Freedom from systemd
Hi all,
On Debian Wheezy, a look at dependencies indicates that Inscape depends on dbus, via libgnomevfs2-0 and some other dependency routes. Modern dbus has been co-opted by systemd, which I, and a lot of other people, are refusing to put on their computers.
What would it take to get rid of all direct and indirect dependencies on systemd?
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014, at 11:07 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
Hi all,
On Debian Wheezy, a look at dependencies indicates that Inscape depends on dbus, via libgnomevfs2-0 and some other dependency routes. Modern dbus has been co-opted by systemd, which I, and a lot of other people, are refusing to put on their computers.
What would it take to get rid of all direct and indirect dependencies on systemd?
This seems like it might be a bit of a red herring. The type of dependency might be akin to saying that we rely on kernel x.y.z since we use the filesystem and the filesystem is provided by kernel x.y.z.
In the scenario you describe, one can get a 'clean' system by installing an implementation of dbus that does not rely on systemd and then removing systemd. Or more surgically by building inkscape with gnomevfs disabled.
On Fri, 2014-10-17 at 14:07 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
On Debian Wheezy, a look at dependencies indicates that Inscape depends on dbus, via libgnomevfs2-0 and some other dependency routes.
We're only directly dependent on dbus-glib, which is likely to be compatible with dbus-daemon for the foreseeable future.
Ted
Steve,
I understand you don't like systemd (I'm not a fan of llenart either) But...
DBus is a FDO (Freedesktop.org) specification which has been around for a long time. Attacking it because it's being used by systemd is rather annoying because it attacks the heart of cross-desktop collaboration. Making KDE, Gnome, Unity and the rest play well together. If were were to be biased against DBus then what's next; Remove XDG support? stop shipping .desktop files? No, we must continue to support properly specified and collaborative specifications from the freedesktop.org community and as developers support the notion that we can work on some problems outside of desktop fiefdoms to provide a better Linux Desktop platform for everyone.
Inkscape doesn't depend on systemd, and dbus doesn't depend on systemd. http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/dbus/ so it should be no problem to install dbus. Without it, you're not going to have much of a computer (certainly not a desktop computer).
But dbus support can be compiled out of inkscape because dbus support on windows in the early days was pretty poor. I believe it's better now.
Martin,
On 17 October 2014 14:07, Steve Litt <slitt@...2357...> wrote:
Hi all,
On Debian Wheezy, a look at dependencies indicates that Inscape depends on dbus, via libgnomevfs2-0 and some other dependency routes. Modern dbus has been co-opted by systemd, which I, and a lot of other people, are refusing to put on their computers.
What would it take to get rid of all direct and indirect dependencies on systemd?
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7. Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month. Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications. Take corrective actions from your mobile device. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 14:22:18 -0400 Martin Owens <doctormo@...155...> wrote:
But dbus support can be compiled out of inkscape because dbus support on windows in the early days was pretty poor. I believe it's better now.
Excellent! I'll compile it myself instead of getting it as a distro package. Two questions:
1) What's the command to compile it without dbus? Is it an arg to ./autogen.sh, an arg to ./configure, an environment var, or something else?
2) What's the most effective way for me to request of the Inkscape developers that they continue to have an option to remove dbus support, or in other words, keep the status quo?
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Steve,
Compiling out dbus might not help you, if the dependency is in gnomegvfs, then that's a hard dependency and is required to open files.
On 17 October 2014 14:39, Steve Litt <slitt@...2357...> wrote:
- What's the most effective way for me to request of the Inkscape developers that they continue to have an option to remove dbus support, or in other words, keep the status quo?
A couple of million dollars to hire all the core developers as permanent staff should do the trick ;-). Otherwise, become a developer and have sustained and positive contributions and enter into the debates about future technical directions.
Fundamentally dbus isn't your enemy (and systemd probably isn't either)
Martin,
On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 02:22:18PM -0400, Martin Owens wrote:
Steve,
I understand you don't like systemd (I'm not a fan of llenart either) But...
DBus is a FDO (Freedesktop.org) specification which has been around for a long time. Attacking it because it's being used by systemd is rather annoying because it attacks the heart of cross-desktop collaboration. Making KDE, Gnome, Unity and the rest play well together. If were were to be biased against DBus then what's next; Remove XDG support? stop shipping .desktop files? No, we must continue to support properly specified and collaborative specifications from the freedesktop.org community and as developers support the notion that we can work on some problems outside of desktop fiefdoms to provide a better Linux Desktop platform for everyone.
Inkscape doesn't depend on systemd, and dbus doesn't depend on systemd. http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/dbus/ so it should be no problem to install dbus. Without it, you're not going to have much of a computer (certainly not a desktop computer).
So I'd like Steve to tell us just what paths, in detail, make inkscape depend on systemd. I looked around in interactive aptitude, and didn't find them. Of course, I was looking at jessie, so maye the problem has been fixed, unlikely though that may be.
If inkscape itself does not depend on systemd, and the Debian packages do, that suggests that some package alternatives may not be set properly, or that Debiab has chosen to compile some packages in such a way that the binaries have more specific dependencies than the sources.
What would gentoo, or funtoo do?
-- hendrik
But dbus support can be compiled out of inkscape because dbus support on windows in the early days was pretty poor. I believe it's better now.
Martin,
On 17 October 2014 14:07, Steve Litt <slitt@...2357...> wrote:
Hi all,
On Debian Wheezy, a look at dependencies indicates that Inscape depends on dbus, via libgnomevfs2-0 and some other dependency routes. Modern dbus has been co-opted by systemd, which I, and a lot of other people, are refusing to put on their computers.
What would it take to get rid of all direct and indirect dependencies on systemd?
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7. Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month. Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications. Take corrective actions from your mobile device. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
Comprehensive Server Monitoring with Site24x7. Monitor 10 servers for $9/Month. Get alerted through email, SMS, voice calls or mobile push notifications. Take corrective actions from your mobile device. http://p.sf.net/sfu/Zoho _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
On Fri, 17 Oct 2014 14:39:34 -0400 Hendrik Boom <hendrik@...2611...> wrote:
If inkscape itself does not depend on systemd, and the Debian packages do, that suggests that some package alternatives may not be set properly, or that Debiab has chosen to compile some packages in such a way that the binaries have more specific dependencies than the sources.
What would gentoo, or funtoo do?
-- hendrik
Don't forget that by default debian will treat 'recommended' packages as dependencies - you need to disable that.
... long term Inkscaper :)
participants (6)
-
Abrolag -
Hendrik Boom -
Jon A. Cruz -
Martin Owens -
Steve Litt -
Ted Gould