Fwd: sorting out PS/EPS/PDF export mess
I guess Joshua's message was meant to be sent to the list.
Begin forwarded message:
From: Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art <faceman@...1574...> jiho wrote:
On 2008-March-17 , at 18:12 , J.B.C.Engelen@...1578... wrote:
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] sorting out PS/EPS/PDF export mess
I agree completely with this. It makes sense to "save"/"save as" in svg format, and export anything else, since that's the only format Inkscape actually edits.
BTW, is there a difference between "export" and "save a copy"?
I don't understand the difficulties with the current system. Save = understood Save as = save as different filename. Whatever filetype you want.
To me that's the issue: being able to save current drawing as whatever file type => be annoyed by the nag screen telling you to save it back as svg, and risk data loss if the nag screen is discarded. Why allow the user to shoot him/herself in the foot when there's an easy alternative?
I agree completely. It makes much more sense to have an export function for all filetypes except those one would normally be able to edit directly in Inkscape. This is how most apps implement the save function, from my experience. Any other file format is usually covered under the export function.
I am always saving as pdf, trying to resave my document as an svg, then wondering why in the world pdf isn't an export option - it's a pain in the rear every time I save as pdf.
Save a copy = save as different filename but afterwards stay working on current filename. Again, whatever the type.
This is OK. Just redundant with export. Since there's an export panel, that can stay open all the time, with lots of options already there, I was thinking that integrating all export under it would be the best UI.
I don't think it's redundant after Terry's explanation:
Noooo. :-) "save a copy" is a common option in a lot of apps. for saving backups without changing file names. I.e. your file might be massive_project.svg, and you can use "save a copy" to save massive_project_a.svg, massive_project_b.svg, massive_project_c.svg etc. while you're working in case something goes wrong or you come to regret a design decision. So it's not necessarily related to export at all. I'd say leave it in.
That makes sense, and it's not confusing if it just does a one-time save of the current file in it's current format (which, ideally, would be Inkscape SVG by default, with plain SVG and compressed SVG as alternates).
Well, assuming SVG is also available as export (which it probably should if it can give you the possibility, as with other formats, to export only a part of current drawing) you could just export your work regularly and the result would be the same. One could even imagine having things such as special expressions in the export dialog name which would transform into unique characters e.g. massive_project_%n.svg which would give massive_project_1.svg then massive_project_2.svg and so on. (or you could take advantage of the text-based nature of svg and use a version control system but that's a whole other story ;) )
Bulia, are you already working on this or should we open a blueprint to summarize the ideas and opinions?
JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:28 AM, jiho <jo.irisson@...400...> wrote:
Bulia, are you already working on this or should we open a blueprint to summarize the ideas and opinions?
Please do, it's always helpful. Myself, I don't have a strong opinion on Save/Save as, I just wanted to fix the format names and enable the "Export bitmap" to export vector too.
On 2008-March-18 , at 09:34 , bulia byak wrote:
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 5:28 AM, jiho <jo.irisson@...400...> wrote:
Bulia, are you already working on this or should we open a blueprint to summarize the ideas and opinions?
Please do, it's always helpful. Myself, I don't have a strong opinion on Save/Save as, I just wanted to fix the format names and enable the "Export bitmap" to export vector too.
done: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/inkscape/+spec/save-as-vs-export assigned to you and made it in mode discussion. everyone is welcome to add opinions to the wiki page of course. I meant to do mockups of the export dialog but X11 (hence Inkscape) crashed on me. damn. They will wait (or if someone is proficient with glade, please go ahead, it will be better than Inkscape mockups)
JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/
jiho wrote:
I guess Joshua's message was meant to be sent to the list.
Sorry.
Save a copy = save as different filename but afterwards stay working on current filename. Again, whatever the type.
This is OK. Just redundant with export. Since there's an export panel, that can stay open all the time, with lots of options already there, I was thinking that integrating all export under it would be the best UI.
I don't think it's redundant after Terry's explanation:
Noooo. :-) "save a copy" is a common option in a lot of apps. for saving backups without changing file names. I.e. your file might be massive_project.svg, and you can use "save a copy" to save massive_project_a.svg, massive_project_b.svg, massive_project_c.svg etc. while you're working in case something goes wrong or you come to regret a design decision. So it's not necessarily related to export at all. I'd say leave it in.
That makes sense, and it's not confusing if it just does a one-time save of the current file in it's current format (which, ideally, would be Inkscape SVG by default, with plain SVG and compressed SVG as alternates).
Well, assuming SVG is also available as export (which it probably should if it can give you the possibility, as with other formats, to export only a part of current drawing) you could just export your work regularly and the result would be the same.
But you have the added overhead to your workflow of defining variables in the export dialog. I frequently want to export certain sections/items of the svg repeatedly while also saving copies. I really see the value of having both, in particular if the "save copy" function has an autonumbering option.
One could even imagine having things such as special expressions in the export dialog name which would transform into unique characters e.g. massive_project_%n.svg which would give massive_project_1.svg then massive_project_2.svg and so on. (or you could take advantage of the text-based nature of svg and use a version control system but that's a whole other story ;) )
I think it's a great idea, but in context of "save copy". I think the problem with the current ui is that it's ambiguous and confusing. The functionality is not what is expected. The "save copy" menu item is, IMHO, both useful and not clutter.
JF
Noooo. "save a copy" is a common option in a lot of apps. for saving backups without changing file names. I.e. your file might be massive_project.svg, and you can use "save a copy" to save massive_project_a.svg, massive_project_b.svg, massive_project_c.svg etc. while you're working in case something goes wrong or you come to regret a design decision. So it's not necessarily related to export at all. I'd say leave it in.
That makes sense, and it's not confusing if it just does a one-time save of the current file in it's current format (which, ideally, would be Inkscape SVG by default, with plain SVG and compressed SVG as alternates).
Well, assuming SVG is also available as export (which it probably should if it can give you the possibility, as with other formats, to export only a part of current drawing) you could just export your work regularly and the result would be the same.
But you have the added overhead to your workflow of defining variables in the export dialog. I frequently want to export certain sections/items of the svg repeatedly while also saving copies. I really see the value of having both, in particular if the "save copy" function has an autonumbering option.
One could also imagine that you want to make different types of exports, none of which are saves. Say, you are desinging a web site, and you need to export both as svg for the cool kids and png for the poor souls stuck with antedeluvian webbrowsers.
In such a case, it would be nice to be able to duplicate the export dialog, keep both copies open in the dock, and have the choice between several export buttons. One would then be able to name these instances of exports ("export targets").
Then there would be an export targets dialogs, where one could activate each target, or create new targets. On hitting Ctrl-E, all active targets would be exported. Maybe also make it possible to attribute shortcuts to each target.
Maybe each document could then come with a set of default targets, say "backup to svg", "layers as frames for animation", "each group as a pdf", "each group as a png", "page as pdf", "drawing as pdf", and so on... And also some constructors like "batch target from regexp", which would allow one to specify a regexp, and the target exports all groups whose name matches the regexp into a separate file.
Maybe also allow direct access to the export targets via a submenu.
This would of course prevent "save backup" and "export" to shadow each other: they would be different targets in your export submenu.
Hope it's clear, I really believe this interface would not be half as frightening as it looks, and it would really be powerful.
Florent
Talking about "Save a copy"
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:28:56 +0100 jiho <jo.irisson@...400...> wrote:
Well, assuming SVG is also available as export (which it probably should if it can give you the possibility, as with other formats, to export only a part of current drawing) you could just export your work regularly and the result would be the same. One could even
Anyone with a coding background can think of a dozen ways to save backups, including export and VCS as Florent Becker suggested. What I'm seeing in a few apps. is "Save a copy" becoming part of the standard File menu / Edit menu template that the naive user understands is there for them to easily create safety backups of their work.
imagine having things such as special expressions in the export dialog name which would transform into unique characters e.g. massive_project_%n.svg
This is cool, but given the target audience (everyone) what about having "Save a copy" or "Save a backup" or whatever just automatically offer massive_project_<n>.svg as a filename where <n> is one more than the highest numbered version found. Seems to me expecting people to understand % substitution is asking too much.
Cheers -Terry
Terry Brown wrote:
Talking about "Save a copy"
magine having things such as special expressions in the export dialog name which would transform into unique characters e.g. massive_project_%n.svg
This is cool, but given the target audience (everyone) what about having "Save a copy" or "Save a backup" or whatever just automatically offer massive_project_<n>.svg as a filename where <n> is one more than the highest numbered version found. Seems to me expecting people to understand % substitution is asking too much.
But it would have to be an option. Or maybe a separate menu item could be "save incremental copy) or some such thing which would query existing files (as you specify above). It might be more menu clutter, but it might be really useful, too.
JF
On 2008-March-18 , at 16:15 , Terry Brown wrote:
Talking about "Save a copy"
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:28:56 +0100 jiho <jo.irisson@...400...> wrote:
Well, assuming SVG is also available as export (which it probably should if it can give you the possibility, as with other formats, to export only a part of current drawing) you could just export your work regularly and the result would be the same. One could even
Anyone with a coding background can think of a dozen ways to save backups, including export and VCS as Florent Becker suggested. What I'm seeing in a few apps. is "Save a copy" becoming part of the standard File menu / Edit menu template that the naive user understands is there for them to easily create safety backups of their work.
imagine having things such as special expressions in the export dialog name which would transform into unique characters e.g. massive_project_%n.svg
This is cool, but given the target audience (everyone) what about having "Save a copy" or "Save a backup" or whatever just automatically offer massive_project_<n>.svg as a filename where <n> is one more than the highest numbered version found. Seems to me expecting people to understand % substitution is asking too much.
Yes that could be a good idea. My opinion is that most things should not be duplicated in the UI, and saving files in one of such things[1]. That's why I think there must be only _one_ way to save your file to PDF for example. Now if "save a copy" becomes "save a backup", that's another functionality, that may deserve its spot in the UI. Please add your thoughts to the blueprint.
I would argue however, that I think people can figure out the %n thing if it is explained --in a tooltip or so-- because that's not so complicated after all (and the UI could help f we really want to, with a button that says:"insert unique identifier" or something, in the file chooser dialog). Plus, basing this system on plain text special expression would be much more powerful: after all, if you have %n, you could have %a which generates a letter, %h%m%s which generate current time etc. I think that such power should not be sacrificed for the sole sake of "keeping things simple for the newbie", especially when said functionality is easily hidden from the eyes of said newbie (after all, no one is forced to use %n). That's something which, seemingly, drove a bit Inkscape UI design until now (but the people who actually designed it are probably more suited than me to comment on that ;) ). For example, many editing modes are accessible by key combinations (= the effect of Alt and Ctrl and such in each tool) which is probably not the most newbie friendly way of doing things (and plain big button on the toolbar would have been easier). However, since it is kind of hidden it does not scare the user away and, in the end, it shows that it pays off to learn the software. You get the impression of Inkscape being more and more powerful as you discover it (and you also get the impression of becoming smarter and smarter, which is nice) so it creates a certain dynamic and keeps you enjoying the software. I'll try the parallel once more even if I risk being called an advocate or something, but this is also what Apple gets right in its UI design (the good parts at least): keep things simple at first sight and pour enough power behind the scenes to keep the advanced user happy at the same time.
OK, I digressed waaaay too much. Bye
[1]Actually, I think nothing should be duplicated unless there's a very good reason for it. In Inkscape, apart from editing functions that are more efficiently reaches in different situations, there's not really a point in having 10 ways to do the same thing. But that's just me of course.
JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/
jiho wrote:
I would argue however, that I think people can figure out the %n thing if it is explained --in a tooltip or so-- because that's not so complicated after all (and the UI could help f we really want to, with a button that says:"insert unique identifier" or something, in the file chooser dialog). Plus, basing this system on plain text special expression would be much more powerful: after all, if you have %n, you could have %a which generates a letter, %h%m%s which generate current time etc. I think that such power should not be sacrificed for the sole sake of "keeping things simple for the newbie", especially when said functionality is easily hidden from the eyes of said newbie (after all, no one is forced to use %n).
This sounds like a good scheme. The more I think about it, the more I like having a "save incremental copy" or something as a menu item. But I think it should be a simple, automatic thing, like "save" is. So, maybe the way to do this is to have a preferences section which allows one to specify the expression for the incremental save, with options for whatever is possible (plain number, date, geographic location taken from your usb gps dongle). Keeps it both simple and powerful.
JF
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:25:12 -0500 Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art <faceman@...1574...> wrote:
jiho wrote:
I would argue however, that I think people can figure out the %n thing if it is explained --in a tooltip or so-- because that's not so complicated after all
Yeah, but there's a great mass of users out there who've been been conditioned to believe they shouldn't have to deal with anything more complicated than a mouse click.
So, maybe the way to do this is to have a preferences section which allows one to specify the expression for the incremental save, with options for whatever is possible (plain number, date, geographic location taken from your usb gps dongle). Keeps it both simple and powerful.
That's a great idea - the preferences entry would be a natural place to have the text or popup docs on the substitution syntax.
Cheers -Terry
On 2008-March-18 , at 21:49 , Terry Brown wrote:
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:25:12 -0500 Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art <faceman@...1574...> wrote:
jiho wrote:
I would argue however, that I think people can figure out the %n thing if it is explained --in a tooltip or so-- because that's not so complicated after all
Yeah, but there's a great mass of users out there who've been been conditioned to believe they shouldn't have to deal with anything more complicated than a mouse click.
I know... and I don't think it is a good thing to keep them thinking this way! Showing them how, by going a little off track, and use 2 of their neurones (maybe a bit more, okay ;) ), they can get large benefits is the best way to avoid mouse-click-mania. And if some people absolutely want clicks and treat Inkscape with despise of insults (as it is sometimes seen in the bug tracker)... well they can use something else, can't they ;)
So, maybe the way to do this is to have a preferences section which allows one to specify the expression for the incremental save, with options for whatever is possible (plain number, date, geographic location taken from your usb gps dongle). Keeps it both simple and powerful.
That's a great idea - the preferences entry would be a natural place to have the text or popup docs on the substitution syntax.
I would prefer to have it handy directly in the export dialogue, but at this point it's probably detail.
JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/
jiho wrote:
So, maybe the way to do this is to have a preferences section which allows one to specify the expression for the incremental save, with options for whatever is possible (plain number, date, geographic location taken from your usb gps dongle). Keeps it both simple and powerful.
That's a great idea - the preferences entry would be a natural place to have the text or popup docs on the substitution syntax.
I would prefer to have it handy directly in the export dialogue, but at this point it's probably detail.
Hmm, another possibility (which actually might be a bit confusing, but might work well) is to have the incremental copy options available on the export dialog, but make sure they are saved as a "sticky" option, and then have an incremental copy key command (such as Ctrl-Shft+Alt+I) which uses that option without bringing up the dialog. I'm trying to save the overhead of interrupting workflow while compromising on minimizing the clutter in the menu.
As far as that goes, the current "Save a copy" key command could do a similar thing, e.g. bring up the export dialog (complete with full file chooser) with the working file type and appropriate options preselected.
JF
participants (5)
-
bulia byak -
florent becker -
jiho -
Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art -
Terry Brown