A question about node positioning.
Hello,
in the past I designed a lot of civic arms using Freehand 9 and MX, and became quite friendly with it, though I always had to run it in VMware. I was long since then on the search for a replacement, and years ago stumbled upon sodipodi and now inkscape.
It fulfills almost all my needs, and far exceeds (in terms of usability w/ keystrokes, cloning/mirroring etc.) the possibilities I came to use in Freehand.
One thing though remains, which I'm at a loss in making them work as I want them to.
a) If I have a path, which is made up of various nodes (as happens with every shape, say a circle and a square, merged into a
a b +-------------+ | | | | | | | | + c + d _ _/ --_ _-- --+-- e shape. This later is comprised of five nodes (a..e). But if I want to place them on predefined positions, there's no possibility to do so, e.g. having Node e on (300, 0).
I can either use the mouse to drag it near this point (but will never manage to do it exactly), or use the XML editor, in which I don't see the point (b/c it's such a royal pain searching through it and finding finally this point. obviously this should then be done for all five points)
I can also use the grid and snap to grid functions, but I don't want to be limited to only integer numbers, sometimes I want a point to be at 0.155,10.245 (or something else),
So: is there a possibility to enter the coordinates one drags the node with the mouse (this would certainly also be cool for the handles of nodes)
--
cheers, Alex
Canæt help you.... But makes me think of a functionality in Flex (and maybe in Eclipse in general}, that could come in handy in here:
If you select an interace-object and then switch to "code-view", the corresponding object in the code is automatically selected or highlighted. If Inskcape could do a similar trick, to allow for all the weird things user could posibly want to alter... Not that exact node positioning is so weird, ofcourse...
Maarten
-----Original Message----- From: inkscape-user-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net [mailto:inkscape-user-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Alexander Roalter Sent: 28. juni 2007 22:02 To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Inkscape-user] A question about node positioning.
Hello,
in the past I designed a lot of civic arms using Freehand 9 and MX, and became quite friendly with it, though I always had to run it in VMware. I was long since then on the search for a replacement, and years ago stumbled upon sodipodi and now inkscape.
It fulfills almost all my needs, and far exceeds (in terms of usability w/ keystrokes, cloning/mirroring etc.) the possibilities I came to use in Freehand.
One thing though remains, which I'm at a loss in making them work as I want them to.
a) If I have a path, which is made up of various nodes (as happens with every shape, say a circle and a square, merged into a
a b +-------------+ | | | | | | | | + c + d _ _/ --_ _-- --+-- e shape. This later is comprised of five nodes (a..e). But if I want to place them on predefined positions, there's no possibility to do so, e.g. having Node e on (300, 0).
I can either use the mouse to drag it near this point (but will never manage to do it exactly), or use the XML editor, in which I don't see the point (b/c it's such a royal pain searching through it and finding finally this point. obviously this should then be done for all five points)
I can also use the grid and snap to grid functions, but I don't want to be limited to only integer numbers, sometimes I want a point to be at 0.155,10.245 (or something else),
So: is there a possibility to enter the coordinates one drags the node with the mouse (this would certainly also be cool for the handles of nodes)
--
cheers, Alex
-- Cheers, Alex
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Maarten van der Velde wrote:
If you select an interace-object and then switch to "code-view", the corresponding object in the code is automatically selected or highlighted. If Inskcape could do a similar trick, to allow for all the weird things user could posibly want to alter... Not that exact node positioning is so weird, ofcourse...
I think it would be really cool for highlighting to descend into the "d" attribute in the xml editor. I hope someone takes you up on that idea and implements it. One problem that users will have even after this is implemented is that path data can only be represented in one unit, so there will almost always be math necessary to make exact values in the path corespond to the exact position on the screen that is desired. I would also like to see x,y spinboxes on the node toolbar. I think Johan has implemented a point input widget in his live effects branch. Perhaps we could use it for this purpose when he merges back in. Though there is still at least one issue to be resolved: handles cannot take focus.
Aaron Spike
Aaron Spike wrote:
I think it would be really cool for highlighting to descend into the "d" attribute in the xml editor. I hope someone takes you up on that idea and implements it. One problem that users will have even after this is implemented is that path data can only be represented in one unit, so there will almost always be math necessary to make exact values in the path corespond to the exact position on the screen that is desired. I would also like to see x,y spinboxes on the node toolbar. I think Johan has implemented a point input widget in his live effects branch. Perhaps we could use it for this purpose when he merges back in. Though there is still at least one issue to be resolved: handles cannot take focus.
In addition to such input/spinboxes, is there any chance these input boxes could learn some basic mathematics (like +,-,/ and * and parenthesis), which would be really great, as otherwise you always have to use a calculator to place e.g. objects equal distances left and right of say a vertical line.
Alexander Roalter wrote:
In addition to such input/spinboxes, is there any chance these input boxes could learn some basic mathematics (like +,-,/ and * and parenthesis), which would be really great, as otherwise you always have to use a calculator to place e.g. objects equal distances left and right of say a vertical line.
You're asking to move whole objects, which is quite a bit different from moving single points. I think it will take some major UI creativity to put such a feature in a toolbar. Perhaps a textual notation like you suggest. How will you distinguish between negative movement and coordinates that are already negative? There are already a number of ways to move whole objects available. The align and distribute dialog and the transformation dialog may be used together to achieve what you want. You can use the align dialog to make sure the object is positioned exactly upon the line, and then use the transformation dialog to specify the relative movement for the offset of the object.
Aaron Spike
Aaron Spike wrote:
Alexander Roalter wrote:
In addition to such input/spinboxes, is there any chance these input boxes could learn some basic mathematics (like +,-,/ and * and parenthesis), which would be really great, as otherwise you always have to use a calculator to place e.g. objects equal distances left and right of say a vertical line.
You're asking to move whole objects, which is quite a bit different from moving single points. I think it will take some major UI creativity to put such a feature in a toolbar. Perhaps a textual notation like you suggest. How will you distinguish between negative movement and coordinates that are already negative? There are already a number of ways to move whole objects available. The align and distribute dialog and the transformation dialog may be used together to achieve what you want. You can use the align dialog to make sure the object is positioned exactly upon the line, and then use the transformation dialog to specify the relative movement for the offset of the object.
w/ align dialog and transformation, sure this can be achieved (and I'm trying to use these functions to get to the results I want). Still this requires careful planning beforehand, whilst with positions I could select an object, give it the x-coordinate 10, and the other object -10-375.223 (if 375.223 is the width of the object), and both objects would be distant 10 from the vertical line at 0. But you're right. I could create an object which serves as reference and has its left border exactly at 0, and use it to help align both other objects to it, and then move them apart...
As for the input line in toolbars, I thought more of a c like syntax (as you would type in any program). There are plenty of flex/yacc defintions out there defining how such an arithmetic input line has to be implemented. They teach this in sophomore year at Computer Science. Maybe I can cram up some of my old notes...
Hi,
I can also use the grid and snap to grid functions, but I don't want to be limited to only integer numbers, sometimes I want a point to be at 0.155,10.245 (or something else),
So: is there a possibility to enter the coordinates one drags the node with the mouse (this would certainly also be cool for the handles of nodes)
Not sure about other possibilities but the coordinates of the guide lines can be entered directly so you could at least use "snap to guides" as a workaround.
HTH, Elfi
Just to join the brainstorm: maybe we could look at the autocad way of dealing with things here? AutoCad uses (used?) a DOS-like command bar on the bottom of the screen, where you could enter coordinates directly. For example, if you want do draw a line, you can just click on two different places in the screen, and the line would be created. But, you could also use this command-line instead. First clicking the line icon, then clicking this bar, then entering (for example)
5,5 [enter] 10,20 [enter] But,...
One could also input
5,5 [enter] @5,15 [enter]
Where the "@" would indicate relative coordinates compared to the previous point.
Also, AutoCad would give you the oppurtunity to enter
0,0 [enter] @20<10
Creating a line 20 millimeters long at an angle of 10 degrees.
I am not saying that we should implement it in exactly this way, but the @-way of thinking might help?
Maarten
-----Original Message----- From: inkscape-user-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net [mailto:inkscape-user-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Alexander Roalter Sent: 2. juli 2007 14:08 To: Inkscape User Community Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] A question about node positioning.
Aaron Spike wrote:
Alexander Roalter wrote:
In addition to such input/spinboxes, is there any chance these input boxes could learn some basic mathematics (like +,-,/ and * and parenthesis), which would be really great, as otherwise you always have to use a calculator to place e.g. objects equal distances left and right of say a vertical line.
You're asking to move whole objects, which is quite a bit different from moving single points. I think it will take some major UI creativity to put such a feature in a toolbar. Perhaps a textual notation like you suggest. How will you distinguish between negative movement and coordinates that are already negative? There are already a number of ways to move whole objects available. The align and distribute dialog and the transformation dialog may be used together to achieve what you want. You can use the align dialog to make sure the object is positioned exactly upon the line, and then use the transformation dialog to specify the relative movement for the offset
of the object.
w/ align dialog and transformation, sure this can be achieved (and I'm trying to use these functions to get to the results I want). Still this requires careful planning beforehand, whilst with positions I could select an object, give it the x-coordinate 10, and the other object -10-375.223 (if 375.223 is the width of the object), and both objects would be distant 10 from the vertical line at 0. But you're right. I could create an object which serves as reference and has its left border exactly at 0, and use it to help align both other objects to it, and then move them apart...
As for the input line in toolbars, I thought more of a c like syntax (as you would type in any program). There are plenty of flex/yacc defintions out there defining how such an arithmetic input line has to be implemented. They teach this in sophomore year at Computer Science. Maybe I can cram up some of my old notes...
-- cheers, Alex
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Maarten van der Velde wrote:
Just to join the brainstorm: maybe we could look at the autocad way of dealing with things here? AutoCad uses (used?) a DOS-like command bar on the bottom of the screen, where you could enter coordinates directly. For example, if you want do draw a line, you can just click on two different places in the screen, and the line would be created. But, you could also use this command-line instead. First clicking the line icon, then clicking this bar, then entering (for example)
5,5 [enter] 10,20 [enter] But,...
One could also input
5,5 [enter] @5,15 [enter]
Where the "@" would indicate relative coordinates compared to the previous point.
Also, AutoCad would give you the oppurtunity to enter
0,0 [enter] @20<10
Creating a line 20 millimeters long at an angle of 10 degrees.
I am not saying that we should implement it in exactly this way, but the @-way of thinking might help?
That is something we could write as an extension so that people could try it out and see how they like it.
Aaron Spike
That is something we could write as an extension so that people could try it out and see how they like it.
Aaron Spike
Almost all CAD software is capable of such a thing (numeric input). ArchiCAD come in my mind.
Anyway this feature are a bit CAD related, its would be really awesome to have some capabilities.
- a measure tool (I readed something about it on the wiki: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/ExtensionArchitecture python extesnion implements a tool, sadly no code yet.) - units should be treated correctly all over the package (things should be exact even if does not look good on the screen). So basically it includes fixes for viewbox, cm, mm, px units and conversion between them. If Im correct inkscape works with px units internally, so conversions would be not exact between pixel and a real unit (like inch (in) or centimeter (cm)) (its really a hard job, requires good knowledge over the inkscape, so I think a core developper is needed here) - any operation (draw a line, move a node, etc) can be input via keyboard (numerically) - the object centers should be placeable, in the middle, at the corners and at the the middle of each side to achieve more easy placements. (maybe via extensions) - trim/extend functionality (new tool) - snapping objects (I already began to write a proposal about it)
I think the best would be to categorize such needs on the wiki, and gather as many informations (with screenshots) about these, as we can.
Is there already a CAD related page on the wiki? I was only able to find some info about CAD features in the Roadmap: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Roadmap#Milestone_18_-_Inkscape_0.52...
There is a big opportunity in the CAD domain, so some basic functionality would attract many tech people.
(I can specify some use cases, and write down the functionalities what are needed to achieve those tasks, if there is some interests from the developers)
Best regards, Khiraly
I am realy curious about InkCad version 0.00001 ;-)
But, yes, in general it sounds like a bunch of good ideas, although I feel inkscape shouldn't get too CAD of even too complex. At the same time, these simple CAD posibilities are missing in -I think- all drawing programs outside the CAD world. At least, as I can see, in Illustrator, Flash, Corel,...
-----Original Message----- From: inkscape-user-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net [mailto:inkscape-user-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Khiraly Sent: 2. juli 2007 17:15 To: Inkscape User Community Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] A question about node positioning.
That is something we could write as an extension so that people could try it out and see how they like it.
Aaron Spike
Almost all CAD software is capable of such a thing (numeric input). ArchiCAD come in my mind.
Anyway this feature are a bit CAD related, its would be really awesome to have some capabilities.
- a measure tool (I readed something about it on the wiki: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/ExtensionArchitecture python extesnion implements a tool, sadly no code yet.) - units should be treated correctly all over the package (things should be exact even if does not look good on the screen). So basically it includes fixes for viewbox, cm, mm, px units and conversion between them. If Im correct inkscape works with px units internally, so conversions would be not exact between pixel and a real unit (like inch (in) or centimeter (cm)) (its really a hard job, requires good knowledge over the inkscape, so I think a core developper is needed here) - any operation (draw a line, move a node, etc) can be input via keyboard (numerically) - the object centers should be placeable, in the middle, at the corners and at the the middle of each side to achieve more easy placements. (maybe via extensions) - trim/extend functionality (new tool) - snapping objects (I already began to write a proposal about it)
I think the best would be to categorize such needs on the wiki, and gather as many informations (with screenshots) about these, as we can.
Is there already a CAD related page on the wiki? I was only able to find some info about CAD features in the Roadmap: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Roadmap#Milestone_18_-_Inkscape_ 0.52_-_Tech_drawing_abilities
There is a big opportunity in the CAD domain, so some basic functionality would attract many tech people.
(I can specify some use cases, and write down the functionalities what are needed to achieve those tasks, if there is some interests from the developers)
Best regards, Khiraly
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participants (5)
-
Aaron Spike -
Alexander Roalter -
Elfi Heck -
Khiraly -
Maarten van der Velde