Re: [Inkscape-docs] FLOSS manual

11 Apr 2016

      Hi Maren, Sylvain, everyone,
...
Wouldn't it - if you want to build the real manual, not a newbie guide
as could be done by translating the French intro - make sense to extend
the existing FLOSS manual?
Yes, that's what I was asking a few days back.  It's been my understanding 
that the French introduction chapter was supposed to be the beginning of a 
manual that is more suitable for newbies (more step-by-step).
Since I can't read the French one yet, I'm still a little bit in the dark 
about its style.  But I thought all our earlier discussions were about using 
it for a newbie, step-by-step manual.
The existing floss manual:
1 -- is already in the more theoretical style
2 -- is already in progress
3 -- doesn't need translating
So I agree with Maren, that if a theoretical manual is wanted, it should be 
built upon the current floss manual.
Personally, I won't be able to help much with a theoretical manual. 
Browsing through, I think I could maybe help a little bit here and there. 
But as I said, I think my skills are better for presenting info for 
beginners.
For the beginner's guide, I'm happy to use the FLOSS interface.  I've never 
done anything like this before.  Well, I mean making a whole manual.  Of 
course I break things down for newbies every day!  But I'm happy to use 
whatever you all think is best.
All best,
brynn
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...>
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2016 2:54 PM
To: inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] FLOSS manual
...
Just a few quick thoughts:
Wouldn't it - if you want to build the real manual, not a newbie guide
as could be done by translating the French intro - make sense to extend
the existing FLOSS manual?
It already gives a strong basis which we could build upon. As a first
step, updating it in the most important places could be a goal. Refining
could come later.
For accessibility, compatibility, and sanity reasons my suggestion would
be to go with the book creation software used at flossmanuals.
-> It provides an interface that allows anyone to easily update the book.
-> It has version (and release) control.
-> It can export to different formats, which can come in handy if you
need a web version, an ebook version or a pdf.
-> Text editing in Inkscape for huge amounts of text is too slow, and
it's also not made for this kind of task.
Kind regards,
Maren
Am 09.04.2016 um 17:28 schrieb Brynn:
...
Hi again,
        Sorry, I think I missed the last part of your message, Sylvain. 
I
get so confused with these inline replies.
...
...
...
        Yes, I'd be very happy to help!  But what's the plan now?
        Since the FLOSS manual is now editable, are we looking to
that, for
the creation of a more step by step (rather than theoretical) open
manual?
Or are we going to use a translation of the French introduction
chapter as a
starting point for a new and open manual?

This is what I stated: I could translate the French introduction into
English and maybe you could make it a better English-ed book.
But actually, reading the book, I don't really find what it brings to
the reader… It's just a bit more detailed than the tutorials, but not
much. And the style or pedagogy aren't magic.
Since I don't read or understand French, I have no idea, yet, about the
contents or quality of that chapter.  Translating a few words here and
there, I have a clue.  But not an overall impression yet.
...
...
I would rather prefer a theoretical manual, as you're saying, something
that needs a bit of skills to be read and understood, but quickly
provides interesting information.
That's that? What would you like most?
Sylvain
While I would prefer a manual which can be helpful to newbies or novices
(because there isn't one, and there already exists a theoretical manual),
the main goal (imho) is to create an open manual which can be maintained 
by
the community, without waiting months for a single author to update after
upgrades.
If this new manual that we're discussing will be more theoretical, I 
still
will be happy to help if I can.  I will probably be less useful for the
theoretical stuff.  (And certainly for not advanced stuff, like how some
extensions work, for example.)  I think my strongest skills are in
simplifying things for newbies.  But I'll be glad to help in whatever way 
I
can.
Perhaps I could think about making some sort of SVG
file-interactive-newbie-introduction-document, that could ship with
Inkscape?  Maybe I'll write up some kind of proposal and submit to the
mailing list for comments and suggestions?  Or possibly wiki proposal,
although I tend to get lost writing in the wiki @@.  Or maybe I could 
write
a newbie start guide for this new manual??  Or for the website??
But anyway, imho, what's important is that everyone who will be on this
initial, starting manual "team" has a clear understanding what the goal 
is!
And I think we need to get some clarity about that before we start 
(except
for the translating).  Also perhaps we need to discuss logistics, and 
what
kind of workflow we'll use, and who will have which jobs or
responsibilities, and etc?  And most of all, what form will this new 
manual
take?  Will it be a 2nd floss manual?  Or will it be...well no, it won't 
be
in the wiki, since the wiki is being groomed as a developer's resource 
only
these days.  Will it be SVG documents, PDF download, or what?  Could it 
be
on the website??
Also, before that, perhaps we need to put out a mail on devel and user 
lists
asking for anyone else who might want to volunteer/participate.  Although
these messages have been on the Docs list, for everyone to see, perhaps 
an
invite would be nice, for people who might not be subscribed to the Docs
list.  I don't know -- just a thought.
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not a super-strict disciplinarian about
organization.  But we do need to all be "on the same page" (as they say)
before we start.  Right?  I mean, we can't just start writing 
willy-nilly,
randomly, can we?  Well, we could, but it's probably not the best 
approach.
Let me know when you have something translated for me to work on  :-)
All best,
brynn

From: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 8:06 PM
To: "Inkscape Docs" inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net; "Sylvain 
Chiron"
<chironsylvain@...102...>
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] FLOSS manual
...
...
Shouldn't the translated manual be on en.flossmanuals.net?
If we're going to use flossmanuals.net I need to register.  Or can the
translation be shown without needing login?
Maybe we need to start getting organized?
In another topic, on the dev mailing list
(https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/34995212/)someone is
giving input about making Inkscape more beginner-friendly.  While
answering
that, I was wondering if this new manual could be made with Inkscape SVG
files.  That might offer 2 advantages -- a) it would make having an
internal
manual more possible (packed with Inkscape, rather than on the 
internet),
and b) it would have the possibility of being an interactive manual!
Although I realize Inkscape's Text tool is still not quite up to par, as 
a
text editor (doesn't auto-wrap unless flowed text is used - but then 
have
to
convert back to regular text, e.g.).
Just a thought  :-)
Thanks,
brynn

From: "Sylvain Chiron" <chironsylvain@...102...>
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 3:19 PM
To: "Inkscape Docs" inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] FLOSS manual
...
Le 08/04/2016 15:14, Elisa Godoy de Castro Guerra a écrit :
...
Hi,
Courtneay want help in the translation of the initiation inkscape in
french to translate it into english.
FMfr host this project here :
http://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/_edit/
join our force.
Cheers,
Elisa
Hi Elisa,
Shouldn't the translated manual be on en.flossmanuals.net?
Please be careful with the translation… Seeing something like ‘Draw
since geometric shapes’, I'm a bit afraid. It should rather be ‘Draw
using/with/from geometric shapes’ or even just ‘Draw geometric shapes’.
Viewing the manual, I see many microtypographic imperfections, and the
way things are expressed could easily be improved… Can I touch it? I
already started.
I also wonder how it could be renamed from ‘Initiation Inkscape’ to
‘Initiation à Inkscape’.
...
2016-04-05 16:20 GMT+02:00 Brynn <brynn@...78...
mailto:brynn@...78...>:
Hi Sylvain,

Hi Brynn,
...
        Sorry for delay in responding.  Because of the title, 

("code
    style")
    I thought the message might be about something that I can't help
    with.  So I
    didn't read it right away and only just now read it.
The ‘+’ in the subject meant that I talked about two subjects in a
single message. But I should have sent two messages, like others do.
It's saved in my brain.
...
        Yes, I'd be very happy to help!  But what's the plan now?
        Since the FLOSS manual is now editable, are we looking to
that, for
the creation of a more step by step (rather than theoretical) open
manual?
Or are we going to use a translation of the French introduction
chapter as a
starting point for a new and open manual?

This is what I stated: I could translate the French introduction into
English and maybe you could make it a better English-ed book.
But actually, reading the book, I don't really find what it brings to
the reader… It's just a bit more detailed than the tutorials, but not
much. And the style or pedagogy aren't magic.
I would rather prefer a theoretical manual, as you're saying, something
that needs a bit of skills to be read and understood, but quickly
provides interesting information.
That's that? What would you like most?
Sylvain

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