Am 01.05.2017 um 07:19 schrieb brynn:
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book,
you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
Thanks Maren. I'll jump right in, as much as possible. But I don't understand this part:
"....make corresponding screenshots for it...."
Screenshots for what purpose?
- The English screenshots need to be made. The original book is in French and has French screenshots, with French menus and maybe example texts in French (don't know for sure), as far as I know. Some may not need any translation, because there may not be any words in them, but others will.
They could be inserted into the corresponding chapters, even if there is no text yet.
Getting an account on FLOSS Manuals goes without saying, once the translation is finished and we can go ahead updating and expanding. But I'll be in the same boat as potential new translators, for learning how it works. I won't be in a position to help newcomers, until I've had a little experience myself.
Credits page -- the first page gives all the credits. Is something more needed?
- Ah, yes, I've found it now, thanks. It's here: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ (not first page, though)
Maren
Proofreading -- I've read several pages already, and the English is flawless so far! But before I go on, I'd like to hear if anyone else is proofreading, so we don't waste our collective time.
Actually, because of our previous discussions, I've been waiting for Sylvain to let me know when something is ready for proofing. I could still do it anyway. But maybe I'll message him and ask.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:29 PM To: C R ; brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi all,
oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D
Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:
@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.
@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?
@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.
(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.
We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.
Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.
The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.
As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.
I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.
Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.
Would that work??
All best, brynn
As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.