Hi Maren,

I think we should probably get a good overview about the book's current

structure first, before we venture into making major changes.

Well now I'm confused. I had asked earlier whether we should get all the translating done first, before we start editing, updating and expanding. And you said we can go ahead and start editing right away. Otherwise I would not have posted this topic yet. Would you please clarify?

Yes, it's entirely possible I will see things differently when I can actually read it through. But I think you have misunderstood me. I'm not proposing discussing theory at all. This is simply pulling certain chapters out, as they are, without changing them, and putting them in the front. I don't propose to change the way it's written.

The reason I see for this new section is for the purpose of getting users quickly into producing something. For goodness sakes, currently, we have to read down through 15 or 20 chapters (guessing, didn't count) before they get to F/S or the palette. And color is probably one of the first things I would be anxious to learn. I would find that frustrating, as a new user.

It would not be presenting all the theory up front, because it's not presenting theory at all. It would not be giving up one approach in favor of another. It would be having both approaches available for the user. Some users might prefer to read straight through, and others might prefer hands on, step by step. This could allow both ways. And I can see a way to have both approaches separate, so the user isn't confused.

So for example, maybe I would put Managing the Workspace first. Without changing anything, at the bottom of that chapter, I would simply put Step #1 - Set up a document for yourself to practice with, using Document Properties dialog. Maybe say something like "try choosing a different template or page size, just for practice, rather than using the default" "or if you're not so adventurous, just use the default document"

Next would be the Interface chapter, and it might not have a step associated with it. Or I might use it to set the practice doc at 100%. (That darned default document which opens at 35% needs to be addressed, somehow.) So at the bottom, I would either say Step #x - "change the zoom to 100%" or "after you're finished reading, please move on to the next chapter for Step #2.

(Although while I'm looking at this chapter, I would suggest putting a screenshot of the Inkscape interface that uses the default theme/icon set. Having it different is going to be confusing for newbies, I think. I've never even seen those icons before; they must be custom. Also, for me, the images have lost their proportions, and are stretched top to bottom and appearing squeezed together side to side. Maybe a style issue?? Shall I make a separate thread for that issue? Should we use gitlab for issues?? Because I have so many ideas and existing issues that I'd like to discuss!!

Next probably the Selection tool. At the bottom I would put Step #2 - Draw a rectangle, so we you can practice using the Selection tool (and I would put clear instructions how to draw the rectangle). And Step #3 - Practice all the ways of using the Selection tool, which were explained above.

Next, probably Copying and Duplicating. At the bottom would be Step #4 - Use your practice file and duplicate the rectangle that you made in step 2, a few times. Also practice copy/paste.

Next probably Fill and Stroke dialog and palette chapters. At the bottom, Step #5 - Practice using the F/S dialog to change the color of the different rectangles which you created in Step 4. (Not sure if this chapter addresses alpha value or opacity, but if it does, step 5 would also suggest to practice changing those things.) (Actually it would almost have to, because of the other darned default behavior of partially transparent shapes.)

And all along like that. Then the last 2 chapters would be Saving (a simplified version, not the current advanced one) and exporting PNGs.

And so you can see that I'm not proposing changing the content At All. It would simply reorganize certain chapters for the purpose of having the new user produce something right away. How many times have we heard such a request from new users? Well, at least I've heard it relatively many times over the last 10 years. That's why I like your tutorial so much, because it quickly makes the new user productive.

These early chapters can be well linked to the more detailed info further along on the manual. Then if a user is particularly interested in something, they can go right to it.

Maybe once all the chapters which are needed are translated, I can make an example, by making a separate instance of the manual (not for everyone to edit, but just to show what I mean)?

I would not include the transform dialog in this book at all. Its sheer

amount of options is a bit frightening.

Could you be thinking of something else? I don't think of Transform as having a lot of options. Maybe 20 to 30% of number of options in Align/Distr.

But we don't have to present all the complicated parts. Personally, I still don't understand the Matrix tab! But just explain the most basic parts -- Move, Scale, Rotate. And even then, I would suggest it for the Advanced section. I'd also probably skip several parts of Align and Distribute. I might even only present the 2 buttons which center an object!

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 5:49 AM To: inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Manual] Organization of the new manual

Hi Brynn,

I think we should probably get a good overview about the book's current structure first, before we venture into making major changes.

The current sections are meant to gently guide people from drawing *with* geometrical shapes (as a scaffolding), to drawing complex shapes, to using extras.

This is a very different approach from the one I use in my intro tutorial, for example, where I explain some basics first, then go to trying them out.

The book we are working on is thought out in a different manner. It doesn't teach theory so much as it allows people to explore on their own, and only introduces the concepts when they are needed. It's like you would do it when you explain Inkscape to kids, or to people who want to learn in a less intellectual way.

I like this approach a lot, as it doesn't require people to understand everything before they can start creating their first drawings. I find it would be a loss, if we turned this concept upside down, by adding /all/ the theory to the beginning.

That said, I think it could be useful to quickly explain how to use the palette, so beginners can color their drawings, and to ask people to tweak some of the more badly chosen default settings (the four 'scale with...' buttons and the Autosave feature), which will bite them in the behind if not set to a useful value right from the start.

I agree that a new chapter for the Align+Distribute dialog (in the advanced section), as well as one for Copy/Duplicate/Delete make a lot of sense.

I would not include the transform dialog in this book at all. Its sheer amount of options is a bit frightening.

You will find it easier to discuss this, though, when the translation part is mostly done and you have all the relevant info available (which is why I am currently concentrating on translating, one or more chapters every day).

Anyone who can translate French -> English is welcome to join - there are 43 (mostly short) chapters left to work on, as of today, May 20th 2017.

Kind Regards, Maren

Am 18.05.2017 um 19:24 schrieb brynn:

Hi Friends, First I just want to thank Maren again, for getting this manual set up, so that we can move forward with translating and editing. 3 Cheers!!!

    During our early discussions, I had mentioned, and she agreed, that

since the Docs list covers kind of a lot of territory (website, new manual, various other documentation) we might want to identify discussions pertaining to the manual by something in the title of message. That's why I put [Manual] at the beginning of the title of this message. I'm not sure if it should maybe go at the end of the title? Or maybe should be [Man]?

    My main reason for this message, is because I want to start a

discussion about overall organization of the chapters. To me, it makes sense to get that ironed out in the beginning. Because as it grows, it could become harder and harder to change how it's organized.

    (Note that in this message I'm more describing the chapter and section

titles, because right after this, I want to send another message on the subject of possibly improving section and chapter titles. Eventually, they'll come together, but for getting everyone's ideas out, it's probably better to have separate threads.)

    So here are some thoughts I'm having on organization.  If everyone

else wants to wait, that's fine too. Just speak up :-)

    To me, the Selection tool is a global tool and does not belong under

Geometric Shapes. That implies either it can only be used with the shape tools, or used best with them. And that's not the case at all, in my view.

    I'm thinking we need a new major section, that would go between

Introduction and Geometric Shapes. Maybe it would be called something like The Basics or Getting Started? The purpose of it would be to quickly make newbies productive, while linking to the relevant parts of the manual, at each step. Then the rest of the manual would by and large be about the same (except I'll probably suggest a different order for some of chapters later). This could really almost be in the form of a tutorial, although not necessarily.

    This section I'm proposing would include the following

-- the current Interface chapter -- the current Managing the Workspace chapter(which appears to be about Document Properties dialog) -- the current Selection tool -- the current Fill and Stroke dialog -- a new chapter which explains the difference between raster and vector (unless this already exists and I haven't found it yet?) -- current Importing raster images -- current exporting PNG -- current Copying/duplicating -- current Saving your work (these last 3 are currently way down the list, in advanced section) (see discussion below) -- a new chapter introducing transparency, but linking to deeper applications in Fill/Color and/or Advanced sections -- current Align and Distrib from Path section to here -- maybe Transform dialog? (not sure if currently exists)

(not in that order - we can discuss the order later, if everyone agrees to this new section)

    I'm having a hesitation about including the Fill and Stroke dialog in

this section. Most of it is about color and transparency. But because of the Stroke Style tab, it becomes more of a global tool. I generally have it open always. Other comments?

    The reason I would include Importing here, is because many newbies

start out with Inkscape by needing to trace a raster image (auto-trace or manual). I tend to think of importing as part of setting up my document. Any other thoughts?

    To me, you can't get more global than copying/duplicating (except

maybe selection tool). For Saving Your Work, it just doesn't make sense (to me) to have that in advanced section. I realize for many formats, it is advanced material. But I'm thinking -- have a simple explanation in this new section, but then have links to the more advanced info, which most newbies won't need, just to get started.

    For the section on Paths, I would suggest moving Strokes, Markers,

and Custom Markers, out of the Fill/Colors section, into Paths section. That seems obvious to me, but I'd be interested to hear reasons for keeping them with Fill/Color. Ordering of fill/stroke/marker here too.

    Is the Transform dialog covered anywhere?  I don't see it by browsing

the chapters, but maybe is there somewhere? If not, I would put either in the Geometric Shapes section, or maybe even the new section.

    After some discussion, we can propose a good order for the chapters.

Of course, I can only read those which have been translated. So maybe the current order will make more sense when I can read them.

    But for now, what do you all think about the idea of a new section?

All best, brynn

---

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs