Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
Greetings.
A suggestion from the peanut gallery...
1) All future releases have default.svg with the display units set for px, scale= 1uu/px
2) Move the scale controls to another tab in the Document Properties panel, with language to describe function.
3) Expose the "Set page to drawing or selection" toolset (which is often overlooked by new and veteran users) on the Page tab of the Document properties panel.
Mockup of modified Document properties panel: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/zfz9yetclfy1m21/mockup1.png (also attached in case this board allows)
The above changes should alleviate most of the confusion and retain the controls for scale. Typical users needn't be concerned with scale and its complicated workings.
Thank you for your time and consideration, TD
Welcome to the list TD! (at least this is the first time I've seen you here).
1 -- I would also like to see the display unit set for px by default. But as far as I understand, Inkscape is now recognizing mm as the default unit. I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with SVG standards.
2 -- FYI, there are some current efforts to improve the whole Document Properties UX. You'd be welcome to get involved. I'm not sure if there's a formal place where discussions happen -- I just see them from time to time on the development list. Might be a wiki page?
I know there's a UX designer team....oops, I lied....could have sworn I saw one once.... I wonder why there isn't one? (other teams: https://inkscape.org/en/teams/)
(You could optionally upload your mockups to the website (there's a Mockups category). https://inkscape.org/en/gallery/=ui-mockup/?order=-edited
3 -- Yes, I like that idea too. As far as I recall from the previous discussions I've seen, there are yet more controls to be added to Doc Props. So expanding the section might not be possible. But to me, the more people who are involved, the better Inkscape will be.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Tyler Durden Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:28 PM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
Greetings.
A suggestion from the peanut gallery...
1) All future releases have default.svg with the display units set for px, scale= 1uu/px
2) Move the scale controls to another tab in the Document Properties panel, with language to describe function.
3) Expose the "Set page to drawing or selection" toolset (which is often overlooked by new and veteran users) on the Page tab of the Document properties panel.
Mockup of modified Document properties panel: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/zfz9yetclfy1m21/mockup1.png (also attached in case this board allows)
The above changes should alleviate most of the confusion and retain the controls for scale. Typical users needn't be concerned with scale and its complicated workings.
Thank you for your time and consideration, TD
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On 09/20/2017 05:22 AM, brynn wrote:
1 -- I would also like to see the display unit set for px by default. But as far as I understand, Inkscape is now recognizing mm as the default unit. I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with SVG standards.
Nothing. I think it's because the default template is A4 so it sort of made sense to use millimeters since A4 is defined as 210x297 mm²
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A typical example would be
<rect style="..." id="rect10" width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky) height="88.446426" x="0" y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:
<rect style="..." id="rect18" width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in px) height="357.14285" x="0" y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth, Alvin
-- Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page).
I'm not clear what you mean by this:
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template if they change the units?
I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the templates too. But need to understand that last statement (above).
Thanks Alvin :-)
-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A typical example would be
<rect style="..." id="rect10" width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky) height="88.446426" x="0" y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:
<rect style="..." id="rect18" width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in px) height="357.14285" x="0" y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth, Alvin
-- Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
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I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display units and scale=1.
AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined.
Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale.
Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px.
Thanks, TD
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page).
I'm not clear what you mean by this:
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template if they change the units?
I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the templates too. But need to understand that last statement (above).
Thanks Alvin :-)
-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A typical example would be
<rect style="..." id="rect10" width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky) height="88.446426" x="0" y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:
<rect style="..." id="rect18" width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in px) height="357.14285" x="0" y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth, Alvin
-- Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
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For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.
* For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted. * For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use them where necessary.
On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4 size... For me it's either digital artwork which has some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4 paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column). So, while we need some default (which might just as well be A4) I don't think we should assume users actually create A4 content and base our decision on that.
Regards, Eduard
Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display units and scale=1.
AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined.
Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale.
Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px.
Thanks, TD
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089... mailto:brynn@...3089...> wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates! However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page). I'm not clear what you mean by this: The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file. If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template if they change the units? I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the templates too. But need to understand that last statement (above). Thanks Alvin :-) -----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A typical example would be <rect style="..." id="rect10" width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky) height="88.446426" x="0" y="0.66666663" /> If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get: <rect style="..." id="rect18" width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in px) height="357.14285" x="0" y="2.519685" /> If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file default_pt.svg If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a backup, just in case.) The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file. hth, Alvin -- Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html <http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user>
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I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The reason is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its measurements in mm, and the default gives the user a real world size to compare too. There is no standard pixel size, so it does not make sense to me to have the default in pixels, or indeed to measure anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are only good for exporting bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever the manufacturer of the device decided the pixel density should be.
That's just my preference though. I will just reset the default template myself if everyone decides to go the other way.
Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators for the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for Inkscape go far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom full of students who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the next room for CNC machines. Ask them what they would prefer, and they will probably say mm makes the most sense.
If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again to some other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas 1mm will always be 1mm.
My 2p -C
On 20 Sep 2017 17:42, "Eduard Braun" <eduard.braun2@...26...> wrote:
For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.
- For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted.
- For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break
anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use them where necessary.
On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4 size... For me it's either digital artwork which has some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4 paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column). So, while we need some default (which might just as well be A4) I don't think we should assume users actually create A4 content and base our decision on that.
Regards, Eduard
Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display units and scale=1.
AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined.
Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale.
Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px.
Thanks, TD
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page).
I'm not clear what you mean by this:
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template if they change the units?
I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the templates too. But need to understand that last statement (above).
Thanks Alvin :-)
-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A typical example would be
<rect style="..." id="rect10" width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky) height="88.446426" x="0" y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:
<rect style="..." id="rect18" width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in px) height="357.14285" x="0" y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth, Alvin
-- Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
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On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:39:26 +0100 C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The reason is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its measurements in mm, and the default gives the user a real world size to compare too. There is no standard pixel size, so it does not make sense to me to have the default in pixels, or indeed to measure anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are only good for exporting bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever the manufacturer of the device decided the pixel density should be.
That's just my preference though. I will just reset the default template myself if everyone decides to go the other way.
Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators for the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for Inkscape go far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom full of students who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the next room for CNC machines. Ask them what they would prefer, and they will probably say mm makes the most sense.
If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again to some other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas 1mm will always be 1mm.
My 2p -C
Absolutely agree with this.
I know dozens of people who use Inkscape for design of material to be printed (almost always on A4). Personally, I've used it for everything from PCB layouts to kitchen design. I recently completed three that will be used as posters at a musicians show. I know just one person who uses it for web art.
Am 21.09.2017 um 09:39 schrieb C R:
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The reason is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its measurements in mm, and the default gives the user a real world size to compare too. There is no standard pixel size, so it does not make sense to me to have the default in pixels, or indeed to measure anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are only good for exporting bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever the manufacturer of the device decided the pixel density should be.
Hehe, we're back to the question "what is one pixel" and as far as Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px is 1/96 inch, so it is a real world size and this pixel size in fact *is* the standard pixel size according to CSS2. Y'all should really read Mc's posts on units. ;-).
I'm not sure if your comment on manufacturers is based on actual experience (maybe you could elaborate on that), but personally I'd feeld a lot safer to use a px-based (unscaled) SVG as a base for production than to rely on some SVG with millimeters as user units that Inkscape currently implements via a viewBox scaling of the whole SVG (which broke a lot of our export extensions and might just as well confuse import filters in other software).
Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators for the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for Inkscape go far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom full of students who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the next room for CNC machines. Ask them what they would prefer, and they will probably say mm makes the most sense.
I don't disagree that a mm is a useful unit for many applications (I think you misunderstood me here). I'm fine with keeping the default template being A4 (with mm measurements) and set all lengths in mm by default. What I would change is the unit length we use in the SVG - here I think we should stick with px by default (remember it can always be changed by the user if they have special needs!) as it has the least unwanted side-effects and works very well for many use cases and well for most others. I think that can't be said for the current solution (which I feel works well for some cases and badly for many others).
If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again to some other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas 1mm will always be 1mm.
Well, then we rescale again... Now that we put in viewBoxes by default it's not a big deal. In the worst case we end up with what we now produce by default (scaled SVG).
My 2p -C
On 20 Sep 2017 17:42, "Eduard Braun" <eduard.braun2@...26... mailto:eduard.braun2@...26...> wrote:
For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template. * For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted. * For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use them where necessary. On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4 size... For me it's either digital artwork which has some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4 paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column). So, while we need some default (which might just as well be A4) I don't think we should assume users actually create A4 content and base our decision on that. Regards, Eduard Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display units and scale=1. AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined. Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale. Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px. Thanks, TD On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089... <mailto:brynn@...3089...>> wrote: Oh, I didn't know about these templates! However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page). I'm not clear what you mean by this: The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file. If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template if they change the units? I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the templates too. But need to understand that last statement (above). Thanks Alvin :-) -----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A typical example would be <rect style="..." id="rect10" width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky) height="88.446426" x="0" y="0.66666663" /> If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get: <rect style="..." id="rect18" width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in px) height="357.14285" x="0" y="2.519685" /> If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file default_pt.svg If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a backup, just in case.) The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file. hth, Alvin -- Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html <http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user>
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Sorry to interrupt, I asked a question yesterday to Inkscape (about how to change a SVG file to f.e. a JPG file) and now I am getting lots of emails, which I don’t understand…..how can I get out of this mailinglist? 😊
Brigitte
Van: Eduard Braun [mailto:eduard.braun2@...26...] Verzonden: donderdag 21 september 2017 11:14 Aan: C R <cajhne@...155...>; Inkscape User Community <inkscape-user@...83...ourceforge.net> CC: inkscape-devel inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Onderwerp: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
Am 21.09.2017 um 09:39 schrieb C R:
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The reason is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its measurements in mm, and the default gives the user a real world size to compare too. There is no standard pixel size, so it does not make sense to me to have the default in pixels, or indeed to measure anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are only good for exporting bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever the manufacturer of the device decided the pixel density should be.
Hehe, we're back to the question "what is one pixel" and as far as Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px is 1/96 inch, so it is a real world size and this pixel size in fact *is* the standard pixel size according to CSS2. Y'all should really read Mc's posts on units. ;-).
I'm not sure if your comment on manufacturers is based on actual experience (maybe you could elaborate on that), but personally I'd feeld a lot safer to use a px-based (unscaled) SVG as a base for production than to rely on some SVG with millimeters as user units that Inkscape currently implements via a viewBox scaling of the whole SVG (which broke a lot of our export extensions and might just as well confuse import filters in other software).
Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators for the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for Inkscape go far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom full of students who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the next room for CNC machines. Ask them what they would prefer, and they will probably say mm makes the most sense.
I don't disagree that a mm is a useful unit for many applications (I think you misunderstood me here). I'm fine with keeping the default template being A4 (with mm measurements) and set all lengths in mm by default. What I would change is the unit length we use in the SVG - here I think we should stick with px by default (remember it can always be changed by the user if they have special needs!) as it has the least unwanted side-effects and works very well for many use cases and well for most others. I think that can't be said for the current solution (which I feel works well for some cases and badly for many others).
If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again to some other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas 1mm will always be 1mm.
Well, then we rescale again... Now that we put in viewBoxes by default it's not a big deal. In the worst case we end up with what we now produce by default (scaled SVG).
My 2p
-C
On 20 Sep 2017 17:42, "Eduard Braun" <eduard.braun2@...26... mailto:eduard.braun2@...26... > wrote:
For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.
* For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted. * For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use them where necessary.
On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4 size... For me it's either digital artwork which has some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4 paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column). So, while we need some default (which might just as well be A4) I don't think we should assume users actually create A4 content and base our decision on that.
Regards, Eduard
Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display units and scale=1.
AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined.
Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale.
Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px.
Thanks,
TD
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089... mailto:brynn@...3036...089... > wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page).
I'm not clear what you mean by this:
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template if they change the units?
I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the templates too. But need to understand that last statement (above).
Thanks Alvin :-)
-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:inkscape-user@...2680...orge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A typical example would be
<rect style="..." id="rect10" width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky) height="88.446426" x="0" y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:
<rect style="..." id="rect18" width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in px) height="357.14285" x="0" y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth, Alvin
-- Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
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Hi Brigitte,
you can unsubscribe here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/inkscape/lists/inkscape-user/unsubscribe
Maren
Am 21.09.2017 um 13:46 schrieb Brigitte:
Sorry to interrupt, I asked a question yesterday to Inkscape (about how to change a SVG file to f.e. a JPG file) and now I am getting lots of emails, which I don’t understand…..how can I get out of this mailinglist? 😊
Brigitte
*Van:*Eduard Braun [mailto:eduard.braun2@...26...] *Verzonden:* donderdag 21 september 2017 11:14 *Aan:* C R <cajhne@...155...>; Inkscape User Community inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net *CC:* inkscape-devel inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net *Onderwerp:* Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
Am 21.09.2017 um 09:39 schrieb C R:
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The reason is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its measurements in mm, and the default gives the user a real world size to compare too. There is no standard pixel size, so it does not make sense to me to have the default in pixels, or indeed to measure anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are only good for exporting bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever the manufacturer of the device decided the pixel density should be.Hehe, we're back to the question "what is one pixel" and as far as Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px is 1/96 inch, so it is a real world size and this pixel size in fact *is* the standard pixel size according to CSS2. Y'all should really read Mc's posts on units. ;-).
I'm not sure if your comment on manufacturers is based on actual experience (maybe you could elaborate on that), but personally I'd feeld a lot safer to use a px-based (unscaled) SVG as a base for production than to rely on some SVG with millimeters as user units that Inkscape currently implements via a viewBox scaling of the whole SVG (which broke a lot of our export extensions and might just as well confuse import filters in other software).
Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators for the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for Inkscape go far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom full of students who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the next room for CNC machines. Ask them what they would prefer, and they will probably say mm makes the most sense.I don't disagree that a mm is a useful unit for many applications (I think you misunderstood me here). I'm fine with keeping the default template being A4 (with mm measurements) and set all lengths in mm by default. What I would change is the unit length we use in the SVG - here I think we should stick with px by default (remember it can always be changed by the user if they have special needs!) as it has the least unwanted side-effects and works very well for many use cases and well for most others. I think that can't be said for the current solution (which I feel works well for some cases and badly for many others).
If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again to some other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas 1mm will always be 1mm.Well, then we rescale again... Now that we put in viewBoxes by default it's not a big deal. In the worst case we end up with what we now produce by default (scaled SVG).
My 2p -C On 20 Sep 2017 17:42, "Eduard Braun" <eduard.braun2@...26... <mailto:eduard.braun2@...26...>> wrote: For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template. * For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted. * For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use them where necessary. On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4 size... For me it's either digital artwork which has some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4 paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column). So, while we need some default (which might just as well be A4) I don't think we should assume users actually create A4 content and base our decision on that. Regards, Eduard Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden: I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display units and scale=1. AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined. Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale. Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px. Thanks, TD On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089... <mailto:brynn@...3089...>> wrote: Oh, I didn't know about these templates! However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page). I'm not clear what you mean by this: The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file. If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template if they change the units? I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the templates too. But need to understand that last statement (above). Thanks Alvin :-) -----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A typical example would be <rect style="..." id="rect10" width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky) height="88.446426" x="0" y="0.66666663" /> If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get: <rect style="..." id="rect18" width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in px) height="357.14285" x="0" y="2.519685" /> If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file default_pt.svg If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a backup, just in case.) The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after Inkscape has opened the startup file. hth, Alvin -- Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
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As it just came to me: What if we implemented a selection when the user creates a new document so they can actually choose what fits their needs best? (Possibly with a checkbox "remember as default")
Pop up a window and ask "What content do you want to create?" Two options: - "digital art (pixel based)" - "content for print (mm based)" (I imagine a big button for each with one showing a computer display / smartphone and the other showing a piece of paper).
Option one would create a pixel based document with a useful size (e.g. 800 x 600 px²). Option two would create a scaled document (e.g. A4) with mm units (i.e. the current default template)
Maybe we could even add a dropdown to the latter where the user can select (mm, meter, inch, ... or even px)-based so most bases should be covered. (An inch-based default template could even further be specialized to be letter-sized)
I think that might solve a lot of confusion and frustration around the whole "default" template as one default might just not be enough...
Thoughts? ;-)
Best Regards, Eduard
As it just came to me: What if we implemented a selection when the user creates a new document so they can actually choose what fits their needs best? (Possibly with a checkbox "remember as default")
The user can already choose a document that best fits their needs. File > New from Template
+1 for the "remember as default" option though.
Another way to look at it: A4 has a definite size, and it's one people are familiar with. But what should the default canvas size in pixels be? 1024x768? And when people with virtually any new computer come to the forums because thair machine is sporting a full HD screen, or even a 4K monitor... "my graphics are way too small, why is the default SO SMALL!" ;)
Anyway. When people print their work off of a desktop printer, it would be lovely if it were of reasonable size compared to the canvas.
Getting close to 50p, but there you have it. :) -C
On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:35 AM, C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:
As it just came to me: What if we implemented a selection when the user creates a new document so they can actually choose what fits their needs best? (Possibly with a checkbox "remember as default")
The user can already choose a document that best fits their needs. File > New from Template
+1 for the "remember as default" option though.
Hello,
I noticed that in the new Inkscape version 0.92 the line width is not consistent with exported image. Normally we have to introduce abnormally much wider line in the original .svg file so that we can obtain reasonable width in the exported .png file. Otherwise, the line in the exported .png file is too thine to be viable. However, this problem is not there in the old 0.48 version. I have attached two figures for this issue. 1.jpg is the screenshot from .SVG file and 2.jpg is that of the exported .png file.
I am just wondering how can we solve this problem?
thanks a lot.
Albert
Hello,
I noticed that in the new Inkscape version 0.92 the line width is not consistent with exported image. Normally we have to introduce abnormally much wider line in the original .svg file so that we can obtain reasonable width in the exported .png file. Otherwise, the line in the exported .png file is too thine to be viable. However, this problem is not there in the old 0.48 version.
I am just wondering how can we solve this problem?
thanks a lot.
Albert
@Albert - I would suggest you file a bug report at: https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/ and attach the original svg and png files.
thanks, Alvin
-- Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
Oh, well if that's the only reason, I would suggest going back to px for the native user units! It looks to this non-tech-oriented user like using mm for the native units is making these things much more complicated (not to mention confusing) than they really need to be.
Is there any reason why I can't make a feature request in LP, to revert to px? Like is there some other reason for the change, or we're already planning to revert, or ??? I know it might or might not happen. But really, just to make the default doc match one single template -- this really is imposing a great deal of confusion for many users!
Thanks again for taking the time to explain all this!
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Marc Jeanmougin Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 2:56 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
On 09/20/2017 05:22 AM, brynn wrote:
1 -- I would also like to see the display unit set for px by default. But as far as I understand, Inkscape is now recognizing mm as the default unit. I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with SVG standards.
Nothing. I think it's because the default template is A4 so it sort of made sense to use millimeters since A4 is defined as 210x297 mm²
participants (10)
-
Albert -
alvinpenner -
Brigitte -
brynn -
C R -
Eduard Braun -
Marc Jeanmougin -
Maren Hachmann -
Tyler Durden -
Will Godfrey