Hi.
I was wondering there is any place where I could have more information about feature support for Inkscape SVG vs plain SVG. Also, I believe SVG does not support CMYK colour space colours (as per Tavmjong Bah's brilliant userguide), and this is important for logos and even EPS export gets imported in Scribus with RGB colours....
Any news on the planned CMYK support?
Cedric
On Friday, July 20, 2007, 11:27:05 AM, Cedric wrote:
CS> Hi.
CS> I was wondering there is any place where I could have more information about CS> feature support for Inkscape SVG vs plain SVG. CS> Also, I believe SVG does not support CMYK colour space colours
Thats incorrect.
SVG supports calibrated color spaces including CMYK ones.
CS> (as per CS> Tavmjong Bah's brilliant userguide), and this is important for logos and CS> even EPS export gets imported in Scribus with RGB colours....
perhaps you could produce your logo in an application which does support CMYK... then... in Inkscape 0.45, trace this. I used a higher number of color passes.
Its not 100% inkscape, but maybe just right for logos ?
Cedric Sagne-2 wrote:
Hi.
I was wondering there is any place where I could have more information about feature support for Inkscape SVG vs plain SVG. Also, I believe SVG does not support CMYK colour space colours (as per Tavmjong Bah's brilliant userguide), and this is important for logos and even EPS export gets imported in Scribus with RGB colours....
Any news on the planned CMYK support?
Cedric
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Hi!
Tracing won't help anyway, because everything that come out from Inkscape is RGB (SVG specification doesn't has CMYK yet). Also, tracing would generate vectors that would require optimisation (less nodes, more precision etc...). Although there is a CMYK color chooser in the Fill and Stroke dialog window, it's behaving a little bit differently than expected from a CMYK capable application (see bug 1221603 located at http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1221603&gro...).
Personally I wouldn't recommend Inkscape for professional use in the field of logo or print design. It is still a very young and promising application suitable for creating icons, web graphics and illustrations, but creating such an important thing as a logo (a whole corporate identity can be based on this apparently simple thing) is not a task for Inkscape. There are several capabilities that are required from an application to become suitable for professional logo design or printed design:
- a robust PDF import/export (the brave Inkscape developers are working on that, 0.46 should be the first version with that possibility). It is crucial to have a full import/export capability for at least one widely used vector format, and PDF is IMO one of the best candidates. Without that, all the works you do in Inkscape are sentenced to stay "Inkscape only" files. A logo simply MUST be portable between applications (Illustrator, Indesign, Quark, Corel etc...).
- CMYK support (color profiles support, so the colors shown on screen would at least partly match the colors you'll get from the printer). CMYKOG (for hexachromatic process) would be great to have too, but it's not a must.
- Spot color palettes (like Pantone, TOYO) are also required, but there is a problem related to licencing and proprietary stuff so implementing that in an Open Source application is problematic...
Molumen
----- Original Message ----- From: "stuseven" <stuseven@...9...> To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape SVG extension / CMYK support
perhaps you could produce your logo in an application which does support CMYK... then... in Inkscape 0.45, trace this. I used a higher number of color passes.
Its not 100% inkscape, but maybe just right for logos ?
Cedric Sagne-2 wrote:
Hi.
I was wondering there is any place where I could have more information about feature support for Inkscape SVG vs plain SVG. Also, I believe SVG does not support CMYK colour space colours (as per Tavmjong Bah's brilliant userguide), and this is important for logos and even EPS export gets imported in Scribus with RGB colours....
Any news on the planned CMYK support?
Cedric
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On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 11:38:16AM +0200, momo wrote:
It is crucial to have a full import/export capability for at least one widely used vector format, and PDF is IMO one of the best candidates. Without that, all the works you do in Inkscape are sentenced to stay "Inkscape only" files. A logo simply MUST be portable between applications (Illustrator, Indesign, Quark, Corel etc...).
- CMYK support (color profiles support, so the colors shown on screen
would at least partly match the colors you'll get from the printer). CMYKOG (for hexachromatic process) would be great to have too, but it's not a must.
I'm not sure I can agree with either of the above. My employers' company logo is specified in an EPS file, and its colours are specified with Pantone and are out-of-gamut for CMYK and sRGB. We keep on file approximations to it in several vector and raster formats.
I think there's a pretty strong case to be made for EPS as a candidate for vector interchange between existing applications. I also think it's pretty short-sighted to describe SVG as an Inkscape-only format. I can't think of any free graphics application that doesn't have SVG support these days, and as we've seen from people's queries on the mailing lists, various non-free applications now support it with differing degrees of saneness.
As for colour spaces, you seem to understand that even CMYK support is not enough for hardcore logo and printing design. And of course let's not forget that Inkscape, like other SVG-aware applications, is constrained by the lack of support in the standard. Until the new SVG standard, which (I believe) is planned to support CMYK, is out, we'll all just have to wait. Speaking only for myself, there's no hurry, as I only use Inkscape to design for the screen anyway.
Incidentally, I had a bit of a laugh reading the chunk added at the bottom:
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges.
The first time I saw this I read it as "Deify all challenges," which I thought was much closer to the point.
I think there's a pretty strong case to be made for EPS as a candidate for vector interchange between existing applications. I also think it's pretty short-sighted to describe SVG as an Inkscape-only format. I can't think of any free graphics application that doesn't have SVG support these days, and as we've seen from people's queries on the mailing lists, various non-free applications now support it with differing degrees of saneness.
Yes, EPS is actually a good candidate for the role of vector interchange format, but PDF has a big advantage: it can be multipage (and multipage documents are on the list of Inkscape future features). Also, EPS and PDF are actually postscript formats, so basically they're moreless the same... Also, I didn't say that SVG was an Inkscape-only format. It is widely spread among proprietary and free software. I wanted to say that graphic works for printing done in Inkscape could stay Inkscape-only, because of the poor support of SVG among proprietary software. Both illustrator and Corel Draw have problems importing SVG files, specially gradients. Features like blur aren't supported at all (but hopefully will be in the future). So designing something for the printing world in Inkscape with the goal of spreading the result among other software is for now not recommended.
Speaking only for myself, there's no hurry, as I only use Inkscape to design for the screen anyway.
That's exactly the same for me. Inkscape is specially great for icons.
Molumen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Hulme" <art@...1790...> To: "Inkscape User Community" inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape SVG extension / CMYK support
On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 11:38:16AM +0200, momo wrote:
It is crucial to have a full import/export capability for at least one widely used vector format, and PDF is IMO one of the best candidates. Without that, all the works you do in Inkscape are sentenced to stay "Inkscape only" files. A logo simply MUST be portable between applications (Illustrator, Indesign, Quark, Corel etc...).
- CMYK support (color profiles support, so the colors shown on screen
would at least partly match the colors you'll get from the printer). CMYKOG (for hexachromatic process) would be great to have too, but it's not a must.
I'm not sure I can agree with either of the above. My employers' company logo is specified in an EPS file, and its colours are specified with Pantone and are out-of-gamut for CMYK and sRGB. We keep on file approximations to it in several vector and raster formats.
I think there's a pretty strong case to be made for EPS as a candidate for vector interchange between existing applications. I also think it's pretty short-sighted to describe SVG as an Inkscape-only format. I can't think of any free graphics application that doesn't have SVG support these days, and as we've seen from people's queries on the mailing lists, various non-free applications now support it with differing degrees of saneness.
As for colour spaces, you seem to understand that even CMYK support is not enough for hardcore logo and printing design. And of course let's not forget that Inkscape, like other SVG-aware applications, is constrained by the lack of support in the standard. Until the new SVG standard, which (I believe) is planned to support CMYK, is out, we'll all just have to wait. Speaking only for myself, there's no hurry, as I only use Inkscape to design for the screen anyway.
Incidentally, I had a bit of a laugh reading the chunk added at the bottom:
This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges.
The first time I saw this I read it as "Deify all challenges," which I thought was much closer to the point.
On 7/23/07, momo <momo@...1935...> wrote:
Personally I wouldn't recommend Inkscape for professional use in the field of logo or print design. It is still a very young and promising application suitable for creating icons, web graphics and illustrations, but creating such an important thing as a logo (a whole corporate identity can be based on this apparently simple thing) is not a task for Inkscape.
It always amazes me when a huge creative design task is being reduced to some technical detail. Choosing Pantone color(s) is important for corporate logos, but it's only a small part of the job, and it's pretty orthogonal to anything else because a good logo must look perfect in black and white anyway. It's easy to use AI or whatever else for the CMYK and Pantone selection after the logo is done. But 99% of work is playing with shapes and letters, and this is where Inkscape is IMHO unrivaled.
- a robust PDF import/export (the brave Inkscape developers are working on
that, 0.46 should be the first version with that possibility). It is crucial to have a full import/export capability for at least one widely used vector format, and PDF is IMO one of the best candidates. Without that, all the works you do in Inkscape are sentenced to stay "Inkscape only" files. A logo simply MUST be portable between applications (Illustrator, Indesign, Quark, Corel etc...).
For logos especially, our PS and PDF export has been quite adequate for many versions, because decent logos never use things like blur or transparency, nor even gradients. Even our EPS import, while cumbersome, has always been able to handle simple shapes. And in SVN you have a pretty functional PDF import which also handles modern AI files.
On 7/23/07, momo <momo@...1935...> wrote:
Yes, EPS is actually a good candidate for the role of vector interchange format, but PDF has a big advantage: it can be multipage (and multipage documents are on the list of Inkscape future features). Also, EPS and PDF are actually postscript formats, so basically they're moreless the same...
Not really. PDF is much simpler to parse - unlike PDF it's not a "language" which is a big plus. And in recent versions, PDF got a lot of things that will never be added to PS, such as true vector transparency and even gradient meshes. So it's really a good time to leave PS/EPS behind.
On 7/23/07, bulia byak <buliabyak@...155...> wrote:
Not really. PDF is much simpler to parse - unlike PDF it's not a
...unlike PS of course...
On Monday, July 23, 2007, 1:28:34 PM, Daniel wrote:
DH> As for colour spaces, you seem to understand that even CMYK support is DH> not enough for hardcore logo and printing design. And of course let's DH> not forget that Inkscape, like other SVG-aware applications, is DH> constrained by the lack of support in the standard. Until the new SVG DH> standard, which (I believe) is planned to support CMYK, is out,
SVG 1.0 supported calibrated CMYK color spaces. It became a W3C Recommendation in 04 September 2001.
SVG Print 1.2 additionally supports uncalibrated CMYK. There is a working draft available which is expected to go to Last call soon.
As you said, SVG isn't an Inkscape-only format. Its useful to distinguish what the specification itself supports, vs what a given implementation supports.
On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 06:35:00PM +0200, Chris Lilley wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2007, 1:28:34 PM, Daniel wrote:
DH> As for colour spaces, you seem to understand that even CMYK support is DH> not enough for hardcore logo and printing design. And of course let's DH> not forget that Inkscape, like other SVG-aware applications, is DH> constrained by the lack of support in the standard. Until the new SVG DH> standard, which (I believe) is planned to support CMYK, is out,
SVG 1.0 supported calibrated CMYK color spaces. It became a W3C Recommendation in 04 September 2001.
SVG Print 1.2 additionally supports uncalibrated CMYK. There is a working draft available which is expected to go to Last call soon.
I'm glad you clarified that. Would I be correct in saying that the Inkscape people are hanging on for 1.2 before unleashing CMYK on us? As I say, it's not a feature I have any need for, but I am now curious to know.
For logos especially, our PS and PDF export has been quite adequate for many versions, because decent logos never use things like blur or transparency, nor even gradients.
Bulia,
I can't agree with you on that point. Thousands of logos use gradients or even transparency (true, blur is not used commonly because it is not supported in the major vector file formats and by major applications). Of course a logo must also have its black&white, grayscale and simplified (solid) versions and should work on dark, colored or white background (all this among many other things is part of the logo manual).
here's a few examples of logos using gradients: http://brandsoftheworld.com/search/?query_id=9999816&page=1&mtype=&a... http://brandsoftheworld.com/search/?query_id=10000392&page=2&mtype=&... http://brandsoftheworld.com/search/?query_id=10000554&page=1&mtype=&... http://brandsoftheworld.com/categories/food/125004.html
Also, I tested the latest SVN, and I can tell you that I am amazed by the development speed of the PDF import function. And as I said previously on the devel list, if you need all kinds of PDFs for testing purposes, please let me know. I'd be glad to help!
Molumen
----- Original Message ----- From: "bulia byak" <buliabyak@...155...> To: "Inkscape User Community" inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape SVG extension / CMYK support
On 7/23/07, momo <momo@...1935...> wrote:
Personally I wouldn't recommend Inkscape for professional use in the field of logo or print design. It is still a very young and promising application suitable for creating icons, web graphics and illustrations, but creating such an important thing as a logo (a whole corporate identity can be based on this apparently simple thing) is not a task for Inkscape.
It always amazes me when a huge creative design task is being reduced to some technical detail. Choosing Pantone color(s) is important for corporate logos, but it's only a small part of the job, and it's pretty orthogonal to anything else because a good logo must look perfect in black and white anyway. It's easy to use AI or whatever else for the CMYK and Pantone selection after the logo is done. But 99% of work is playing with shapes and letters, and this is where Inkscape is IMHO unrivaled.
- a robust PDF import/export (the brave Inkscape developers are working
on that, 0.46 should be the first version with that possibility). It is crucial to have a full import/export capability for at least one widely used vector format, and PDF is IMO one of the best candidates. Without that, all the works you do in Inkscape are sentenced to stay "Inkscape only" files. A logo simply MUST be portable between applications (Illustrator, Indesign, Quark, Corel etc...).
For logos especially, our PS and PDF export has been quite adequate for many versions, because decent logos never use things like blur or transparency, nor even gradients. Even our EPS import, while cumbersome, has always been able to handle simple shapes. And in SVN you have a pretty functional PDF import which also handles modern AI files.
-- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org
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On Monday, July 23, 2007, 6:51:58 PM, Daniel wrote:
DH> On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 06:35:00PM +0200, Chris Lilley wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2007, 1:28:34 PM, Daniel wrote:
DH> As for colour spaces, you seem to understand that even CMYK support is DH> not enough for hardcore logo and printing design. And of course let's DH> not forget that Inkscape, like other SVG-aware applications, is DH> constrained by the lack of support in the standard. Until the new SVG DH> standard, which (I believe) is planned to support CMYK, is out,
SVG 1.0 supported calibrated CMYK color spaces. It became a W3C Recommendation in 04 September 2001.
SVG Print 1.2 additionally supports uncalibrated CMYK. There is a working draft available which is expected to go to Last call soon.
DH> I'm glad you clarified that. Would I be correct in saying that the DH> Inkscape people are hanging on for 1.2 before unleashing CMYK on us?
Only if they are hanging on for uncalibrated CMYK, ie CMYK that doesn't say what actual color is required.
For calibrated CMYK, its already there in the standard, so anyone can implement it.
DH> As DH> I say, it's not a feature I have any need for, but I am now curious to DH> know.
On 7/23/07, momo <momo@...1935...> wrote: http://brandsoftheworld.com/search/?query_id=9999816&page=1&mtype=&a...
http://brandsoftheworld.com/search/?query_id=10000392&page=2&mtype=&... http://brandsoftheworld.com/search/?query_id=10000554&page=1&mtype=&... http://brandsoftheworld.com/categories/food/125004.html
This is getting off topic... but I wouldn't really call these quality corporate logos - except for Chevron which is indeed a rare exception where gradients actually change the meaning of the shape and not just adorn it.
On Sat, 2007-07-21 at 21:33 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote:
CS> I was wondering there is any place where I could have more information about CS> feature support for Inkscape SVG vs plain SVG. CS> Also, I believe SVG does not support CMYK colour space colours
Thats incorrect.
SVG supports calibrated color spaces including CMYK ones.
As Chris points out, SVG does support this via its icc-color mechanism; Inkscape has very preliminary support for this, though I don't think it's to the point where it's useful for design work yet.
There's also the issue of color spaces used for compositing, which I _think_ is less completely addressed by SVG, but for which Inkscape is also much further away from being able to handle.
Inkscape (as of 0.45, I think?) does already does support ICC profiles for display.
-mental
On 7/24/07, MenTaLguY <mental@...32...> wrote:
Inkscape (as of 0.45, I think?) does already does support ICC profiles for display.
AFAIK it only supports profiles for embedded bitmaps.
bulia byak wrote:
On 7/24/07, MenTaLguY <mental@...32...> wrote:
Inkscape (as of 0.45, I think?) does already does support ICC profiles for display.
AFAIK it only supports profiles for embedded bitmaps.
Correct. I recall JonCruz saying that PJRM was working on stuff for it to apply to all objects, but that was a long time ago. Since then, I know that JonCruz had started refactoring our handling of "paint", which was an important part of making this all useful. Unfortunately, I haven't seen him in a couple months now, so who know if it's still being worked on. :(
-Josh
On Monday 23 July 2007, bulia byak wrote:
On 7/23/07, momo <momo@...1935...> wrote:
Yes, EPS is actually a good candidate for the role of vector interchange format, but PDF has a big advantage: it can be multipage (and multipage documents are on the list of Inkscape future features). Also, EPS and PDF are actually postscript formats, so basically they're moreless the same...
Not really. PDF is much simpler to parse - unlike PDF it's not a "language" which is a big plus. And in recent versions, PDF got a lot of things that will never be added to PS, such as true vector transparency and even gradient meshes. So it's really a good time to leave PS/EPS behind.
OTOH the utilities that work (psutils etc.) are ps utilities and not pdf utilities. So one has to convert from pdf to ps to use them.
I still think that SVG is a very good exchange format. PDF is a defacto standard that has to be supported as well to be compatible with the proprietary world and printing, but SVG, in conjunction with the upcoming printing profile and other future modules (vector effects/filters, etc.) is clearly more forward looking and easier to manipulate than PDF. Just think about XSL-FO, XML-based publishing, etc. Clearly an XML based format like SVG fits better here.
Andreas
On Monday 23 July 2007, bulia byak wrote:
On 7/23/07, momo <momo@...1935...> wrote:
Yes, EPS is actually a good candidate for the role of vector interchange format, but PDF has a big advantage: it can be multipage (and multipage documents are on the list of Inkscape future features). Also, EPS and PDF are actually postscript formats, so basically they're moreless the same...
Not really. PDF is much simpler to parse - unlike PDF it's not a "language" which is a big plus. And in recent versions, PDF got a lot of things that will never be added to PS, such as true vector transparency and even gradient meshes. So it's really a good time to leave PS/EPS behind.
OTOH the utilities that work (psutils etc.) are ps utilities and not pdf utilities. So one has to convert from pdf to ps to use them.
-- John Culleton ATTN Publishers/authors: If you don't read you don't succeed. Free short list of publishing/marketing books. http://wexfordpress.com/tex/shortlist.pdf
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On Jul 24, 2007, at 3:17 PM, Joshua A. Andler wrote:
Correct. I recall JonCruz saying that PJRM was working on stuff for it to apply to all objects, but that was a long time ago. Since then, I know that JonCruz had started refactoring our handling of "paint", which was an important part of making this all useful. Unfortunately, I haven't seen him in a couple months now, so who know if it's still being worked on. :(
Finally back in the house and settling in.
We've got probably about 20 files that need minor updates, and one or two for real work.
Good news is that once things are in, we've already coordinated work with the Scribus guys. We will just need to wind up a few things on the details of placement and then hand off to them.
One main caveat on the CMYK support we get is in processing. We will specify things in CMYK, however SVG has us doing all interpolation in the RGB color space. Doing otherwise will take a fair bit of extra work.
On Friday, August 24, 2007, 9:09:08 AM, Jon wrote:
JAC> One main caveat on the CMYK support we get is in processing. We JAC> will specify things in CMYK, however SVG has us doing all JAC> interpolation in the RGB color space. Doing otherwise will take JAC> a fair bit of extra work.
Note that SVG Print adds more options to interpolation color space, including a CIE-Lab option (and a polar option, CIE-LCHab) http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGPrint12/#interpolation
This will avoid gamut clipping during interpolation, when ICC CMYK values outside the sRGB gamut are specified.
As a forward looking measure, it would be useful to allow for that flexibility in the code if possible.
Note that SVG 1.0/1.1 already has two options for the interpolation colorspace, sRGB and linearRGB. http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#ColorInterpolationProperties
(Of course, you would almost never want to interpolate in CMYK directly.)
On Aug 29, 2007, at 9:11 AM, Chris Lilley wrote:
Note that SVG Print adds more options to interpolation color space, including a CIE-Lab option (and a polar option, CIE-LCHab) http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGPrint12/#interpolation
This will avoid gamut clipping during interpolation, when ICC CMYK values outside the sRGB gamut are specified.
As a forward looking measure, it would be useful to allow for that flexibility in the code if possible.
Yes, we've been tracking SVG 1.2 and print 1.2 for a bit now. Any idea when they both will be "fixed" enough to use?
Some are a little cautious about adopting draft features since we had issues in the past with some text ones.
But... on the timing front... we'll get CMYK going with 1.1 icc-color () features and clear things with the Scribus guys to help get users a color-managed workflow through at least one way.
On Jul 23, 2007, at 10:01 AM, Chris Lilley wrote:
DH> I'm glad you clarified that. Would I be correct in saying that the DH> Inkscape people are hanging on for 1.2 before unleashing CMYK on us?
Only if they are hanging on for uncalibrated CMYK, ie CMYK that doesn't say what actual color is required.
For calibrated CMYK, its already there in the standard, so anyone can implement it.
Just in case people are tracking this, I figured I should mention that basic icc-color support is now in the current SVN sources. The internals got a good reworking and now I've gotten the UI to start showing up a bit.
So with a build from recent source one should be able to specify colors using an attached icc profile and have those values preserved in the SVG. To do true CMYK colors just hook in a profile for your target CMYK device and have at it.
I also just added simple display calibration correction.
Also, key guys on the Scribus team are aware of the progress, and will be addressing what's needed to handle a nice workflow. Of course, you'll have to hear from them on their timeframe, but I did get the impression that at least the initial end-to-end hookup won't be *too* difficult.
On Wednesday, September 26, 2007, 8:03:55 AM, Jon wrote:
JAC> On Jul 23, 2007, at 10:01 AM, Chris Lilley wrote:
DH>> I'm glad you clarified that. Would I be correct in saying that the JAC> DH>> Inkscape people are hanging on for 1.2 before unleashing CMYK on us? JAC>
JAC> Only if they are hanging on for uncalibrated CMYK, ie CMYK that JAC> doesn't say what actual color is required. JAC>
JAC> For calibrated CMYK, its already there in the standard, so anyone can implement it. JAC>
JAC> Just in case people are tracking this,
Yeah, actually :)
JAC> I figured I should JAC> mention that basic icc-color support is now in the current SVN JAC> sources. The internals got a good reworking and now I've gotten JAC> the UI to start showing up a bit.
Yay!
JAC> So with a build from recent source one should be able to specify JAC> colors using an attached icc profile and have those values JAC> preserved in the SVG. To do true CMYK colors just hook in a JAC> profile for your target CMYK device and have at it.
Excellent. Look forward to testing this.
JAC> I also just added simple display calibration correction.
So colors are converted to the profile of the display?
JAC> Also, key guys on the Scribus team are aware of the progress, JAC> and will be addressing what's needed to handle a nice workflow.
Even better!
JAC> Of course, you'll have to hear from them on their timeframe, but JAC> I did get the impression that at least the initial end-to-end JAC> hookup won't be *too* difficult.
participants (11)
-
Andreas Neumann -
bulia byak -
Cedric Sagne -
Chris Lilley -
Daniel Hulme -
John R. Culleton -
Jon A. Cruz -
Joshua A. Andler -
MenTaLguY -
momo -
stuseven