Hi Friends, I've been trying to use the Polor Coordinates tab of the Arrange dialog, to move some objects which are arranged in a circle, inward (or outward) without scaling them. Yes, I know it can be done with radially tiled clones, but I didn't want to do it that way this time. Attached is move-rad6.png, which is the "before", and I want to move those 6 objects toward the circle. No matter if I use the object's bounding box for the anchor point, or the rotational center, the result is the other attached image move-rad7.png. This is the same result, no matter if Rotate Objects is checked or not. This is on Windows 7, 64-bit with Inkscape 0.91, 32-bit, exe installer. I haven't tried in Inkscape 0.91, 64-bit, but I can if necessary. And these screenshots were made on layer 3, to avoid the transform attribute issues (which are mostly fixed, but not in 0.91). Another user on Windows 10 does not see this issue, but Idk which Inkscape version he uses. (http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?topic=307.0) I work with circles and objects arranged in a circle quite often, and have always wished for a way to move objects radially, in the same way that nodes can be moved radially by using the transform handles. Again, I know how to use tiled clones, but it seems like there should be an easier way to just move the objects on canvas by dragging them. I'm not technically aware enough to be able to suggest how it could be done. But I think would be a very useful feature....especially if it could work on ellipses as well. Meanwhile, I report this problem in case it might be a bug. Let me know if I can provide any additional info :-)
Thank you very much, brynn
Hi Brynn,
does it work if you uncheck the option "Rotate objects"? Looks like your objects are already rotated before you place them on the circle.
Rotating them a second time is probably not what you want.
Kind regards, Maren
Am 04.01.2016 um 04:15 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Friends, I've been trying to use the Polor Coordinates tab of the Arrange dialog, to move some objects which are arranged in a circle, inward (or outward) without scaling them. Yes, I know it can be done with radially tiled clones, but I didn't want to do it that way this time. Attached is move-rad6.png, which is the "before", and I want to move those 6 objects toward the circle. No matter if I use the object's bounding box for the anchor point, or the rotational center, the result is the other attached image move-rad7.png. This is the same result, no matter if Rotate Objects is checked or not. This is on Windows 7, 64-bit with Inkscape 0.91, 32-bit, exe installer. I haven't tried in Inkscape 0.91, 64-bit, but I can if necessary. And these screenshots were made on layer 3, to avoid the transform attribute issues (which are mostly fixed, but not in 0.91). Another user on Windows 10 does not see this issue, but Idk which Inkscape version he uses. (http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?topic=307.0) I work with circles and objects arranged in a circle quite often, and have always wished for a way to move objects radially, in the same way that nodes can be moved radially by using the transform handles. Again, I know how to use tiled clones, but it seems like there should be an easier way to just move the objects on canvas by dragging them. I'm not technically aware enough to be able to suggest how it could be done. But I think would be a very useful feature....especially if it could work on ellipses as well. Meanwhile, I report this problem in case it might be a bug. Let me know if I can provide any additional info :-)
Thank you very much, brynn
Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
Hi Maren, Thanks. As I said, I get the same results whether Rotate Objects is checked or not. I don't understand what you mean about them being rotated before they are placed on the circle. The "before" image, showing where the 6 objects start from, is move-rad6.png. They are IN A circle, but they are not ON THE circle. The "after" image, showing them rotated and on the circle, after I use the Arrange dialog, is move-rad7.png. Attached is an SVG file with the objects all ready to be tested. It could be that I have some kind of misunderstanding about how this feature works. What I want to do is move those 6 objects shown in move-rad6.png to where they are touching the circle or on the circle (or move them out, further away from the circle, but still in a circle and without scaling them). (And I want to do it without using tiled clones, which is a pain.)
Thanks again, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...3112...> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 6:53 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] problem with Arrange?
Hi Brynn,
does it work if you uncheck the option "Rotate objects"? Looks like your objects are already rotated before you place them on the circle.
Rotating them a second time is probably not what you want.
Kind regards, Maren
Am 04.01.2016 um 04:15 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Friends, I've been trying to use the Polor Coordinates tab of the Arrange dialog, to move some objects which are arranged in a circle, inward (or outward) without scaling them. Yes, I know it can be done with radially tiled clones, but I didn't want to do it that way this time. Attached is move-rad6.png, which is the "before", and I want to move those 6 objects toward the circle. No matter if I use the object's bounding box for the anchor point, or the rotational center, the result is the other attached image move-rad7.png. This is the same result, no matter if Rotate Objects is checked or not. This is on Windows 7, 64-bit with Inkscape 0.91, 32-bit, exe installer. I haven't tried in Inkscape 0.91, 64-bit, but I can if necessary. And these screenshots were made on layer 3, to avoid the transform attribute issues (which are mostly fixed, but not in 0.91). Another user on Windows 10 does not see this issue, but Idk which Inkscape version he uses. (http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?topic=307.0) I work with circles and objects arranged in a circle quite often, and have always wished for a way to move objects radially, in the same way that nodes can be moved radially by using the transform handles. Again, I know how to use tiled clones, but it seems like there should be an easier way to just move the objects on canvas by dragging them. I'm not technically aware enough to be able to suggest how it could be done. But I think would be a very useful feature....especially if it could work on ellipses as well. Meanwhile, I report this problem in case it might be a bug. Let me know if I can provide any additional info :-)
Thank you very much, brynn
Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
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Brynn,
I think there are a few reasons for your problem:
1) The arrange dialog moves the objects based on their selection order (first selected to point one, second selected to point two...). To ensure that you get a predictable order you need to shift-select each item in turn, not use CTRL-A or rubber band selection. It can be useful to group each object with a number entered with the text tool, to make it clearer how they're being placed.
2) It's not usually obvious from looking at a circle which direction is "positive". Try adding an arrow-shaped start marker to the circle to show you the positive direction. With a freshly drawn circle you get better results (in this case) if you either select the objects in an anti-clockwise order, or flip the circle horizontally first before selecting them in a clockwise order.
3) Once you do that, you'll find that the objects are close to the correct positions, but not quite there. With six objects selected, the first will be placed at 60 degrees from the start point of the circle, the second at 120 degrees, and so on. To get them into the right position, therefore, you need to adjust the rotation of the circle to compensate.
So, with that in mind, these steps will get you to the solution you want:
1) Discard the existing circle and draw a new one, so that we've got a known starting point. 2) Flip the circle horizontally. 3) Rotate the circle by -30 degress (hold CTRL as you do so). 4) Select the objects starting from the 12 o'clock position and going clockwise. 5) Arrange!
Things can be made a little clearer by adding an arrow shaped start marker to the circle, and grouping each object with a number. That makes it easier to see what order they're being placed in, and in which direction.
Devs: it would be useful to have an option in the dialog for the first object to be placed at the start point of the circle, rather than part way around it (60 degrees in this case). I think that would lead to fewer surprises for most users and eliminates the need for step (3) above. Another checkbox to reverse the direction of placement would alleviate the need to flip the circle or select items in the "opposite" order. Brynn, perhaps you should file a feature request for these?
Mark
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:15 AM, Brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
Hi Maren, Thanks. As I said, I get the same results whether Rotate Objects is checked or not. I don't understand what you mean about them being rotated before they are placed on the circle. The "before" image, showing where the 6 objects start from, is move-rad6.png. They are IN A circle, but they are not ON THE circle. The "after" image, showing them rotated and on the circle, after I use the Arrange dialog, is move-rad7.png. Attached is an SVG file with the objects all ready to be tested. It could be that I have some kind of misunderstanding about how this feature works. What I want to do is move those 6 objects shown in move-rad6.png to where they are touching the circle or on the circle (or move them out, further away from the circle, but still in a circle and without scaling them). (And I want to do it without using tiled clones, which is a pain.)
Thanks again, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...3112...> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 6:53 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] problem with Arrange?
Hi Brynn,
does it work if you uncheck the option "Rotate objects"? Looks like your objects are already rotated before you place them on the circle.
Rotating them a second time is probably not what you want.
Kind regards, Maren
Am 04.01.2016 um 04:15 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Friends, I've been trying to use the Polor Coordinates tab of the Arrange dialog, to move some objects which are arranged in a circle, inward (or outward) without scaling them. Yes, I know it can be done with radially tiled clones, but I didn't want to do it that way this time. Attached is move-rad6.png, which is the "before", and I want to move those 6 objects toward the circle. No matter if I use the object's bounding box for the anchor point, or the rotational center, the result is the other attached image move-rad7.png. This is the same result, no matter if Rotate Objects is checked or not. This is on Windows 7, 64-bit with Inkscape 0.91, 32-bit, exe installer. I haven't tried in Inkscape 0.91, 64-bit, but I can if necessary. And these screenshots were made on layer 3, to avoid the transform attribute issues (which are mostly fixed, but not in 0.91). Another user on Windows 10 does not see this issue, but Idk which Inkscape version he uses. (http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?topic=307.0) I work with circles and objects arranged in a circle quite often, and have always wished for a way to move objects radially, in the same way that nodes can be moved radially by using the transform handles. Again, I know how to use tiled clones, but it seems like there should be an easier way to just move the objects on canvas by dragging them. I'm not technically aware enough to be able to suggest how it could be done. But I think would be a very useful feature....especially if it could work on ellipses as well. Meanwhile, I report this problem in case it might be a bug. Let me know if I can provide any additional info :-)
Thank you very much, brynn
Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
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Wow -- that's pretty crazy! If only I had a clue from the start....
(Is there any ETA on an updated manual? Or is anyone interested in starting work on an "open" manual? Do we need a "professional" or perfect translation of Elisa's French manual before we can even start? Wouldn't a close enough translation be ok as a starting point?)
(Sorry for the mini-rant.)
Thanks Mark.
I had rotated the circle by 30 degrees (+30). (and using Transform dialog, because when rotating a circle with Ctrl, I can't tell when a "step" has been made, so I don't know when to stop dragging -- so Transform dialog works better) Sometimes I was selecting 1 at a time clockwise, circle last, and sometimes I was dragging a selection box around everything including the circle.
But, even when I follow your steps, I get exactly the same result.
Only place where there could be a problem, is using Transform dialog to rotate. Is -30 the same in Transform dialog, as on canvas?
Thanks again, brynn
__________________________________
From: Mark Crutch Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 3:28 AM To: Inkscape User Community Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] problem with Arrange?
Brynn,
I think there are a few reasons for your problem:
1) The arrange dialog moves the objects based on their selection order (first selected to point one, second selected to point two...). To ensure that you get a predictable order you need to shift-select each item in turn, not use CTRL-A or rubber band selection. It can be useful to group each object with a number entered with the text tool, to make it clearer how they're being placed.
2) It's not usually obvious from looking at a circle which direction is "positive". Try adding an arrow-shaped start marker to the circle to show you the positive direction. With a freshly drawn circle you get better results (in this case) if you either select the objects in an anti-clockwise order, or flip the circle horizontally first before selecting them in a clockwise order.
3) Once you do that, you'll find that the objects are close to the correct positions, but not quite there. With six objects selected, the first will be placed at 60 degrees from the start point of the circle, the second at 120 degrees, and so on. To get them into the right position, therefore, you need to adjust the rotation of the circle to compensate.
So, with that in mind, these steps will get you to the solution you want:
1) Discard the existing circle and draw a new one, so that we've got a known starting point.
2) Flip the circle horizontally.
3) Rotate the circle by -30 degress (hold CTRL as you do so).
4) Select the objects starting from the 12 o'clock position and going clockwise.
5) Arrange!
Things can be made a little clearer by adding an arrow shaped start marker to the circle, and grouping each object with a number. That makes it easier to see what order they're being placed in, and in which direction.
Devs: it would be useful to have an option in the dialog for the first object to be placed at the start point of the circle, rather than part way around it (60 degrees in this case). I think that would lead to fewer surprises for most users and eliminates the need for step (3) above. Another checkbox to reverse the direction of placement would alleviate the need to flip the circle or select items in the "opposite" order. Brynn, perhaps you should file a feature request for these?
Mark
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:15 AM, Brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
Hi Maren, Thanks. As I said, I get the same results whether Rotate Objects is checked or not. I don't understand what you mean about them being rotated before they are placed on the circle. The "before" image, showing where the 6 objects start from, is move-rad6.png. They are IN A circle, but they are not ON THE circle. The "after" image, showing them rotated and on the circle, after I use the Arrange dialog, is move-rad7.png. Attached is an SVG file with the objects all ready to be tested. It could be that I have some kind of misunderstanding about how this feature works. What I want to do is move those 6 objects shown in move-rad6.png to where they are touching the circle or on the circle (or move them out, further away from the circle, but still in a circle and without scaling them). (And I want to do it without using tiled clones, which is a pain.)
Thanks again, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...3112...> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 6:53 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] problem with Arrange?
Hi Brynn,
does it work if you uncheck the option "Rotate objects"? Looks like your objects are already rotated before you place them on the circle.
Rotating them a second time is probably not what you want.
Kind regards, Maren
Am 04.01.2016 um 04:15 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Friends, I've been trying to use the Polor Coordinates tab of the Arrange dialog, to move some objects which are arranged in a circle, inward (or outward) without scaling them. Yes, I know it can be done with radially tiled clones, but I didn't want to do it that way this time. Attached is move-rad6.png, which is the "before", and I want to move those 6 objects toward the circle. No matter if I use the object's bounding box for the anchor point, or the rotational center, the result is the other attached image move-rad7.png. This is the same result, no matter if Rotate Objects is checked or not. This is on Windows 7, 64-bit with Inkscape 0.91, 32-bit, exe installer. I haven't tried in Inkscape 0.91, 64-bit, but I can if necessary. And these screenshots were made on layer 3, to avoid the transform attribute issues (which are mostly fixed, but not in 0.91). Another user on Windows 10 does not see this issue, but Idk which Inkscape version he uses. (http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?topic=307.0) I work with circles and objects arranged in a circle quite often, and have always wished for a way to move objects radially, in the same way that nodes can be moved radially by using the transform handles. Again, I know how to use tiled clones, but it seems like there should be an easier way to just move the objects on canvas by dragging them. I'm not technically aware enough to be able to suggest how it could be done. But I think would be a very useful feature....especially if it could work on ellipses as well. Meanwhile, I report this problem in case it might be a bug. Let me know if I can provide any additional info :-)
Thank you very much, brynn
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On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
I had rotated the circle by 30 degrees (+30). (and using Transform dialog, because when rotating a circle with Ctrl, I can't tell when a "step" has been made, so I don't know when to stop dragging
My #1 tip for using Inkscape applies here: keep an eye on the status bar.
But, even when I follow your steps, I get exactly the same result.
Your circle is rotated -30 degrees from the default. My instructions said to flip the circle, *then* rotate by -30 degrees, which gives a different result.
If you don't do the flip first, then you have to rotate (from the default) by +30 degrees, and ensure that you select the objects in an anti-clockwise order.
I've attached a step-by-step, based on the file you provided, which should hopefully clarify things a bit.
Mark
Hi Mark, Yes, I did flip it before I rotated it. But I will look at your file, and follow those instructions.
TA From: Mark Crutch Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 6:39 AM To: Inkscape User Community Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] problem with Arrange?
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
I had rotated the circle by 30 degrees (+30). (and using Transform dialog, because when rotating a circle with Ctrl, I can't tell when a "step" has been made, so I don't know when to stop dragging
My #1 tip for using Inkscape applies here: keep an eye on the status bar.
But, even when I follow your steps, I get exactly the same result.
Your circle is rotated -30 degrees from the default. My instructions said to flip the circle, *then* rotate by -30 degrees, which gives a different result.
If you don't do the flip first, then you have to rotate (from the default) by +30 degrees, and ensure that you select the objects in an anti-clockwise order.
I've attached a step-by-step, based on the file you provided, which should hopefully clarify things a bit.
Mark
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Ok, here's where the problem was. In your step #3, in the SVG file, when you rotate -30 degrees, the arrow is pointing clockwise, which I thought was the positive direction.
Thanks for your help Mark.
I've written this and deleted it 3 times, but now I'll post it. This is way too complicated, and certainly nothing close to intuitive. I never, ever could have figured that out on my own (and almost didn't get it, even with help). And I consider myself to be a well-experienced, although just intermediate user.
There are 4 "secrets" to make this work -- none of which I could have guessed.
1 - object #1 must be placed on point #1 in the circle 2 - the circle, despite being a shape and not a path, has directionality 3 - the circle has to be rotated backwards, and possibly flipped, depending on the desired selection order 4 - objects have to be selected in a certain order
____________________________
From: Mark Crutch Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 6:39 AM To: Inkscape User Community Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] problem with Arrange?
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
I had rotated the circle by 30 degrees (+30). (and using Transform dialog, because when rotating a circle with Ctrl, I can't tell when a "step" has been made, so I don't know when to stop dragging
My #1 tip for using Inkscape applies here: keep an eye on the status bar.
But, even when I follow your steps, I get exactly the same result.
Your circle is rotated -30 degrees from the default. My instructions said to flip the circle, *then* rotate by -30 degrees, which gives a different result.
If you don't do the flip first, then you have to rotate (from the default) by +30 degrees, and ensure that you select the objects in an anti-clockwise order.
I've attached a step-by-step, based on the file you provided, which should hopefully clarify things a bit.
Mark
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On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
Ok, here's where the problem was. In your step #3, in the SVG file, when you rotate -30 degrees, the arrow is pointing clockwise, which I thought was the positive direction.
Ah... I was basing "-30 degrees" on the text in the status bar, rather than anything to do with the orientation of the circle.
There are 4 "secrets" to make this work -- none of which I could have
guessed.
1 - object #1 must be placed on point #1 in the circle 2 - the circle, despite being a shape and not a path, has directionality 3 - the circle has to be rotated backwards, and possibly flipped, depending on the desired selection order 4 - objects have to be selected in a certain order
In fairness to the Inkscape devs, a big part of the issue is that your objects were already rotated, and therefore had to be placed in specific locations in a specific order. Try it again with six copies of object 1 (i.e. the non-rotated one):
1) Ensure that "Rotate objects is enabled in the dialog. 2) Rubberband select all six objects, plus the circle. 3) Hit the Arrange button. 4) Rotate the whole result if you need it at a different angle.
A lot more straightforward!
I agree that it's not clear how the objects are placed, given that the direction and start point of the circle aren't obvious. Options to place them in reverse order, and to put the first on the start point of the circle, would make things a little clearer, but not by much.
I think what's really needed for this case (and many others) is another tab: "Align to nodes". This would align each object onto the nodes of a target path, with the first object on node 1, the second on node 2, and so on. That would have simplified this problem by letting you use a more obvious hexagon (from the Star tool) to set the target locations.
Mark
Ah, well I certainly didn't mean to complain, or insult developers. As I said a couple of times, I thought there was good chance I wasn't understanding that feature.
I was just looking for a way for objects which are arranged in a circle to be moved inwards towards the center, or outwards away, without scaling, and without using tiled clones. The Polor Coord. tab of Arrange dialog was suggested to me, so I was trying to make it work.
In this case, it's not a good solution, because those 6 objects "were born" where they are. I didn't draw one, duplicate, rotate and place them there. It was from a difference of a star shape minus pieces of another star shape. Something that I do quite often, and why I wish so much for an easier way to move pieces radially.
Anyway, thank you very much for taking the time to make the tutorial and explain the problem. :-)
All best, brynn
_______________________
From: Mark Crutch Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 10:21 AM To: Inkscape User Community Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] problem with Arrange?
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
Ok, here's where the problem was. In your step #3, in the SVG file, when you rotate -30 degrees, the arrow is pointing clockwise, which I thought was the positive direction.
Ah... I was basing "-30 degrees" on the text in the status bar, rather than anything to do with the orientation of the circle.
There are 4 "secrets" to make this work -- none of which I could have guessed.
1 - object #1 must be placed on point #1 in the circle 2 - the circle, despite being a shape and not a path, has directionality 3 - the circle has to be rotated backwards, and possibly flipped, depending on the desired selection order 4 - objects have to be selected in a certain order
In fairness to the Inkscape devs, a big part of the issue is that your objects were already rotated, and therefore had to be placed in specific locations in a specific order. Try it again with six copies of object 1 (i.e. the non-rotated one):
1) Ensure that "Rotate objects is enabled in the dialog. 2) Rubberband select all six objects, plus the circle. 3) Hit the Arrange button. 4) Rotate the whole result if you need it at a different angle.
A lot more straightforward!
I agree that it's not clear how the objects are placed, given that the direction and start point of the circle aren't obvious. Options to place them in reverse order, and to put the first on the start point of the circle, would make things a little clearer, but not by much.
I think what's really needed for this case (and many others) is another tab: "Align to nodes". This would align each object onto the nodes of a target path, with the first object on node 1, the second on node 2, and so on. That would have simplified this problem by letting you use a more obvious hexagon (from the Star tool) to set the target locations.
Mark
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participants (3)
-
Brynn -
Maren Hachmann -
Mark Crutch