Re: [Inkscape-devel] Window Manager Modifiers
On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 12:02 +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
well... this is no new problem. it's been around for years. in the end - the wm's win, because you need one for a sane desktop. whatever they steal in terms of key (and mouse) bindings is what a user comes to EXPECT from functionality on ALL their windows (eg - alt+left mouse to move, alt+right mouse for wm window menu etc.). there is a kind of pseudo-standard (just by virtue that a lot of wm's come this way by default) that there seems to be a common convention that alt + button is what wm's take - anything else if open for apps.
I guess my real concern is that it's alt today, meta tomorrow and control next week? It seems like in general that there should be some consistency here. That way someone knows where their mouse events are going (though I doubt they'll think about it that way).
now i ask - why do u think it's bad apps use met - but you now promote wm's to use it instead of alt? you are basically saying "i don't want to use meta - so i want to force wm's to do the thing i am not willing to". at the end of the day
- this is highly unfair as your point about the meta key being "not always
there" is valid - and all you do is put the problem onto the wm's.
No, the reason that I was suggesting that a WM use meta is because in general, I think the desktop knows a lot more about the hardware that it's working with. Application do, and should, know very little. Things like accessibility and keyboard configuration are done at a desktop/WM level -- so I thought it would make more sense to also use, or not use, the meta key at that level. I believe that there are also internationalization issues here, though I'm ignorant to other keyboard layouts myself.
personally- i think you need to find a way to do what you need without needing more and more modifier keys. i know a lot of wm's will keep being shipped using alt+button because they have been shipped that way for 10+ years. it's been a default feature for a decade and it's not going away. you need to find a way to work with it. i would SOONER specify "alt + button is reserved for wm's - apps need to use anything else" because wm's "were there first", "steal the buttons before your app can do anything about it" and "it's an incredibly useful feature to have on ALL windows" as opposed to losing it on ALL windows just so 1 app can have more bindings.
If that's the case, I think FreeDesktop should have something that says that. I think we should give as many bindings as possible to apps in general.
the only sensible suggestion here i think is some form of hint on the window that says "i use alt+button 1, alt+button 2, ctrl+button 1 etc." so the wm MIGHT be nice and disable any of its own bindings if they conflict - just on that window. the problem here now is inconsistent UI experience and control - i go to my inkscape window and press alt+button 1 to drag the window and it doesn't - it does something else. the element of least surprise is violated. every window i have does it - except this one now. so though it is technically solvable to give you bindings back - it now leads to a bad UI experience and users i think will be better off if you try and stick to the pseudo-conventions in-place? remember this problem exists for key bindings as well - you could complain that "wm's steal alt+tab from apps - i want wm's to stop that so i can get more key combinations for my app". it's not going to happen - there are many common key-bindings too that wm's use and there are pseudo-conventions there.
I agree that the bindings should not be overloaded. The only way I could see this making sense is if the WM provided some sort of feedback to the user that they have been overloaded -- and icon on the title bar or something. But, I think in general that would be confusing.
I general, today we are seeing that confusion. People regularly e-mail the Inkscape lists complaining they can't get features to work (not only alt-mouse) because those keys are stolen by the WM or Desktop or whatever. This is a more than minorly annoying support issue.
--Ted
Hello everyone,
First of all, it was not my intention to start a flame war or anything. It is just my personal opinion that what lacks the more cruelly to Linux desktop currently is consistency and keybindings is one particularly clear example. I hoped that mentioning it on this list, where the problem is regularly brought up, would get the ball rolling to the correct people (be they freedesktop or someone else). Anyway, I happily use Mac OS X (where keybindings are quite consistent and can be edited easily anyway) and won't "fight" for linux to get better... I just hope it will, because I like the development model more ;-)
That said, here are my two more cents (or maybe three...)
Some quick math first: suppressing a key from the three available to applications does not suppresses only a third of the possibilities, indeed those things are multiplicative. With 2 modifiers and 10 keys on a keyboard you have 2 * 10 + 1 * 10 = 30 possibilites (2 modifs, 1 combination). With three you now have 3 * 10 + 3 * 10 + 1 * 10 = 70 possibilites (3 modifs, 3 two-way combinations, 1 three-way combination). Now add the mouse and things are getting worse. So the decision here is important as it severely impacts the applications.
On 2007-August-04 , at 05:31 , Ted Gould wrote:
On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 12:02 +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
well... this is no new problem. it's been around for years. in the end - the wm's win, because you need one for a sane desktop. whatever they steal in terms of key (and mouse) bindings is what a user comes to EXPECT from functionality on ALL their windows (eg - alt+left mouse to move, alt+right mouse for wm window menu etc.). there is a kind of pseudo-standard (just by virtue that a lot of wm's come this way by default) that there seems to be a common convention that alt + button is what wm's take - anything else if open for apps.
I guess my real concern is that it's alt today, meta tomorrow and control next week? It seems like in general that there should be some consistency here. That way someone knows where their mouse events are going (though I doubt they'll think about it that way).
If I recall correctly (and I am quite sure I do) Gnome also uses CTRL in some keybindings so this can indeed be an additional problems (see the quick computation above)
now i ask - why do u think it's bad apps use met - but you now promote wm's to use it instead of alt? you are basically saying "i don't want to use meta - so i want to force wm's to do the thing i am not willing to". at the end of the day
- this is highly unfair as your point about the meta key being
"not always there" is valid - and all you do is put the problem onto the wm's.
No, the reason that I was suggesting that a WM use meta is because in general, I think the desktop knows a lot more about the hardware that it's working with. Application do, and should, know very little. Things like accessibility and keyboard configuration are done at a desktop/WM level -- so I thought it would make more sense to also use, or not use, the meta key at that level. I believe that there are also internationalization issues here, though I'm ignorant to other keyboard layouts myself.
Let's assume everyone agrees that WM/Desktop and Applications keybindings must be separate (I think that's quite safe). Now the question is which modifier for which, and the choice is between ALT and META. Here are a few reasons why I think ALT is better for applications and META for WM: - keyboard proximity. CTRL is *the* application level shortcut and ALT is closer to CTRL than META on all keyboards I've seen, so CTRL +ALT combinations for applications seems more natural than CTRL+META - WM keyboard shortcuts they are kind of special since they apply across the board and to me META carries this idea of "special". - META "uncertainty". as some pointed out, META isn't always available (though I think it must be a very small minority of cases, since I've seen some pretty exotic Sun and IBM keyboards and there's always a META key somewhere, sometimes where CAPS LOCK usually is) or may change "appearance" (it is the WIN key on windows PC keyboards, the apple key on macs, a real META key on some others etc.). So it may be less accessible. . as Ted just pointed out, it is easier to fix its absence (ie. remap some other key) at the desktop level than at the application level . the annoyance it creates when it changes position or form is restricted to one area (windows manipulations) instead of applying to several keybindings in several apps. it is, in my opinion, easier to re-learn. . even if it is completely absent, or difficult to reach, most window managing actions can be performed with mouse clicks and drags, on windows or in menus. In fact, most people do not actually use window manager keyboard shortcuts. This is not the case for many places where ALT is currently used in Inkscape (or in Gimp for that matter). Some important things are simply *not possible* if you don't have a second independent modifier in Inkscape or Gimp. And this is not a problem of design in either apps, it's just that there are so many things to do that you need many modifiers (I tried to report everything that can be done with the selector tool in Inkscape and its associated modifiers and this is already very complex and nearly saturated). I am not saying that WM/Desktop keyboard shortcuts are useless, I am just saying that they are probably less numerous than what a large app would need so it is less pain if they are difficult to reach or need to be re-learned.
So there is history carrying over its early habits and there is what some "unifying" projects like FreeDesktop can specify, and maybe change, in the name of better overall usability. I think this issue is typical of the second case and I hope my examples have convinced some about this.
Cheers,
JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/
participants (2)
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jiho -
Ted Gould