Hi Friends, I've been helping Martin on the inkscape.org website. And that somehow has grown to include the wiki. But of course, I'm glad to help. He says user info, such as forums, tutorials and galleries should not be part of the wiki, so that the wiki is only for developers. I've already transferred (and updated!) some of that user-related stuff to a test page for the website (http://staging.inkscape.org/en/brynntest/?edit&language=en). (I think all the galleries need to be moved to another page, but that hasn't been decided yet, that I know of.) (If the Community page looks like that, then the Learn page would look like this http://staging.inkscape.org/en/brynns-learn-page/?edit&language=en). Anyway, there is a *whole bunch* of user-related stuff in the wiki, and he said it would be better to ask the community about some of these questions. Since the current FAQ, which is shown both in the wiki and on the website, has as much user-related info as developer info, it needs to be split into 2 FAQs, which I've just started working on. (Maybe the user faq would be on the Learn page?) I find that the answer to item 2.11 (Is there a way to apply a gradient to a stroke so that it bends with the stroke?), links to 2 images, which are no longer there. If I knew what the author of that faq item was talking about, I could substitute some other images. I sort of know what the text is alluding to, but without the images, it's not clear. There are at least 3 or 4 ways that I know of, to fake a curved gradient (although maybe just a couple specifically for a stroke). And I can certainly describe each one (in the answer). And I know that there is a tutorial packed with Inkscape (share/examples/rope-3D.svg), which I can provide directions for readers to find. But the community is FULL of really nice tutorials. I know that, because of my research in writing this page on my Inkscape support website http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php. And coincidentally, I just wrote a tutorial on one of these techniques. So my first question: When I come across bad links, (dead, empty, not found pages, etc), what would be the best way to handle it? Can I link to any appropriate image or tutorial? Or should the links only go to "official" resources? What if those "official" resources don't exist? The 2nd question: When I come across answers to user-related questions in the FAQ, such as item 2.21 (Can I change the Inkscape theme?) where the answer is in wiki, what should I do? In this case, the answer provides a link to here: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Customizing_Inkscape which is a fairly substantial page in the wiki. If that info should not be in the wiki, where should it be? Should I write all that info from the wiki page, in the answer in the faq? Thanks for your help. And btw, since I'm such a newbie to the mailing list, please let me know if I say or do something wrong.
All best, brynn
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 05:11:02PM -0600, Brynn wrote:
Hi Friends, I've been helping Martin on the inkscape.org website. And that somehow has grown to include the wiki. But of course, I'm glad to help. He says user info, such as forums, tutorials and galleries should not be part of the wiki, so that the wiki is only for developers. I've already transferred (and updated!) some of that user-related stuff to a test page for the website (http://staging.inkscape.org/en/brynntest/?edit&language=en). (I think all the galleries need to be moved to another page, but that hasn't been decided yet, that I know of.) (If the Community page looks like that, then the Learn page would look like this http://staging.inkscape.org/en/brynns-learn-page/?edit&language=en). Anyway, there is a *whole bunch* of user-related stuff in the wiki, and he said it would be better to ask the community about some of these questions.
Hi Brynn, thanks so much for your help on all of this!
Since the current FAQ, which is shown both in the wiki and on thewebsite, has as much user-related info as developer info, it needs to be split into 2 FAQs, which I've just started working on. (Maybe the user faq would be on the Learn page?)
Seems sensible for the user FAQ to be there under Learn. Often projects will place the FAQ at a top level, which would be fine too if there's room.
Long term it doesn't really make sense to have two copies of the FAQ, if each is going to have to be maintained independently. So I think it would be a good idea for e.g. the FAQ in wiki to be limited to just developer stuff, and the FAQ in django contain the remaining non-developer stuff.
Section 3 is probably a bit TMI for users, even though we'd *like* users to know all this stuff. Perhaps pick out a handful of the most user-useful Q&A's for the django faq, and move the remainder to the wiki FAQ.
Section 4 probably sounds like it should go to the developer FAQ but actually it's a recruitment hook to encourage users to become developers, so it really should belong in the user faq. Question 4.3 can be dropped I think (it's just providing a link which has bitrotted). 4.4 doesn't belong and can go to the developer FAQ if it's even still relevant.
I find that the answer to item 2.11 (Is there a way to apply agradient to a stroke so that it bends with the stroke?), links to 2 images, which are no longer there. If I knew what the author of that faq item was talking about, I could substitute some other images. I sort of know what the text is alluding to, but without the images, it's not clear. There are at least 3 or 4 ways that I know of, to fake a curved gradient (although maybe just a couple specifically for a stroke). And I can certainly describe each one (in the answer). And I know that there is a tutorial packed with Inkscape (share/examples/rope-3D.svg), which I can provide directions for readers to find. But the community is FULL of really nice tutorials. I know that, because of my research in writing this page on my Inkscape support website http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php. And coincidentally, I just wrote a tutorial on one of these techniques.
It's a good point that there's plenty of good tutorials out there. Our software documentation is also a lot better than when this FAQ was initially written, too.
Don't be shy about curating. If you find FAQ items that are relatively advanced or obscure questions but that are already adequately covered by the official documentation, just drop those questions.
Similarly, if you follow the user list or the #inkscape user channel and see questions being asked a lot (and that sound likely to continue being asked long in the future), consider adding Q&A's for those.
If there are items which are really just bugs, and we have bug reports open on them, then that item probably would be better mentioned on Release Notes in the Known Issues section, along with any workarounds. It would be useful to have an item in the FAQ that recommends users check the Known Issues for the release they're using.
There should also be a Q&A for people looking for more specific tips and tricks for using Inkscape, to a page with a listing of Tutorials. We probably shouldn't directly link to specific tutorials since a) the links would bitrot, and b) we'd have requests to add links to more and more tutorials.
So my first question: When I come across bad links, (dead, empty,not found pages, etc), what would be the best way to handle it? Can I link to any appropriate image or tutorial? Or should the links only go to "official" resources? What if those "official" resources don't exist?
Use your best judgment, but if you restrict to only linking to official resources then that should make future maintenance easier since there theoretically should be less bitrot.
As to current links to missing official resources, those items are probably around *someplace*. It may be just that the URL has changed due to server movements. Or it might be recoverable from bzr or sourceforge svn. I also have old backups of previous incarnations of the website. If you give me some specific link examples I can help chase down where things may have moved to.
The 2nd question: When I come across answers to user-relatedquestions in the FAQ, such as item 2.21 (Can I change the Inkscape theme?) where the answer is in wiki, what should I do? In this case, the answer provides a link to here: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Customizing_Inkscape which is a fairly substantial page in the wiki. If that info should not be in the wiki, where should it be? Should I write all that info from the wiki page, in the answer in the faq?
I think it's a bit too much for the FAQ. The contents of that wiki page looks like it really ought to be part of some official documentation, like the man page or something. Also I think it probably isn't that 'frequent' of a question so once it's in the program documentation it can be dropped from the FAQ.
There might be a few other FAQ items like this, that should just move to proper docs.
Thanks for your help. And btw, since I'm such a newbie to themailing list, please let me know if I say or do something wrong.
Welcome to the list! Great post. :-)
Bryce
Thanks Bryce.
"> Similarly, if you follow the user list or the #inkscape user channel and
see questions being asked a lot (and that sound likely to continue being asked long in the future), consider adding Q&A's for those."
I recently subscribed to the user list, but I didn't even know about #inkscape user channel. That's an IRC channel...or....that's not twitter, is it? (Sorry, I don't participate in the whole social media thing.) However, I'm quite familiar with messages posted in forums, and somewhat with messages posted in Launchpad Answers.
"> Section 3 is probably a bit TMI for users, even though we'd *like* users
to know all this stuff. Perhaps pick out a handful of the most user-useful Q&A's for the django faq, and move the remainder to the wiki FAQ."
Some of those items in section 3, I've seen asked over and over and over again -- Alt key on Linux, and all those Mac issues, and opening EPS in Windows, in particular. But I'll try to pare it down some.
"> There should also be a Q&A for people looking for more specific tips and
tricks for using Inkscape, to a page with a listing of Tutorials. We probably shouldn't directly link to specific tutorials since a) the links would bitrot, and b) we'd have requests to add links to more and more tutorials."
Good idea. My intent for the tutorials listed on my website, is to keep up and keep track of them. So that if a tutorial disappears from the internet, I'll delete it from my list. Same goes for if a tutorial becomes too outdated to be useful anymore. And I would be glad to do the same for inkscape.org. However, I agree that using "outside" tutorials to answer FAQs, could generate requests for more "outside" links, and should be avoided.
I'll make a list of the bad links (dead, empty, not found pages) (which I guess is what you mean by "bitrot"), and send them to you. Maybe you can find them somewhere.
Speaking of a listing of tutorials -- would those be only "official" tutorials? Or should all kinds of outside tutorials (such as listed on my webpage) be found on the Tutorials page? Already, there are lots of tutorials from a deviantART feed that Martin set up (which are "outside" tutorials). But with such a listing of outside tutorials, again, you'll have the bitrot issue, and possible frequent requests to be listed.
"Our
software documentation is also a lot better than when this FAQ was initially written, too."
and regarding the Customizing Inkscape faq item "> There might be a few other FAQ items like this, that should just move to
proper docs."
and "Also I think it probably isn't that
'frequent' of a question so once it's in the program documentation it can be dropped from the FAQ."
Are you suggesting that if documentation for an faq item exists, that it should be deleted from the faq? Or that the answer should be deleted, and instead should link to the documentation?
Because I think a lot of people, maybe even most people, think of an FAQ for just exactly that "frequently asked questions". Perhaps the faq has been used in the past, as a place for developers to put answers, and for users to find answers, when no other documentation exists. But I'm not sure taking it completely out of the faq would be appropriate, if it truly is asked for frequently. For customizing Inkscape, I can say that it is asked surprisingly often! I've even heard people say they won't use Inkscape unless they can have a customized theme! (Of course, imo, that's their problem, but it is a fairly common topic.) (And btw, easily customizable themes, or "skins", is a much wished-for feature!)
Anyway, thanks for your guidance. I get so much enjoyment from Inkscape, and I'm happy to be able to help out, in some way.
brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 1:38 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...> Cc: "Inkscape-Devel" Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] splitting FAQ in 2
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 05:11:02PM -0600, Brynn wrote:
Hi Friends, I've been helping Martin on the inkscape.org website. And that somehow has grown to include the wiki. But of course, I'm glad to help. He says user info, such as forums, tutorials and galleries should not be part of the wiki, so that the wiki is only for developers. I've already transferred (and updated!) some of that user-related stuff to a test page for the website (http://staging.inkscape.org/en/brynntest/?edit&language=en). (I think all the galleries need to be moved to another page, but that hasn't been decided yet, that I know of.) (If the Community page looks like that, then the Learn page would look like this http://staging.inkscape.org/en/brynns-learn-page/?edit&language=en). Anyway, there is a *whole bunch* of user-related stuff in the wiki, and he said it would be better to ask the community about some of these questions.
Hi Brynn, thanks so much for your help on all of this!
Since the current FAQ, which is shown both in the wiki and on thewebsite, has as much user-related info as developer info, it needs to be split into 2 FAQs, which I've just started working on. (Maybe the user faq would be on the Learn page?)
Seems sensible for the user FAQ to be there under Learn. Often projects will place the FAQ at a top level, which would be fine too if there's room.
Long term it doesn't really make sense to have two copies of the FAQ, if each is going to have to be maintained independently. So I think it would be a good idea for e.g. the FAQ in wiki to be limited to just developer stuff, and the FAQ in django contain the remaining non-developer stuff.
Section 3 is probably a bit TMI for users, even though we'd *like* users to know all this stuff. Perhaps pick out a handful of the most user-useful Q&A's for the django faq, and move the remainder to the wiki FAQ.
Section 4 probably sounds like it should go to the developer FAQ but actually it's a recruitment hook to encourage users to become developers, so it really should belong in the user faq. Question 4.3 can be dropped I think (it's just providing a link which has bitrotted). 4.4 doesn't belong and can go to the developer FAQ if it's even still relevant.
I find that the answer to item 2.11 (Is there a way to apply agradient to a stroke so that it bends with the stroke?), links to 2 images, which are no longer there. If I knew what the author of that faq item was talking about, I could substitute some other images. I sort of know what the text is alluding to, but without the images, it's not clear. There are at least 3 or 4 ways that I know of, to fake a curved gradient (although maybe just a couple specifically for a stroke). And I can certainly describe each one (in the answer). And I know that there is a tutorial packed with Inkscape (share/examples/rope-3D.svg), which I can provide directions for readers to find. But the community is FULL of really nice tutorials. I know that, because of my research in writing this page on my Inkscape support website http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php. And coincidentally, I just wrote a tutorial on one of these techniques.
It's a good point that there's plenty of good tutorials out there. Our software documentation is also a lot better than when this FAQ was initially written, too.
Don't be shy about curating. If you find FAQ items that are relatively advanced or obscure questions but that are already adequately covered by the official documentation, just drop those questions.
Similarly, if you follow the user list or the #inkscape user channel and see questions being asked a lot (and that sound likely to continue being asked long in the future), consider adding Q&A's for those.
If there are items which are really just bugs, and we have bug reports open on them, then that item probably would be better mentioned on Release Notes in the Known Issues section, along with any workarounds. It would be useful to have an item in the FAQ that recommends users check the Known Issues for the release they're using.
There should also be a Q&A for people looking for more specific tips and tricks for using Inkscape, to a page with a listing of Tutorials. We probably shouldn't directly link to specific tutorials since a) the links would bitrot, and b) we'd have requests to add links to more and more tutorials.
So my first question: When I come across bad links, (dead,empty, not found pages, etc), what would be the best way to handle it? Can I link to any appropriate image or tutorial? Or should the links only go to "official" resources? What if those "official" resources don't exist?
Use your best judgment, but if you restrict to only linking to official resources then that should make future maintenance easier since there theoretically should be less bitrot.
As to current links to missing official resources, those items are probably around *someplace*. It may be just that the URL has changed due to server movements. Or it might be recoverable from bzr or sourceforge svn. I also have old backups of previous incarnations of the website. If you give me some specific link examples I can help chase down where things may have moved to.
The 2nd question: When I come across answers to user-relatedquestions in the FAQ, such as item 2.21 (Can I change the Inkscape theme?) where the answer is in wiki, what should I do? In this case, the answer provides a link to here: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Customizing_Inkscape which is a fairly substantial page in the wiki. If that info should not be in the wiki, where should it be? Should I write all that info from the wiki page, in the answer in the faq?
I think it's a bit too much for the FAQ. The contents of that wiki page looks like it really ought to be part of some official documentation, like the man page or something. Also I think it probably isn't that 'frequent' of a question so once it's in the program documentation it can be dropped from the FAQ.
There might be a few other FAQ items like this, that should just move to proper docs.
Thanks for your help. And btw, since I'm such a newbie to themailing list, please let me know if I say or do something wrong.
Welcome to the list! Great post. :-)
Bryce
Hi,
On 17/08/14 09:48, Brynn wrote:
I recently subscribed to the user list, but I didn't even know about #inkscape user channel. That's an IRC channel...or....that's not
twitter,
is it? (Sorry, I don't participate in the whole social media thing.) However, I'm quite familiar with messages posted in forums, and somewhat with messages posted in Launchpad Answers.
That's an irc channel, yes. irc://freenode/#inkscape There is an inkscape twitter but i don't know much about it (btw, maybe we should announce .48.5 on it)
On 16/08/14 21:38, Bryce Harrington wrote:
Similarly, if you follow the user list or the #inkscape user channel and see questions being asked a lot (and that sound likely to continue being asked long in the future), consider adding Q&A's for those.
From my experience on #inkscape, the two most asked questions on
#inkscape are [hh:mm:00] *inkscaper424242<kiwiirc@...3144...> joins [hh:mm:15] <inkscaper424242> hi, can i ask a question ? [hh:mm:28] *inkscaper424242<kiwiirc@...3144...> quits [client quit]
and
"how to install on mac os x ? i downloaded the program and it won't launch"
+ some "how to make it work with my [specific] cutting machine ?" from time to time.
As for the user mailing list, i'm not sure. -- Mc
On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 01:48:24AM -0600, Brynn wrote:
Thanks Bryce.
"> Similarly, if you follow the user list or the #inkscape user channel and
see questions being asked a lot (and that sound likely to continue being asked long in the future), consider adding Q&A's for those."
I recently subscribed to the user list, but I didn't even know about #inkscape user channel. That's an IRC channel...or....that's not twitter, is it? (Sorry, I don't participate in the whole social media thing.) However, I'm quite familiar with messages posted in forums, and somewhat with messages posted in Launchpad Answers.
Yes, it's an IRC channel. For more info see the end of this page:
* http://inkscape.org/en/community/discussion/
Fwiw, the Jabber info on that page is all obsolete I think.
I'll make a list of the bad links (dead, empty, not found pages) (which I guess is what you mean by "bitrot"), and send them to you. Maybe you can find them somewhere.
Yes, that's what bitrot means.
FWI, I'm on travel this coming week so might not be very responsive in the near term, but will catch up once I'm back.
We also have an #inkscape-devel channel, which you're welcome to join as well. su_v is very active there and she might be able to help if I'm not around.
Speaking of a listing of tutorials -- would those be only "official" tutorials? Or should all kinds of outside tutorials (such as listed on my webpage) be found on the Tutorials page? Already, there are lots of tutorials from a deviantART feed that Martin set up (which are "outside" tutorials). But with such a listing of outside tutorials, again, you'll have the bitrot issue, and possible frequent requests to be listed.
The FAQ probably should only directly link to the official tutorials (the ones that appear in-program). Those are the ones we have direct control over and can prevent bitrotting.
I'd love to see more work go into the Tutorials section, but don't have specific advice. The Tutorials page doesn't need to be limited to official tutorials. I like how Martin set it up to pull from deviantArt because then we don't have to worry about bad links on our end.
"Our
software documentation is also a lot better than when this FAQ was initially written, too."
and regarding the Customizing Inkscape faq item "> There might be a few other FAQ items like this, that should just move to
proper docs."
and "Also I think it probably isn't that
'frequent' of a question so once it's in the program documentation it can be dropped from the FAQ."
Are you suggesting that if documentation for an faq item exists, that it should be deleted from the faq? Or that the answer should be deleted, and instead should link to the documentation?
Because I think a lot of people, maybe even most people, think of an FAQ for just exactly that "frequently asked questions". Perhaps the faq has been used in the past, as a place for developers to put answers, and for users to find answers, when no other documentation exists. But I'm not sure taking it completely out of the faq would be appropriate, if it truly is asked for frequently. For customizing Inkscape, I can say that it is asked surprisingly often! I've even heard people say they won't use Inkscape unless they can have a customized theme! (Of course, imo, that's their problem, but it is a fairly common topic.) (And btw, easily customizable themes, or "skins", is a much wished-for feature!)
Yes, I completely agree with all of this. It's true that in the far past we did put stuff in the FAQ that should have just gone into regular docs but we didn't have those at the time. Since then I think a lot of that has been scrubbed out. I just want to suggest that if you feel there is stuff in there that's a bit too much for the FAQ, then moving it into proper documentation is the right way to go.
These days our documentation is actually quite thorough, and the FAQ could probably leverage it better. For instance, it could give a brief answer and a couple hints for the most common things people want to do, and then "For more detailed information about customizing Inkscape, please see the <link>Customizing Inkscape</link> chapter of the Inkscape Manual" (or whatever).
Bryce
On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:29:10AM +0200, Marc Jeanmougin wrote:
Hi,
On 17/08/14 09:48, Brynn wrote:
I recently subscribed to the user list, but I didn't even know about #inkscape user channel. That's an IRC channel...or....that's not
twitter,
is it? (Sorry, I don't participate in the whole social media thing.) However, I'm quite familiar with messages posted in forums, and somewhat with messages posted in Launchpad Answers.
That's an irc channel, yes. irc://freenode/#inkscape There is an inkscape twitter but i don't know much about it (btw, maybe we should announce .48.5 on it)
On 16/08/14 21:38, Bryce Harrington wrote:
Similarly, if you follow the user list or the #inkscape user channel and see questions being asked a lot (and that sound likely to continue being asked long in the future), consider adding Q&A's for those.
From my experience on #inkscape, the two most asked questions on #inkscape are [hh:mm:00] *inkscaper424242<kiwiirc@...3144...> joins [hh:mm:15] <inkscaper424242> hi, can i ask a question ? [hh:mm:28] *inkscaper424242<kiwiirc@...3144...> quits [client quit]
Hah! Yes I've noticed this as well.
Don't know if it'll help but I added a sentence to the IRC applet page to encourage them to wait a bit if they ask a question.
http://inkscape.org/en/community/discussion/
and
"how to install on mac os x ? i downloaded the program and it won't launch"
I take it this is just "remember you need XQuartz installed first"? Perhaps the better solution would be to make the OSX installer check for XQuartz and prompt the user to install it (or offer to do it for them)?
- some "how to make it work with my [specific] cutting machine ?" from
time to time.
Ah, that's a good question to include in the FAQ.
I once had an Inkscape user actually find my phone number and call me (at work!) for help getting it working with a cutting machine.
Bryce
On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 12:15 -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:
I once had an Inkscape user actually find my phone number and call me (at work!) for help getting it working with a cutting machine.
Oh fun. Did you charge him loads of money? ;-) that's what I would have done, consultancy fees and all that. Phones are rude, stick to email.
Thanks for the guidance on the FAQ Bryce.
Martin,
On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 07:35:46PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 12:15 -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:
I once had an Inkscape user actually find my phone number and call me (at work!) for help getting it working with a cutting machine.
Oh fun. Did you charge him loads of money? ;-) that's what I would have done, consultancy fees and all that. Phones are rude, stick to email.
Actually it was an older lady who was investigating use of Inkscape for scrapbooking. I'd never heard of scrapbooking or cutters before, so she got to educate me on that while I walked her through how to trace a picture of Eeyore.
Bryce
On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 17:18 -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:
Actually it was an older lady who was investigating use of Inkscape for scrapbooking. I'd never heard of scrapbooking or cutters before, so she got to educate me on that while I walked her through how to trace a picture of Eeyore.
That's an awesome story. In my other work as neighbourhood president I notice the older generations are very keen on using their phones to make voice calls. Of course, this is a bit of a conflict with all the shy geeks who would rather use sms.
There's a local community center funded by MIT that uses inkscape for it's CNC needs. Using extensions to produce both instructions for their metal laser cutter, sewing machines and I think the wood cutter CNC too.
Martin,
Ok, then whenever you return, because this isn't urgent. Or if anyone else can answer, that's fine too.
">Yes, it's an IRC channel. For more info see the end of this page: * http://inkscape.org/en/community/discussion/"
At the end of that page, #inkscape-devel is referenced. But your previous message mentions #inkscape user. So just to be clear, there are 2 channels - 1 for devs, and 1 for users? If so, that isn't mentioned on the website. It probably should be, although not on that page....maybe Learn page. If not, then I'm confused.
"> Fwiw, the Jabber info on that page is all obsolete I think."
I can delete that, if you (or anyone) will confirm it. :-)
"> I'd love to see more work go into the Tutorials section, but don't have
specific advice."
I'll be happy to work on it, and as I mentioned before, I'll also be glad to keep it current. (Not much annoys me more than going to a website for info, and finding dead links everywhere.) But I'll finish the faq project first.
All best, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 12:56 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...> Cc: "Inkscape-Devel" Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] splitting FAQ in 2
On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 01:48:24AM -0600, Brynn wrote:
Thanks Bryce.
"> Similarly, if you follow the user list or the #inkscape user channel and
see questions being asked a lot (and that sound likely to continue being asked long in the future), consider adding Q&A's for those."
I recently subscribed to the user list, but I didn't even know about #inkscape user channel. That's an IRC channel...or....that's not twitter, is it? (Sorry, I don't participate in the whole social media thing.) However, I'm quite familiar with messages posted in forums, and somewhat with messages posted in Launchpad Answers.
Yes, it's an IRC channel. For more info see the end of this page:
Fwiw, the Jabber info on that page is all obsolete I think.
I'll make a list of the bad links (dead, empty, not found pages) (which I guess is what you mean by "bitrot"), and send them to you. Maybe you can find them somewhere.
Yes, that's what bitrot means.
FWI, I'm on travel this coming week so might not be very responsive in the near term, but will catch up once I'm back.
We also have an #inkscape-devel channel, which you're welcome to join as well. su_v is very active there and she might be able to help if I'm not around.
Speaking of a listing of tutorials -- would those be only "official" tutorials? Or should all kinds of outside tutorials (such as listed on my webpage) be found on the Tutorials page? Already, there are lots of tutorials from a deviantART feed that Martin set up (which are "outside" tutorials). But with such a listing of outside tutorials, again, you'll have the bitrot issue, and possible frequent requests to be listed.
The FAQ probably should only directly link to the official tutorials (the ones that appear in-program). Those are the ones we have direct control over and can prevent bitrotting.
I'd love to see more work go into the Tutorials section, but don't have specific advice. The Tutorials page doesn't need to be limited to official tutorials. I like how Martin set it up to pull from deviantArt because then we don't have to worry about bad links on our end.
"Our
software documentation is also a lot better than when this FAQ was initially written, too."
and regarding the Customizing Inkscape faq item "> There might be a few other FAQ items like this, that should just move to
proper docs."
and "Also I think it probably isn't that
'frequent' of a question so once it's in the program documentation it can be dropped from the FAQ."
Are you suggesting that if documentation for an faq item exists, that it should be deleted from the faq? Or that the answer should be deleted, and instead should link to the documentation?
Because I think a lot of people, maybe even most people, think of an FAQ for just exactly that "frequently asked questions". Perhaps the faq has been used in the past, as a place for developers to put answers, and for users to find answers, when no other documentation exists. But I'm not sure taking it completely out of the faq would be appropriate, if it truly is asked for frequently. For customizing Inkscape, I can say that it is asked surprisingly often! I've even heard people say they won't use Inkscape unless they can have a customized theme! (Of course, imo, that's their problem, but it is a fairly common topic.) (And btw, easily customizable themes, or "skins", is a much wished-for feature!)
Yes, I completely agree with all of this. It's true that in the far past we did put stuff in the FAQ that should have just gone into regular docs but we didn't have those at the time. Since then I think a lot of that has been scrubbed out. I just want to suggest that if you feel there is stuff in there that's a bit too much for the FAQ, then moving it into proper documentation is the right way to go.
These days our documentation is actually quite thorough, and the FAQ could probably leverage it better. For instance, it could give a brief answer and a couple hints for the most common things people want to do, and then "For more detailed information about customizing Inkscape, please see the <link>Customizing Inkscape</link> chapter of the Inkscape Manual" (or whatever).
Bryce
"> + some "how to make it work with my [specific] cutting machine ?" from
time to time.
Ah, that's a good question to include in the FAQ.
I once had an Inkscape user actually find my phone number and call me (at work!) for help getting it working with a cutting machine."
Just fyi: There's a nice, and little-known forum for using Inkscape with cutting machines -- Inkscape Cutting Design at http://www.inkscapecuttingdesign.com/index.php However, these days, cutting machines' drawing software has gotten so much better, that most people don't need to use Inkscape. So the future of that forum is not clear -- I think the admin is considering closing it.
Also a board at InkscapeForum.com (http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewforum.php?f=31).
brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 1:15 PM To: "Marc Jeanmougin" <marc@...3062...> Cc: "Inkscape-Devel" Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] splitting FAQ in 2
On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:29:10AM +0200, Marc Jeanmougin wrote:
Hi,
On 17/08/14 09:48, Brynn wrote:
I recently subscribed to the user list, but I didn't even know about #inkscape user channel. That's an IRC channel...or....that's not
twitter,
is it? (Sorry, I don't participate in the whole social media thing.) However, I'm quite familiar with messages posted in forums, and somewhat with messages posted in Launchpad Answers.
That's an irc channel, yes. irc://freenode/#inkscape There is an inkscape twitter but i don't know much about it (btw, maybe we should announce .48.5 on it)
On 16/08/14 21:38, Bryce Harrington wrote:
Similarly, if you follow the user list or the #inkscape user channel and see questions being asked a lot (and that sound likely to continue being asked long in the future), consider adding Q&A's for those.
From my experience on #inkscape, the two most asked questions on #inkscape are [hh:mm:00] *inkscaper424242<kiwiirc@...3144...> joins [hh:mm:15] <inkscaper424242> hi, can i ask a question ? [hh:mm:28] *inkscaper424242<kiwiirc@...3144...> quits [client quit]
Hah! Yes I've noticed this as well.
Don't know if it'll help but I added a sentence to the IRC applet page to encourage them to wait a bit if they ask a question.
http://inkscape.org/en/community/discussion/
and
"how to install on mac os x ? i downloaded the program and it won't launch"
I take it this is just "remember you need XQuartz installed first"? Perhaps the better solution would be to make the OSX installer check for XQuartz and prompt the user to install it (or offer to do it for them)?
- some "how to make it work with my [specific] cutting machine ?" from
time to time.
Ah, that's a good question to include in the FAQ.
I once had an Inkscape user actually find my phone number and call me (at work!) for help getting it working with a cutting machine.
Bryce
Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Hi Brynn,
There is #inkscape which is kind of the all purpose channel. Likewise, there is #inkscape-devel which is for inkscape development related discussion. Do know that the website, education materials, marketing, tutorials, and any number of other non-casual items get discussed in the devel channel... it's as broad as developing Inkscape as a project, not necessarily limited to software development on the coding front.
Cheers, Josh
On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 12:29 AM, Brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Ok, then whenever you return, because this isn't urgent. Or if anyone else can answer, that's fine too.
">Yes, it's an IRC channel. For more info see the end of this page:
At the end of that page, #inkscape-devel is referenced. But your previous message mentions #inkscape user. So just to be clear, there are 2 channels - 1 for devs, and 1 for users? If so, that isn't mentioned on the website. It probably should be, although not on that page....maybe Learn page. If not, then I'm confused.
"> Fwiw, the Jabber info on that page is all obsolete I think."
I can delete that, if you (or anyone) will confirm it. :-)
"> I'd love to see more work go into the Tutorials section, but don't have
specific advice."
I'll be happy to work on it, and as I mentioned before, I'll also be glad to keep it current. (Not much annoys me more than going to a website for info, and finding dead links everywhere.) But I'll finish the faq project first.
All best, brynn
From: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 12:56 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...> Cc: "Inkscape-Devel" Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] splitting FAQ in 2
On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 01:48:24AM -0600, Brynn wrote:
Thanks Bryce.
"> Similarly, if you follow the user list or the #inkscape user channel and
see questions being asked a lot (and that sound likely to continue being asked long in the future), consider adding Q&A's for those."
I recently subscribed to the user list, but I didn't even know about #inkscape user channel. That's an IRC channel...or....that's not twitter, is it? (Sorry, I don't participate in the whole social media thing.) However, I'm quite familiar with messages posted in forums, and somewhat with messages posted in Launchpad Answers.
Yes, it's an IRC channel. For more info see the end of this page:
Fwiw, the Jabber info on that page is all obsolete I think.
I'll make a list of the bad links (dead, empty, not found pages) (which I guess is what you mean by "bitrot"), and send them to you. Maybe you can find them somewhere.
Yes, that's what bitrot means.
FWI, I'm on travel this coming week so might not be very responsive in the near term, but will catch up once I'm back.
We also have an #inkscape-devel channel, which you're welcome to join as well. su_v is very active there and she might be able to help if I'm not around.
Speaking of a listing of tutorials -- would those be only "official" tutorials? Or should all kinds of outside tutorials (such as listed on my webpage) be found on the Tutorials page? Already, there are lots of tutorials from a deviantART feed that Martin set up (which are "outside" tutorials). But with such a listing of outside tutorials, again, you'll have the bitrot issue, and possible frequent requests to be listed.
The FAQ probably should only directly link to the official tutorials (the ones that appear in-program). Those are the ones we have direct control over and can prevent bitrotting.
I'd love to see more work go into the Tutorials section, but don't have specific advice. The Tutorials page doesn't need to be limited to official tutorials. I like how Martin set it up to pull from deviantArt because then we don't have to worry about bad links on our end.
"Our
software documentation is also a lot better than when this FAQ was initially written, too."
and regarding the Customizing Inkscape faq item "> There might be a few other FAQ items like this, that should just move to
proper docs."
and "Also I think it probably isn't that
'frequent' of a question so once it's in the program documentation it can be dropped from the FAQ."
Are you suggesting that if documentation for an faq item exists, that it should be deleted from the faq? Or that the answer should be deleted, and instead should link to the documentation?
Because I think a lot of people, maybe even most people, think of an FAQ for just exactly that "frequently asked questions". Perhaps the faq has been used in the past, as a place for developers to put answers, and for users to find answers, when no other documentation exists. But I'm not sure taking it completely out of the faq would be appropriate, if it truly is asked for frequently. For customizing Inkscape, I can say that it is asked surprisingly often! I've even heard people say they won't use Inkscape unless they can have a customized theme! (Of course, imo, that's their problem, but it is a fairly common topic.) (And btw, easily customizable themes, or "skins", is a much wished-for feature!)
Yes, I completely agree with all of this. It's true that in the far past we did put stuff in the FAQ that should have just gone into regular docs but we didn't have those at the time. Since then I think a lot of that has been scrubbed out. I just want to suggest that if you feel there is stuff in there that's a bit too much for the FAQ, then moving it into proper documentation is the right way to go.
These days our documentation is actually quite thorough, and the FAQ could probably leverage it better. For instance, it could give a brief answer and a couple hints for the most common things people want to do, and then "For more detailed information about customizing Inkscape, please see the <link>Customizing Inkscape</link> chapter of the Inkscape Manual" (or whatever).
Bryce
Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
On 17.8.2014 21:15, Bryce Harrington wrote:
On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 11:29:10AM +0200, Marc Jeanmougin wrote:
- some "how to make it work with my [specific] cutting machine ?" from
time to time.
Ah, that's a good question to include in the FAQ.
I once had an Inkscape user actually find my phone number and call me (at work!) for help getting it working with a cutting machine.
i can help with that, i helped a couple dozen people to get their plotters to work with the plot extension. they had all kinds of problems both hardware and software related.
maybe someone can give me write access and i'll start writing right away. could maybe a new section for cutters/plotters/(cnc mills) be useful?
regards, TimeWaster
On Mon, 2014-08-18 at 11:54 +0200, TimeWaster wrote:
maybe someone can give me write access and i'll start writing right away. could maybe a new section for cutters/plotters/(cnc mills) be useful?
It might be good to have a page for that on the website. Let me know when you've created a user account for yourself and I'll add the editing permissions for you.
Martin,
On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 01:29:03AM -0600, Brynn wrote:
Ok, then whenever you return, because this isn't urgent. Or if anyone else can answer, that's fine too.
">Yes, it's an IRC channel. For more info see the end of this page:
At the end of that page, #inkscape-devel is referenced. But your previous message mentions #inkscape user. So just to be clear, there are 2 channels - 1 for devs, and 1 for users? If so, that isn't mentioned on the website. It probably should be, although not on that page....maybe Learn page. If not, then I'm confused.
Right. For the longest time we just had #inkscape and all discussion went on there. #inkscape-devel was added more recently for more project-development oriented discussion (basically to parallel this mailing list). #inkscape can tend to get cluttered with lots of user questions via the Web IRC client, and discussions between developers can often be quite lengthy, so makes sense to break them out.
"> Fwiw, the Jabber info on that page is all obsolete I think."
I can delete that, if you (or anyone) will confirm it. :-)
If no one says otherwise within the next day or so, go ahead and delete.
"> I'd love to see more work go into the Tutorials section, but don't have
specific advice."
I'll be happy to work on it, and as I mentioned before, I'll also be glad to keep it current. (Not much annoys me more than going to a website for info, and finding dead links everywhere.) But I'll finish the faq project first.
Sounds good!
Bryce
IMHO a very useful addition. The included gcode tools are somewhat fractured and I've been thinking of rewriting them so they are grouped in a workflow way. Also there are some copies around that have 'improvements' but not forked from originals. so harder to track down why some changes have been made. It'd be a good project to collect and improve the UI presentation of these Gcode and related tools.
Mark... - https://github.com/jnweiger/inkscape-gears-dev - https://github.com/Neon22/inkscape-jigsaw - https://github.com/Neon22/inkscape-LasercutBox - https://github.com/Neon22/inkscape_extension_template
On 8/19/2014 6:09 AM, Martin Owens wrote:
On Mon, 2014-08-18 at 11:54 +0200, TimeWaster wrote:
maybe someone can give me write access and i'll start writing right away. could maybe a new section for cutters/plotters/(cnc mills) be useful?
It might be good to have a page for that on the website. Let me know when you've created a user account for yourself and I'll add the editing permissions for you.
Martin,
Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007/8055 - Release Date: 08/17/14
But there are so very many different types of those computerized cutters, plotters, etc. out there. I don't think you could hope to show info on all of them....much less keep it current, with all their future upgrades, etc.
And as soon as you show good documentation for 1 type of machine, won't there be requests for more and more?
Shouldn't owners of those machines consult the machine's documentation, rather than Inkscape documentation?
Just a couple of thoughts from a newbie :-)
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 12:09 PM To: <sebi@...2963...> Cc: "Inkscape Devel Mailingliste" inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] splitting FAQ in 2
On Mon, 2014-08-18 at 11:54 +0200, TimeWaster wrote:
maybe someone can give me write access and i'll start writing right away. could maybe a new section for cutters/plotters/(cnc mills) be useful?
It might be good to have a page for that on the website. Let me know when you've created a user account for yourself and I'll add the editing permissions for you.
Martin,
Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
When i started 2 years ago i also thought this would be the case, but actually it doesn't seems to be.
there where two or three cases where the plotter had some special stuff to consider (dip switches, special commands), but all the others simply worked once the serial connection was set up correctly.
nearly all plotters use the same subset of commands, and i only encountered one manufacturer who deviated from that, which was KNK.
so from my experience it is not a problem at all.
I dont want to show documentation for a specific plotter (normally you can find the manual online), but rather give general tipps how to debug/fix the connection to the plotter and other typical points of failure.
regards, TimeWaster
On 19.8.2014 07:57, Brynn wrote:
But there are so very many different types of those computerized cutters, plotters, etc. out there. I don't think you could hope to show info on all of them....much less keep it current, with all their future upgrades, etc.
And as soon as you show good documentation for 1 type of machine, won't there be requests for more and more?
Shouldn't owners of those machines consult the machine's documentation, rather than Inkscape documentation?
Just a couple of thoughts from a newbie :-)
From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 12:09 PM To: <sebi@...2963...> Cc: "Inkscape Devel Mailingliste" inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] splitting FAQ in 2
On Mon, 2014-08-18 at 11:54 +0200, TimeWaster wrote:
maybe someone can give me write access and i'll start writing right away. could maybe a new section for cutters/plotters/(cnc mills) be useful?
It might be good to have a page for that on the website. Let me know when you've created a user account for yourself and I'll add the editing permissions for you.
Martin,
Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
"These days our documentation is actually quite thorough, and the FAQ could probably leverage it better. For instance, it could give a brief answer and a couple hints for the most common things people want to do, and then "For more detailed information about customizing Inkscape, please see the <link>Customizing Inkscape</link> chapter of the Inkscape Manual" (or whatever)."
As I suspected, there are indeed a lot of user-related pages in the wiki. For this page: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Customizing_Inkscape, Bryce suggested: "I think it's a bit too much for the FAQ. The contents of that wiki page looks like it really ought to be part of some official documentation, like the man page or something."
Now I just ran into this page: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/LaTeX (which is linked to faq item 2.5). I suppose this should be part of "some official documentation" as well. But documentation, in general, is a part of Inkscape that I'm not so familiar with.
Really, the only documentation I know about, is the manual, the official tutorials, and the wiki (aside from Launchpad and Sourceforge docs). So my next question, is how to handle items which need to be added to "some official documentation". Is there a particular person who is in charge of documentation? I could make a list and give to this person. But then my work can't get finished, until their work is finished. Well, then maybe I should handle it myself? But I would need a bit of guidance. I certainly can copy/paste, and write some html. It's just where to put it, that I'm not sure.
Maybe I could make a new page (at first on staging site, of course)? I would just transfer all wiki content which is currently used to answer user questions in the faq, to this page, and link to the info there.
However, I suspect Bryce had something else in mind with "some official documentation".
How should I handle this kind of documentation?
Thanks again, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Bryce Harrington" <bryce@...961...> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 12:56 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...3133...> Cc: "Inkscape-Devel" Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] splitting FAQ in 2
On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 01:48:24AM -0600, Brynn wrote:
Thanks Bryce.
"> Similarly, if you follow the user list or the #inkscape user channel and
see questions being asked a lot (and that sound likely to continue being asked long in the future), consider adding Q&A's for those."
I recently subscribed to the user list, but I didn't even know about #inkscape user channel. That's an IRC channel...or....that's not twitter, is it? (Sorry, I don't participate in the whole social media thing.) However, I'm quite familiar with messages posted in forums, and somewhat with messages posted in Launchpad Answers.
Yes, it's an IRC channel. For more info see the end of this page:
Fwiw, the Jabber info on that page is all obsolete I think.
I'll make a list of the bad links (dead, empty, not found pages) (which I guess is what you mean by "bitrot"), and send them to you. Maybe you can find them somewhere.
Yes, that's what bitrot means.
FWI, I'm on travel this coming week so might not be very responsive in the near term, but will catch up once I'm back.
We also have an #inkscape-devel channel, which you're welcome to join as well. su_v is very active there and she might be able to help if I'm not around.
Speaking of a listing of tutorials -- would those be only "official" tutorials? Or should all kinds of outside tutorials (such as listed on my webpage) be found on the Tutorials page? Already, there are lots of tutorials from a deviantART feed that Martin set up (which are "outside" tutorials). But with such a listing of outside tutorials, again, you'll have the bitrot issue, and possible frequent requests to be listed.
The FAQ probably should only directly link to the official tutorials (the ones that appear in-program). Those are the ones we have direct control over and can prevent bitrotting.
I'd love to see more work go into the Tutorials section, but don't have specific advice. The Tutorials page doesn't need to be limited to official tutorials. I like how Martin set it up to pull from deviantArt because then we don't have to worry about bad links on our end.
"Our
software documentation is also a lot better than when this FAQ was initially written, too."
and regarding the Customizing Inkscape faq item "> There might be a few other FAQ items like this, that should just move to
proper docs."
and "Also I think it probably isn't that
'frequent' of a question so once it's in the program documentation it can be dropped from the FAQ."
Are you suggesting that if documentation for an faq item exists, that it should be deleted from the faq? Or that the answer should be deleted, and instead should link to the documentation?
Because I think a lot of people, maybe even most people, think of an FAQ for just exactly that "frequently asked questions". Perhaps the faq has been used in the past, as a place for developers to put answers, and for users to find answers, when no other documentation exists. But I'm not sure taking it completely out of the faq would be appropriate, if it truly is asked for frequently. For customizing Inkscape, I can say that it is asked surprisingly often! I've even heard people say they won't use Inkscape unless they can have a customized theme! (Of course, imo, that's their problem, but it is a fairly common topic.) (And btw, easily customizable themes, or "skins", is a much wished-for feature!)
Yes, I completely agree with all of this. It's true that in the far past we did put stuff in the FAQ that should have just gone into regular docs but we didn't have those at the time. Since then I think a lot of that has been scrubbed out. I just want to suggest that if you feel there is stuff in there that's a bit too much for the FAQ, then moving it into proper documentation is the right way to go.
These days our documentation is actually quite thorough, and the FAQ could probably leverage it better. For instance, it could give a brief answer and a couple hints for the most common things people want to do, and then "For more detailed information about customizing Inkscape, please see the <link>Customizing Inkscape</link> chapter of the Inkscape Manual" (or whatever).
Bryce
On 8/19/2014 5:57 PM, Brynn wrote:
But there are so very many different types of those computerized cutters, plotters, etc. out there. I don't think you could hope to show info on all of them....much less keep it current, with all their future upgrades, etc.
And as soon as you show good documentation for 1 type of machine, won't there be requests for more and more?
Shouldn't owners of those machines consult the machine's documentation, rather than Inkscape documentation?
Just a couple of thoughts from a newbie :-)
IMHO the docs don't need to be about specific machines just how inkscape is organised for this use case. E.g. - where is the origin (Lower left) - how do you set real dimensions (mm,in) for drawings. - which extensions are designed to create content for CNC and laser cutters. (e.g. have kerf adjustments) Kerf: - knife cutters ignore kerf, lasers, plasmas, cnc need kerf adjustments. - you need to take edge width (kerf) into account so you cut (say) outside the line. - The way inkscape does that - using stroke to path and inset/outset. - which gcodes are supported and list of gcode producing plugins. - forums where inkscape is represented for Gcode. etc.
From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo@...400...> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 12:09 PM To: <sebi@...2963...> Cc: "Inkscape Devel Mailingliste" inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] splitting FAQ in 2
On Mon, 2014-08-18 at 11:54 +0200, TimeWaster wrote:
maybe someone can give me write access and i'll start writing right away. could maybe a new section for cutters/plotters/(cnc mills) be useful?
It might be good to have a page for that on the website. Let me know when you've created a user account for yourself and I'll add the editing permissions for you.
Martin,
participants (7)
-
Bryce Harrington -
Brynn -
Josh Andler -
Marc Jeanmougin -
Mark Schafer -
Martin Owens -
TimeWaster