Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi all,
oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D
Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:
@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.
@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?
@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.
(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.
We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.
Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.
The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.
As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.
I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.
Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.
Would that work??
All best, brynn
As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor Westmann
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more sense to put any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed, user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch on a whole different kind of project?
Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.
There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials. It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better suited for a single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs the manual much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.
I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree with finishing what we already have before starting something new.
As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has been translated already: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/
I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this finished. So +1 for the suggestion.
Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it! By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help the translators?
I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.
And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big obstacle to writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an invitation from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it yourself, which is not easy eitiher.
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.
-C
Just my opinion :-)
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.
Maren
Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote: > > I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's > what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd > like. > It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack > of time/hands involved. > > Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a > github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what > needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there should be a button to join:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something "complete" but have something small produced.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Hi Maren,
I talked with Chris this morning about how to set things up. But we were mostly trialing, thinking and researching. So not decisions or anything.
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
Developer documentation is a very different beast and I'd like to if at all possible keep that separate. wiki.inkscape.org is the best location for that at the moment.
One of the ideas we were playing with, was getting contributors to edit content directly at gitlab.com, then we have a bunch of scripts that consume the wiki git repository, generate pot/po files, and provide the raw resource for an optional secondary step.
The second step would be a sort of publishing step. Where we take the content as a specific time, and produce it into a cleaned up, pretty book/pdf.
I imagine contributors like CR would be most interested in this step.
But everyone would be involved in the raw materials step (writing words and getting screenshots into the wiki)
CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.
That's not how licenses work (at least not these ones), you can't remove any prior terms, you can only add terms. Technically you could take a CC-BY work and wrap it in a CC-BY-SA work, or relicense as All Rights Reserved. BUT everyone would still be required to attend that that attribution of the original license. SA means you can't /add licenses/ to make it more restrictive.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_q uest-ce-que-lopen-source-et-quelle-est-la-difference-entre-free- libre-et-open).
Ugh, not dual licensed then. This is where a CC0 or PD would have been better. We can't do anything with the content if we want to use CC-BY- SA since the licenses are incompatible.
We'll have to be careful.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book,
you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
Thanks Maren. I'll jump right in, as much as possible. But I don't understand this part:
"....make corresponding screenshots for it...."
Screenshots for what purpose?
Getting an account on FLOSS Manuals goes without saying, once the translation is finished and we can go ahead updating and expanding. But I'll be in the same boat as potential new translators, for learning how it works. I won't be in a position to help newcomers, until I've had a little experience myself.
Credits page -- the first page gives all the credits. Is something more needed?
Proofreading -- I've read several pages already, and the English is flawless so far! But before I go on, I'd like to hear if anyone else is proofreading, so we don't waste our collective time.
Actually, because of our previous discussions, I've been waiting for Sylvain to let me know when something is ready for proofing. I could still do it anyway. But maybe I'll message him and ask.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:29 PM To: C R ; brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi all,
oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D
Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:
@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.
@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?
@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.
(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.
We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.
Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.
The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.
As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.
I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.
Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.
Would that work??
All best, brynn
As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.
Am 01.05.2017 um 07:19 schrieb brynn:
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book,
you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
Thanks Maren. I'll jump right in, as much as possible. But I don't understand this part:
"....make corresponding screenshots for it...."
Screenshots for what purpose?
- The English screenshots need to be made. The original book is in French and has French screenshots, with French menus and maybe example texts in French (don't know for sure), as far as I know. Some may not need any translation, because there may not be any words in them, but others will.
They could be inserted into the corresponding chapters, even if there is no text yet.
Getting an account on FLOSS Manuals goes without saying, once the translation is finished and we can go ahead updating and expanding. But I'll be in the same boat as potential new translators, for learning how it works. I won't be in a position to help newcomers, until I've had a little experience myself.
Credits page -- the first page gives all the credits. Is something more needed?
- Ah, yes, I've found it now, thanks. It's here: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ (not first page, though)
Maren
Proofreading -- I've read several pages already, and the English is flawless so far! But before I go on, I'd like to hear if anyone else is proofreading, so we don't waste our collective time.
Actually, because of our previous discussions, I've been waiting for Sylvain to let me know when something is ready for proofing. I could still do it anyway. But maybe I'll message him and ask.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:29 PM To: C R ; brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi all,
oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D
Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:
@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.
@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?
@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.
(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.
We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.
Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.
The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.
As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.
I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.
Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.
Would that work??
All best, brynn
As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.
Ooohhh, you mean the images, the graphics! Now I understand!
I probably would not be the best perseon to do that, because I use an unusual theme color, a flat color with no "aero", which is not particularly attractive. I use it because it's easy on my eyes. But it would make the pages look so ugly!
If it needs screenshots that are close up, showing a drawing, I could do that. But anything showing dialogs, it would not be a good idea, imo.
But I'll have a go at using a translator. And if I see any places where I can make a screenshot ready, I'll do that too.
Sorry about getting the page wrong. Not 2 minutes after I sent the message, I realized it was not the first page. Oh well.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 5:06 AM To: brynn ; C R Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Am 01.05.2017 um 07:19 schrieb brynn:
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book,
you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
Thanks Maren. I'll jump right in, as much as possible. But I don't understand this part:
"....make corresponding screenshots for it...."
Screenshots for what purpose?
- The English screenshots need to be made. The original book is in French and has French screenshots, with French menus and maybe example texts in French (don't know for sure), as far as I know. Some may not need any translation, because there may not be any words in them, but others will.
They could be inserted into the corresponding chapters, even if there is no text yet.
Getting an account on FLOSS Manuals goes without saying, once the translation is finished and we can go ahead updating and expanding. But I'll be in the same boat as potential new translators, for learning how it works. I won't be in a position to help newcomers, until I've had a little experience myself.
Credits page -- the first page gives all the credits. Is something more needed?
- Ah, yes, I've found it now, thanks. It's here: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ (not first page, though)
Maren
Proofreading -- I've read several pages already, and the English is flawless so far! But before I go on, I'd like to hear if anyone else is proofreading, so we don't waste our collective time.
Actually, because of our previous discussions, I've been waiting for Sylvain to let me know when something is ready for proofing. I could still do it anyway. But maybe I'll message him and ask.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:29 PM To: C R ; brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi all,
oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D
Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:
@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.
@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?
@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.
(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.
We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.
Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.
The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.
As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.
I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.
Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.
Would that work??
All best, brynn
As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.
Am 02.05.2017 um 09:13 schrieb brynn: ...
If it needs screenshots that are close up, showing a drawing, I could do that. But anything showing dialogs, it would not be a good idea, imo.
But I'll have a go at using a translator. And if I see any places where I can make a screenshot ready, I'll do that too.
- Sounds great :) Thank you, Brynn!
Maren
Sorry about getting the page wrong. Not 2 minutes after I sent the message, I realized it was not the first page. Oh well.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 5:06 AM To: brynn ; C R Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Am 01.05.2017 um 07:19 schrieb brynn:
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book,
you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
Thanks Maren. I'll jump right in, as much as possible. But I don't understand this part:
"....make corresponding screenshots for it...."
Screenshots for what purpose?
- The English screenshots need to be made. The original book is in
French and has French screenshots, with French menus and maybe example texts in French (don't know for sure), as far as I know. Some may not need any translation, because there may not be any words in them, but others will.
They could be inserted into the corresponding chapters, even if there is no text yet.
Getting an account on FLOSS Manuals goes without saying, once the translation is finished and we can go ahead updating and expanding. But I'll be in the same boat as potential new translators, for learning how it works. I won't be in a position to help newcomers, until I've had a little experience myself.
Credits page -- the first page gives all the credits. Is something more needed?
- Ah, yes, I've found it now, thanks. It's here:
https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ (not first page, though)
Maren
Proofreading -- I've read several pages already, and the English is flawless so far! But before I go on, I'd like to hear if anyone else is proofreading, so we don't waste our collective time.
Actually, because of our previous discussions, I've been waiting for Sylvain to let me know when something is ready for proofing. I could still do it anyway. But maybe I'll message him and ask.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:29 PM To: C R ; brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi all,
oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D
Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:
@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.
@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?
@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.
(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.
We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.
Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.
The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.
As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.
I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.
Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.
Would that work??
All best, brynn
As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.
On Tue, 2017-05-02 at 20:29 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
If it needs screenshots that are close up, showing a drawing, I
could do
that. But anything showing dialogs, it would not be a good idea,
imo.
But I'll have a go at using a translator. And if I see any places
where
I can make a screenshot ready, I'll do that too.
- Sounds great :) Thank you, Brynn!
I was thinking of something a little bit mad. Taking screenshots of our gtk3 inkscape build using the svg screenshots program. Seeing if we could standardise the size and look of any of our screenshots and maybe even translate the svg instead of the app each time.
But so far that's just a whistful thought.
Martin,
Hi Martin, that is indeed a MAD idea! But a quite attractive one!
Keep me posted if this gets off the ground.
--Victor Westmann
2017-05-02 11:36 GMT-07:00 Martin Owens <doctormo@...2...>:
On Tue, 2017-05-02 at 20:29 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
If it needs screenshots that are close up, showing a drawing, I
could do
that. But anything showing dialogs, it would not be a good idea,
imo.
But I'll have a go at using a translator. And if I see any places
where
I can make a screenshot ready, I'll do that too.
- Sounds great :) Thank you, Brynn!
I was thinking of something a little bit mad. Taking screenshots of our gtk3 inkscape build using the svg screenshots program. Seeing if we could standardise the size and look of any of our screenshots and maybe even translate the svg instead of the app each time.
But so far that's just a whistful thought.
Martin,
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Ok everyone,
So since we are elaborating a LOT on this matter let's hope we can define a couple of things for us to be able to take action as soon as this is decided.
If you all want to go crazy on this topic these is an amazing link that shows the most used licenses: https://choosealicense.com/appendix/
This could be useful. My vote is for CC 0 (Public Domain).
--Victor Westmann
2017-05-02 17:13 GMT-07:00 Victor Westmann <victor.westmann@...2...>:
Hi Martin, that is indeed a MAD idea! But a quite attractive one!
Keep me posted if this gets off the ground.
--Victor Westmann
2017-05-02 11:36 GMT-07:00 Martin Owens <doctormo@...2...>:
On Tue, 2017-05-02 at 20:29 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
If it needs screenshots that are close up, showing a drawing, I
could do
that. But anything showing dialogs, it would not be a good idea,
imo.
But I'll have a go at using a translator. And if I see any places
where
I can make a screenshot ready, I'll do that too.
- Sounds great :) Thank you, Brynn!
I was thinking of something a little bit mad. Taking screenshots of our gtk3 inkscape build using the svg screenshots program. Seeing if we could standardise the size and look of any of our screenshots and maybe even translate the svg instead of the app each time.
But so far that's just a whistful thought.
Martin,
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
I'd be ALL for standardized screenshots. Otherwise, we'd be depending on only certain people who have a nice display, to do it. And preferably, the exact same display, throughout the manual.
I don't understand the first thing you described, about something build and translate svg. But "the SVG screenshots program" caught my attention. What is that?
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 12:36 PM To: Maren Hachmann ; brynn ; C R Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
On Tue, 2017-05-02 at 20:29 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
If it needs screenshots that are close up, showing a drawing, I
could do
that. But anything showing dialogs, it would not be a good idea,
imo.
But I'll have a go at using a translator. And if I see any places
where
I can make a screenshot ready, I'll do that too.
- Sounds great :) Thank you, Brynn!
I was thinking of something a little bit mad. Taking screenshots of our gtk3 inkscape build using the svg screenshots program. Seeing if we could standardise the size and look of any of our screenshots and maybe even translate the svg instead of the app each time.
But so far that's just a whistful thought.
Martin,
On Fri, 2017-05-05 at 08:12 -0600, brynn wrote:
I don't understand the first thing you described, about something build and translate svg. But "the SVG screenshots program" caught my attention. What is that?
It's a way of taking a screenshot, where instead of getting a png with a flat canvas of pixels, you get an svg, with boxes and text where they appeared on the screen.
It only works for Gtk3 apps, so inskcape 0.91, gimp, anything written for Qt, windows programs and Firefox all wouldn't work. (although there are browser screenshot programs for that)
I suspect that such a venture would be fraught with niggles like menus, spacing, default icon themes and so on. So I put it on the back burner. But an interesting idea if anyone else is excited by it.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but
it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.
No, I don't mean to leave it to where anyone would have a clue that any kind of automated translator was used. I don't mean to paste in the translation, and make a couple of small edits.
What I mean is to use the translation just to give me an idea what's on that page. Since I know Inkscape so well, I could write that page of the manual. I can use pages which are already translated to keep the same format.
And when I use google or bing, I never just leave it with what one of them tells me. I use both. And when they invariably give different answers, I take the different words or phrases and send them back through the translator, to find out which one is the closest to what I mean.
(You should have seen what happened when I used them to post a message on Framasoft's French forum! You know, we were using Framapad, and needed some help. They call each document a "pad". Like a notepad. So when I sent the translation back through, I saw that google had other ideas about what is a "pad"!)
Well anyway, it can't hurt to try one page. If it goes badly, then I'll give up.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:29 PM To: C R ; brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi all,
oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D
Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:
@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.
@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?
@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.
(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.
We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.
Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.
The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.
As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.
I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.
Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.
Would that work??
All best, brynn
As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor Westmann
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more sense to put any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed, user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch on a whole different kind of project?
Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.
There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials. It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better suited for a single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs the manual much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.
I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree with finishing what we already have before starting something new.
As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has been translated already: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/
I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this finished. So +1 for the suggestion.
Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it! By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help the translators?
I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.
And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big obstacle to writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an invitation from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it yourself, which is not easy eitiher.
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.
-C
Just my opinion :-)
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.
Maren
Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote: > > I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's > what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd > like. > It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack > of time/hands involved. > > Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a > github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what > needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there should be a button to join:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something "complete" but have something small produced.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Am 01.05.2017 um 08:34 schrieb brynn:
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but
it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.
No, I don't mean to leave it to where anyone would have a clue that any kind of automated translator was used. I don't mean to paste in the translation, and make a couple of small edits.
What I mean is to use the translation just to give me an idea what's on that page. Since I know Inkscape so well, I could write that page of the manual. I can use pages which are already translated to keep the same format.
- Ah, yes. That's also what CR suggested, and it's a good idea :)
And when I use google or bing, I never just leave it with what one of them tells me. I use both. And when they invariably give different answers, I take the different words or phrases and send them back through the translator, to find out which one is the closest to what I mean.
(You should have seen what happened when I used them to post a message on Framasoft's French forum! You know, we were using Framapad, and needed some help. They call each document a "pad". Like a notepad. So when I sent the translation back through, I saw that google had other ideas about what is a "pad"!)
- LOL... ;-D
Well anyway, it can't hurt to try one page. If it goes badly, then I'll give up.
- Ah no, don't give up after just the first trial! If Sylvain or one of the others who already worked with it, have some time, maybe they'd be willing to give some assistance. They also have mailing lists.
Regards, Maren
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:29 PM To: C R ; brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi all,
oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D
Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:
@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.
@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?
@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.
(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.
We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.
Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.
The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.
As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.
I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.
Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.
Would that work??
All best, brynn
As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor Westmann
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more sense to put any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed, user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch on a whole different kind of project?
Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.
There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials. It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better suited for a single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs the manual much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.
I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree with finishing what we already have before starting something new.
As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has been translated already: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/
I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this finished. So +1 for the suggestion.
Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it! By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help the translators?
I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.
And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big obstacle to writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an invitation from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it yourself, which is not easy eitiher.
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.
-C
Just my opinion :-)
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.
Maren
Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens: > > On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote: >> >> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's >> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd >> like. >> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack >> of time/hands involved. >> >> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably >> be a >> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what >> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases. > > > Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris. > > Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, > there > should be a button to join: > > https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs > > And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put: > > https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals > > I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the > adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have > something > "complete" but have something small produced. > > Best Regards, Martin Owens > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Inkscape-devel mailing list > Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel >
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
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participants (4)
-
brynn -
Maren Hachmann -
Martin Owens -
Victor Westmann