Hi Bulia,
I'm wondering about the use of both Shift and Control for the right drag panning mode. Is there a reason both have been used?
I've just implemented it in Scribus using the Control right drag version but tbh I don't think we need both Shift and Control versions. Does Inkscape? It doesn't seem to differentiate.
cya Craig
On Thursday 15 December 2005 22:20, Craig Bradney wrote:
Hi Bulia,
I'm wondering about the use of both Shift and Control for the right drag panning mode. Is there a reason both have been used?
I've just implemented it in Scribus using the Control right drag version but tbh I don't think we need both Shift and Control versions. Does Inkscape? It doesn't seem to differentiate.
Err.. no comments?
Craig
On 12/17/05, Craig Bradney <cbradney@...242...> wrote:
On Thursday 15 December 2005 22:20, Craig Bradney wrote:
Hi Bulia,
I'm wondering about the use of both Shift and Control for the right drag panning mode. Is there a reason both have been used?
I've just implemented it in Scribus using the Control right drag version but tbh I don't think we need both Shift and Control versions. Does Inkscape? It doesn't seem to differentiate.
Sorry for a delay... no, there's no meaningful difference between ctrl and shift. Perhaps someone suggested one and someone another, so I added both. It might however make sense to differentiate them - now that shift+middle does zooming into area, perhaps we can switch ctrl+right to zooming as well, for those who have no middle button.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
On Saturday 17 December 2005 23:35, bulia byak wrote:
On 12/17/05, Craig Bradney <cbradney@...242...> wrote:
On Thursday 15 December 2005 22:20, Craig Bradney wrote:
Hi Bulia,
I'm wondering about the use of both Shift and Control for the right drag panning mode. Is there a reason both have been used?
I've just implemented it in Scribus using the Control right drag version but tbh I don't think we need both Shift and Control versions. Does Inkscape? It doesn't seem to differentiate.
Sorry for a delay... no, there's no meaningful difference between ctrl and shift. Perhaps someone suggested one and someone another, so I added both. It might however make sense to differentiate them - now that shift+middle does zooming into area, perhaps we can switch ctrl+right to zooming as well, for those who have no middle button.
Why would you want more than one mouse combination? (I thought mice with less than 4 legs or 3 buttons had been left to Darwin).
This is only confusing the situation, as well as making it harder for other apps to align themselves to the same method if something is implemented into them.
Craig
On 12/17/05, Craig Bradney <cbradney@...242...> wrote:
Why would you want more than one mouse combination? (I thought mice with less than 4 legs or 3 buttons had been left to Darwin).
People claim that there are laptops without a middle button. I've never had a laptop so I don't really know.
This is only confusing the situation, as well as making it harder for other apps to align themselves to the same method if something is implemented into them.
No, providing multiple keys for the same action is not confusing, if that action is very basic, such as panning.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
On 12/18/05, bulia byak wrote:
People claim that there are laptops without a middle button. I've never had a laptop so I don't really know.
People claim that pressing two buttons of a touchpad is an equivalent ;)
This is only confusing the situation, as well as making it harder for other apps to align themselves to the same method if something is implemented into them.
No, providing multiple keys for the same action is not confusing, if that action is very basic, such as panning.
True :)
Alexandre
On Dec 18, 2005, at 1:02 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On 12/18/05, bulia byak wrote:
People claim that there are laptops without a middle button. I've never had a laptop so I don't really know.
People claim that pressing two buttons of a touchpad is an equivalent ;)
Depends on the OS, and the touchpad and the software in play.
Sometimes that works, often it doesn't.
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Craig Bradney wrote:
[...]
Why would you want more than one mouse combination? (I thought mice with less than 4 legs or 3 buttons had been left to Darwin).
Think pen and tablet devices. Many laptops have touchpads with only two buttons. I'm sure there are more mouse like devices out there (think accessibility devices) so I don't think you assume everyone has a 3 button mouse anytime soon.
- Alan
On Monday 19 December 2005 19:13, Alan Horkan wrote:
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Craig Bradney wrote:
[...]
Why would you want more than one mouse combination? (I thought mice with less than 4 legs or 3 buttons had been left to Darwin).
Think pen and tablet devices. Many laptops have touchpads with only two buttons. I'm sure there are more mouse like devices out there (think accessibility devices) so I don't think you assume everyone has a 3 button mouse anytime soon.
I still think multiple mouse shortcuts or action is confusing to the user and while I'm not sure what other developers are doing, I'm not prepared to waste every second shortcut or modifier key in an already limited environment. What if I come across a completely valid different operation for one of the existing shortcuts and need to use it for that, which would I choose?
I can understand the pen and tablet devices, but since when did that require the option of both shift or control modifiers for this mouse operation?
I must add, I'm not particularly worried if Inkscape devs keep this, but perhaps you might provide a preferred option for those developing other software to follow. Remember other OSS programs have other needs and other commercial packages to keep up with/overtake.
Craig
On 12/19/05, Craig Bradney <cbradney@...242...> wrote:
I still think multiple mouse shortcuts or action is confusing to the user and while I'm not sure what other developers are doing, I'm not prepared to waste every second shortcut or modifier key in an already limited environment. What if I come across a completely valid different operation for one of the existing shortcuts and need to use it for that, which would I choose?
Simple - just ask users and follow the consensus. That's what we do.
I can understand the pen and tablet devices, but since when did that require the option of both shift or control modifiers for this mouse operation?
I don't understand this question.
I must add, I'm not particularly worried if Inkscape devs keep this, but perhaps you might provide a preferred option for those developing other software to follow. Remember other OSS programs have other needs and other commercial packages to keep up with/overtake.
We do not force our keys on anyone. We choose them because they are convenient. If you think they are convenient, copy them, otherwise don't.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
I can understand the pen and tablet devices, but since when did that require the option of both shift or control modifiers for this mouse operation?
I don't understand this question.
My question was never about a particular mouse button choice.. but the choice of providing both shift and control modifiers to select the right click panning mode.
Anyway, I'm giving up on this issue, I only set out to get a decent explanation.
We do not force our keys on anyone. We choose them because they are convenient. If you think they are convenient, copy them, otherwise don't.
Yes, but once again theres no give from the Inkscape side. You are right, of course!
Craig
On 12/19/05, Craig Bradney <cbradney@...242...> wrote:
My question was never about a particular mouse button choice.. but the choice of providing both shift and control modifiers to select the right click panning mode.
But I explained that - it was only because nothing else useful was at that time suggested for them, so both were used for the same thing. Of course this approach should not be used for just any function, but panning is special. I see nothing wrong about "filling" the unused mouse drag modes with panning. It's kinda natural.
Now, however, I plan to switch Shift+rmb from panning to zooming into area, to make it more consistent with mmb and to make more functions easily available for people without mmb. If there are no objections, I'll go ahead with that. Again, I see nothing wrong with reusing one of the essentially "parked" shortcuts for something else after we finally invented what for.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
On Tuesday 20 December 2005 00:53, bulia byak wrote:
On 12/19/05, Craig Bradney <cbradney@...242...> wrote:
My question was never about a particular mouse button choice.. but the choice of providing both shift and control modifiers to select the right click panning mode.
But I explained that - it was only because nothing else useful was at that time suggested for them, so both were used for the same thing. Of course this approach should not be used for just any function, but panning is special. I see nothing wrong about "filling" the unused mouse drag modes with panning. It's kinda natural.
Now, however, I plan to switch Shift+rmb from panning to zooming into area, to make it more consistent with mmb and to make more functions easily available for people without mmb. If there are no objections, I'll go ahead with that. Again, I see nothing wrong with reusing one of the essentially "parked" shortcuts for something else after we finally invented what for.
Ok, thanks. I guess I just don't see filling up as required but thats cool.
Craig
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:53:42 -0400 From: bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> To: Craig Bradney <cbradney@...242...> Cc: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Panning mode modifier keys
On 12/19/05, Craig Bradney <cbradney@...242...> wrote:
My question was never about a particular mouse button choice.. but the choice of providing both shift and control modifiers to select the right click panning mode.
But I explained that - it was only because nothing else useful was at that time suggested for them, so both were used for the same thing. Of course this approach should not be used for just any function, but panning is special. I see nothing wrong about "filling" the unused mouse drag modes with panning. It's kinda natural.
Now, however, I plan to switch Shift+rmb from panning to zooming into area, to make it more consistent with mmb and to make more functions easily available for people without mmb. If there are no objections,
No objections at this time (except that I fear anything you do will be extremely difficult to change later once people get used it) but I do wonder what inspired this choice of keybinding because I feel much safer when you choose keybindings at least one other application is already using.
I'll go ahead with that. Again, I see nothing wrong with reusing one of the essentially "parked" shortcuts for something else after we finally invented what for.
I think what Craig was getting at was you might want to use these keys for something else later. Changing keys people are comfortable with can be very difficult as you well know ;P so it might be better to leave them unused for now and pick whichever one is more important or consistent with another application.
Also if another project copied the bindings in Inkscape but we later discovered the consensus (and users of existing applications) expected something quite different changing it could be problematic.
- Alan
participants (5)
-
Alan Horkan -
Alexandre Prokoudine -
bulia byak -
Craig Bradney -
Jon A. Cruz