought about forums, but forums are a big set of features and I've not had much time to look into that yet. If I were to do them, I'd want them to be the same user account and etc as the existing django website. So it'd probably have to be a django app.
If anyone wants to contribute, please make a forums branch and we can see what's possible.
Martin,
On 22 May 2015 at 03:58, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Friends, I'm replying to the "Re: [Inkscape-devel] Web IRC client - support troubles" thread, but it's sort of a different topic, so I changed the title, so it doesn't get confused.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated.
Speaking of making the community more integrated, in addition to having a chat functionality, I think it would be ideal to have an official forum associated with the website. There are several free forum softwares available, which should be able to be integrated with the site, fairly easily (at least as far as I understand). And some even include chat features, although I don't think any have IRC chat. So having a forum would not necessarily require someone to program it for the website.
I suppose there must be a reason why there's no forum, and why there has been no discussion of a forum, at least as long as I've been helping on the website (and joined the devel list). I don't know what that reason might be, but I would be interested to learn it.
All best, brynn
From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 10:13 AM To: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Cc: "inkscape-devel" <inkscape-devel@...6...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Web IRC client - support troubles
On 20 May 2015 at 01:19, Bryce Harrington <bryce@...961...> wrote:
Compounding the problem, I think the IRC support crew feel a bit disempowered: The web irc client is part of the website and thus maintained by the website maintainers.
The website team have added the feature in order to make the community more integrated. I would love to see the irc focused people look after the page so long as the style remains consistent with the website.
The fear I have is that the irc team wish to remove the irc chat plugin because it's inconvenient. Seeing no value in participation from people using the web chat. I'd like to keep irc functionality on the website as it's provides a sense of an unsegregated project. Once we have the mailing lists (and their logs) properly intergrated, the project should feel more like a cohesive whole and not separate channels of communication.
But as Maren has posted, we could do with help too. If there's a good programmer who knows how to integrate IRC into a python based website's backend, then we might be able to use website messages instead of an irc plugin. But that's a pretty big job in itself. There are issues, but I think they're more technical than informational (warnings etc).
Best Regards, Martin Owens
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participants (9)
-
Bryce Harrington -
Brynn -
Jabier Arraiza -
Jon A. Cruz -
Josh Andler -
Liam White -
Maren Hachmann -
Mark Schafer -
Martin Owens