3:28 a.m.
Greetings.
A suggestion from the peanut gallery...
1) All future releases have default.svg with the display units set for px,
scale= 1uu/px
2) Move the scale controls to another tab in the Document Properties panel,
with language to describe function.
3) Expose the "Set page to drawing or selection" toolset (which is often
overlooked by new and veteran users) on the Page tab of the Document
properties panel.
Mockup of modified Document properties panel:
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/zfz9yetclfy1m21/mockup1.png
(also attached in case this board allows)
The above changes should alleviate most of the confusion and retain the
controls for scale. Typical users needn't be concerned with scale and its
complicated workings.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
TD
5:22 a.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
Welcome to the list TD! (at least this is the first time I've seen you here).
1 -- I would also like to see the display unit set for px by default. But as
far as I understand, Inkscape is now recognizing mm as the default unit. I'm
not sure why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with SVG
standards.
2 -- FYI, there are some current efforts to improve the whole Document
Properties UX. You'd be welcome to get involved. I'm not sure if there's a
formal place where discussions happen -- I just see them from time to time on
the development list. Might be a wiki page?
I know there's a UX designer team....oops, I lied....could have sworn I saw one
once.... I wonder why there isn't one? (other teams:
https://inkscape.org/en/teams/)
(You could optionally upload your mockups to the website (there's a Mockups
category). https://inkscape.org/en/gallery/=ui-mockup/?order=-edited
3 -- Yes, I like that idea too. As far as I recall from the previous
discussions I've seen, there are yet more controls to be added to Doc Props. So
expanding the section might not be possible. But to me, the more people who are
involved, the better Inkscape will be.
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Durden
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:28 PM
To: inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
Greetings.
A suggestion from the peanut gallery...
1) All future releases have default.svg with the display units set for px,
scale= 1uu/px
2) Move the scale controls to another tab in the Document Properties panel, with
language to describe function.
3) Expose the "Set page to drawing or selection" toolset (which is often
overlooked by new and veteran users) on the Page tab of the Document properties
panel.
Mockup of modified Document properties panel:
https://dl.dropbox.com/s/zfz9yetclfy1m21/mockup1.png
(also attached in case this board allows)
The above changes should alleviate most of the confusion and retain the controls
for scale. Typical users needn't be concerned with scale and its complicated
workings.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
TD
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10:56 a.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
On 09/20/2017 05:22 AM, brynn wrote:
1 -- I would also like to see the display unit set for px by
default.
But as far as I understand, Inkscape is now recognizing mm as the
default unit. I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had
something to do with SVG standards.
Nothing. I think it's because the default template is A4 so it sort of
made sense to use millimeters since A4 is defined as 210x297 mm²
--
Mc
2:29 p.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you
prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the
default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm
this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then
using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A
typical example would be
<rect
style="..."
id="rect10"
width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
height="88.446426"
x="0"
y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case
if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:
<rect
style="..."
id="rect18"
width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in
px)
height="357.14285"
x="0"
y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file
default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like
default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a
backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth,
Alvin
--
Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
3:47 p.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather
than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless
you happen to want an A4 page).
I'm not clear what you mean by this:
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units
after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it
correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have to
save a new template if they change the units?
I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the
templates too. But need to understand that last statement (above).
Thanks Alvin :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: alvinpenner
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
To: inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you
prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the
default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm
this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then
using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A
typical example would be
<rect
style="..."
id="rect10"
width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
height="88.446426"
x="0"
y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case
if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:
<rect
style="..."
id="rect18"
width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in
px)
height="357.14285"
x="0"
y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file
default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like
default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a
backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth,
Alvin
--
Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
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4 p.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display
units and scale=1.
AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults.
Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the
non-technically inclined.
Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their
preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale.
Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px.
Thanks,
TD
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface,
rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page
size (unless you happen to want an A4 page).
I'm not clear what you mean by this:
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
>
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it
correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have
to save a new template if they change the units?
I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info
about the templates too. But need to understand that last statement
(above).
Thanks Alvin :-)
-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
To: inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you
prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the
default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can
confirm
this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then
using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A
typical example would be
<rect
style="..."
id="rect10"
width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
height="88.446426"
x="0"
y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this
case
if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:
<rect
style="..."
id="rect18"
width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in
px)
height="357.14285"
x="0"
y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file
default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like
default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a
backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth,
Alvin
--
Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
------------------------------------------------------------
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6:42 p.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.
* For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted.
* For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break
anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the
viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to make a line 1or 2 px
wide (which are useful widths for me in everyday use) instead of
fiddling with fractional millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can
also still use them where necessary.
On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly
useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4
size... For me it's either digital artwork which has some even pixel
size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4 paper and therefore
need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column). So,
while we need some default (which might just as well be A4) I don't
think we should assume users actually create A4 content and base our
decision on that.
Regards,
Eduard
Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as
display units and scale=1.
AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current
defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units
and scale to the non-technically inclined.
Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their
preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale.
Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px.
Thanks,
TD
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089...
<mailto:brynn@...3089...>> wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the
interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the
units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page).
I'm not clear what you mean by this:
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document
units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to
do it correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the
user would have to save a new template if they change the units?
I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this
info about the templates too. But need to understand that last
statement (above).
Thanks Alvin :-)
-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
To: inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units
that you
prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template
file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which
is the
default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You
can confirm
this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page
and then
using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed
in mm. A
typical example would be
<rect
style="..."
id="rect10"
width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
height="88.446426"
x="0"
y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the
template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In
this case
if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you
will get:
<rect
style="..."
id="rect18"
width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm
expressed in
px)
height="357.14285"
x="0"
y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file
default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a
file like
default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first
making a
backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units
after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth,
Alvin
--
Sent from:
http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
<http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html>
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9:39 a.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The reason
is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its measurements in mm,
and the default gives the user a real world size to compare too. There is
no standard pixel size, so it does not make sense to me to have the default
in pixels, or indeed to measure anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are
only good for exporting bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever
the manufacturer of the device decided the pixel density should be.
That's just my preference though. I will just reset the default template
myself if everyone decides to go the other way.
Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators for
the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for Inkscape go
far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom full of students
who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the next room for CNC machines.
Ask them what they would prefer, and they will probably say mm makes the
most sense.
If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus
conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again to some
other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas 1mm will always
be 1mm.
My 2p
-C
On 20 Sep 2017 17:42, "Eduard Braun" <eduard.braun2@...26...> wrote:
For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.
- For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted.
- For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break
anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the viewbox
scaling. Also it feels more natural to make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are
useful widths for me in everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional
millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use them where
necessary.
On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly
useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4
size... For me it's either digital artwork which has some even pixel size
or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4 paper and therefore need to be
smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column). So, while we need some
default (which might just as well be A4) I don't think we should assume
users actually create A4 content and base our decision on that.
Regards,
Eduard
Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display
units and scale=1.
AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current
defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and
scale to the non-technically inclined.
Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their
preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale.
Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px.
Thanks,
TD
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:
> Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
>
> However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface,
> rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page
> size (unless you happen to want an A4 page).
>
> I'm not clear what you mean by this:
>
> The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
>>
> Inkscape has opened the startup file.
>
> If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it
> correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have
> to save a new template if they change the units?
>
> I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info
> about the templates too. But need to understand that last statement
> (above).
>
> Thanks Alvin :-)
>
> -----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
> To: inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
>
> It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you
> prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file
> C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the
> default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can
> confirm
> this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then
> using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A
> typical example would be
>
> <rect
> style="..."
> id="rect10"
> width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
> height="88.446426"
> x="0"
> y="0.66666663" />
>
> If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file
> C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this
> case
> if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will
> get:
>
> <rect
> style="..."
> id="rect18"
> width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in
> px)
> height="357.14285"
> x="0"
> y="2.519685" />
>
> If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file
> default_pt.svg
>
> If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like
> default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a
> backup, just in case.)
>
> The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
> Inkscape has opened the startup file.
>
> hth,
> Alvin
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> Inkscape-user mailing list
> Inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> Inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
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9:50 a.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:39:26 +0100
C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The
reason
is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its measurements in mm,
and the default gives the user a real world size to compare too. There is
no standard pixel size, so it does not make sense to me to have the default
in pixels, or indeed to measure anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are
only good for exporting bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever
the manufacturer of the device decided the pixel density should be.
That's just my preference though. I will just reset the default template
myself if everyone decides to go the other way.
Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators for
the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for Inkscape go
far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom full of students
who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the next room for CNC machines.
Ask them what they would prefer, and they will probably say mm makes the
most sense.
If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus
conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again to some
other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas 1mm will always
be 1mm.
My 2p
-C
Absolutely agree with this.
I know dozens of people who use Inkscape for design of material to be printed
(almost always on A4). Personally, I've used it for everything from PCB layouts
to kitchen design. I recently completed three that will be used as posters at a
musicians show. I know just one person who uses it for web art.
--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
11:14 a.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
Am 21.09.2017 um 09:39 schrieb C R:
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The
reason is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its
measurements in mm, and the default gives the user a real world size
to compare too. There is no standard pixel size, so it does not make
sense to me to have the default in pixels, or indeed to measure
anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are only good for exporting
bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever the manufacturer of
the device decided the pixel density should be.
Hehe, we're back to the
question "what is one pixel" and as far as
Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px is 1/96 inch, so it is a real
world size and this pixel size in fact *is* the standard pixel size
according to CSS2. Y'all should really read Mc's posts on units. ;-).
I'm not sure if your comment on manufacturers is based on actual
experience (maybe you could elaborate on that), but personally I'd feeld
a lot safer to use a px-based (unscaled) SVG as a base for production
than to rely on some SVG with millimeters as user units that Inkscape
currently implements via a viewBox scaling of the whole SVG (which broke
a lot of our export extensions and might just as well confuse import
filters in other software).
Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators
for the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for
Inkscape go far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom
full of students who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the next
room for CNC machines. Ask them what they would prefer, and they will
probably say mm makes the most sense.
I don't disagree that a mm is a useful
unit for many applications (I
think you misunderstood me here). I'm fine with keeping the default
template being A4 (with mm measurements) and set all lengths in mm by
default. What I would change is the unit length we use in the SVG - here
I think we should stick with px by default (remember it can always be
changed by the user if they have special needs!) as it has the least
unwanted side-effects and works very well for many use cases and well
for most others. I think that can't be said for the current solution
(which I feel works well for some cases and badly for many others).
If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus
conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again to
some other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas 1mm
will always be 1mm.
Well, then we rescale again... Now that we put in viewBoxes by
default
it's not a big deal. In the worst case we end up with what we now
produce by default (scaled SVG).
My 2p
-C
On 20 Sep 2017 17:42, "Eduard Braun" <eduard.braun2@...26...
<mailto:eduard.braun2@...26...>> wrote:
For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.
* For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted.
* For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not
break anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities
due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to make
a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in
everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional millimeters.
If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use them where
necessary.
On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is
overly useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would
need an A4 size... For me it's either digital artwork which has
some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4
paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to
fill one column). So, while we need some default (which might just
as well be A4) I don't think we should assume users actually
create A4 content and base our decision on that.
Regards,
Eduard
Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
> I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as
> display units and scale=1.
>
> AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current
> defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain
> units and scale to the non-technically inclined.
>
> Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to
> their preferred display units. No need for typical users to
> change scale.
>
> Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px.
>
>
> Thanks,
> TD
>
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089...
> <mailto:brynn@...3089...>> wrote:
>
> Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
>
> However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the
> interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the
> units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4
> page).
>
> I'm not clear what you mean by this:
>
> The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the
> document units after
>
> Inkscape has opened the startup file.
>
> If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how
> to do it correctly) can't they be changed? Or do you mean
> that the user would have to save a new template if they
> change the units?
>
> I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include
> this info about the templates too. But need to understand
> that last statement (above).
>
> Thanks Alvin :-)
>
> -----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
> To: inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> <mailto:inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
>
> It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document
> units that you
> prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup
> template file
> C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg
> (which is the
> default), then you will find that the document units are mm.
> You can confirm
> this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full
> page and then
> using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been
> expressed in mm. A
> typical example would be
>
> <rect
> style="..."
> id="rect10"
> width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
> height="88.446426"
> x="0"
> y="0.66666663" />
>
> If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the
> template file
> C:\Program Files
> (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case
> if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page
> you will get:
>
> <rect
> style="..."
> id="rect18"
> width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm
> expressed in
> px)
> height="357.14285"
> x="0"
> y="2.519685" />
>
> If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the
> template file
> default_pt.svg
>
> If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then
> copy a file like
> default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after
> first making a
> backup, just in case.)
>
> The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document
> units after
> Inkscape has opened the startup file.
>
> hth,
> Alvin
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from:
> http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
> <http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html>
>
>
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>
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>
>
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1:46 p.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
Sorry to interrupt, I asked a question yesterday to Inkscape (about how to change a SVG
file to f.e. a JPG file) and now I am getting lots of emails, which I don’t
understand…..how can I get out of this mailinglist? 😊
Brigitte
Van: Eduard Braun [mailto:eduard.braun2@...26...]
Verzonden: donderdag 21 september 2017 11:14
Aan: C R <cajhne@...155...>; Inkscape User Community
<inkscape-user@...83...ourceforge.net>
CC: inkscape-devel <inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net>
Onderwerp: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
Am 21.09.2017 um 09:39 schrieb C R:
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The reason is that I
design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its measurements in mm, and the default gives
the user a real world size to compare too. There is no standard pixel size, so it does not
make sense to me to have the default in pixels, or indeed to measure anything in pixels at
all. Pixel widths are only good for exporting bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of
whatever the manufacturer of the device decided the pixel density should be.
Hehe, we're back to the question "what is one pixel" and as far as Inkscape
(since 0.92) is concerned 1 px is 1/96 inch, so it is a real world size and this pixel
size in fact *is* the standard pixel size according to CSS2. Y'all should really read
Mc's posts on units. ;-).
I'm not sure if your comment on manufacturers is based on actual experience (maybe you
could elaborate on that), but personally I'd feeld a lot safer to use a px-based
(unscaled) SVG as a base for production than to rely on some SVG with millimeters as user
units that Inkscape currently implements via a viewBox scaling of the whole SVG (which
broke a lot of our export extensions and might just as well confuse import filters in
other software).
Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators for the last release.
It's clear to me from those that the uses for Inkscape go far beyond just SVG for web.
There was a whole classroom full of students who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in
the next room for CNC machines. Ask them what they would prefer, and they will probably
say mm makes the most sense.
I don't disagree that a mm is a useful unit for many applications (I think you
misunderstood me here). I'm fine with keeping the default template being A4 (with mm
measurements) and set all lengths in mm by default. What I would change is the unit length
we use in the SVG - here I think we should stick with px by default (remember it can
always be changed by the user if they have special needs!) as it has the least unwanted
side-effects and works very well for many use cases and well for most others. I think that
can't be said for the current solution (which I feel works well for some cases and
badly for many others).
If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus conversion to mm and
other physical measurements) will change again to some other completely arbitrary
increment in the future. Whereas 1mm will always be 1mm.
Well, then we rescale again... Now that we put in viewBoxes by default it's not a big
deal. In the worst case we end up with what we now produce by default (scaled SVG).
My 2p
-C
On 20 Sep 2017 17:42, "Eduard Braun" <eduard.braun2@...26...
<mailto:eduard.braun2@...26...> > wrote:
For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.
* For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted.
* For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break anything
and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels
more natural to make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in everyday use)
instead of fiddling with fractional millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still
use them where necessary.
On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly useful. I've
yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4 size... For me it's either
digital artwork which has some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put
on A4 paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column).
So, while we need some default (which might just as well be A4) I don't think we
should assume users actually create A4 content and base our decision on that.
Regards,
Eduard
Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display units and
scale=1.
AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults. Everything
works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined.
Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their preferred display
units. No need for typical users to change scale.
Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px.
Thanks,
TD
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089...
<mailto:brynn@...3036...089...> > wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than
use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to
want an A4 page).
I'm not clear what you mean by this:
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly)
can't they be changed? Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template
if they change the units?
I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the
templates too. But need to understand that last statement (above).
Thanks Alvin :-)
-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
To: inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:inkscape-user@...2680...orge.net>
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you
prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the
default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm
this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then
using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A
typical example would be
<rect
style="..."
id="rect10"
width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
height="88.446426"
x="0"
y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case
if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:
<rect
style="..."
id="rect18"
width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in
px)
height="357.14285"
x="0"
y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file
default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like
default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a
backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth,
Alvin
--
Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
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2:11 p.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
Hi Brigitte,
you can unsubscribe here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/inkscape/lists/inkscape-user/unsubscribe
Maren
Am 21.09.2017 um 13:46 schrieb Brigitte:
Sorry to interrupt, I asked a question yesterday to Inkscape (about
how
to change a SVG file to f.e. a JPG file) and now I am getting lots of
emails, which I don’t understand…..how can I get out of this mailinglist? 😊
Brigitte
*Van:*Eduard Braun [mailto:eduard.braun2@...26...]
*Verzonden:* donderdag 21 september 2017 11:14
*Aan:* C R <cajhne@...155...>; Inkscape User Community
<inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net>
*CC:* inkscape-devel <inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net>
*Onderwerp:* Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
Am 21.09.2017 um 09:39 schrieb C R:
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The
reason is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its
measurements in mm, and the default gives the user a real world size
to compare too. There is no standard pixel size, so it does not make
sense to me to have the default in pixels, or indeed to measure
anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are only good for exporting
bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever the manufacturer
of the device decided the pixel density should be.
Hehe, we're back to the question "what is one pixel" and as far as
Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px is 1/96 inch, so it is a real
world size and this pixel size in fact *is* the standard pixel size
according to CSS2. Y'all should really read Mc's posts on units. ;-).
I'm not sure if your comment on manufacturers is based on actual
experience (maybe you could elaborate on that), but personally I'd feeld
a lot safer to use a px-based (unscaled) SVG as a base for production
than to rely on some SVG with millimeters as user units that Inkscape
currently implements via a viewBox scaling of the whole SVG (which broke
a lot of our export extensions and might just as well confuse import
filters in other software).
Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators
for the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for
Inkscape go far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom
full of students who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the
next room for CNC machines. Ask them what they would prefer, and
they will probably say mm makes the most sense.
I don't disagree that a mm is a useful unit for many applications (I
think you misunderstood me here). I'm fine with keeping the default
template being A4 (with mm measurements) and set all lengths in mm by
default. What I would change is the unit length we use in the SVG - here
I think we should stick with px by default (remember it can always be
changed by the user if they have special needs!) as it has the least
unwanted side-effects and works very well for many use cases and well
for most others. I think that can't be said for the current solution
(which I feel works well for some cases and badly for many others).
If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus
conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again
to some other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas
1mm will always be 1mm.
Well, then we rescale again... Now that we put in viewBoxes by default
it's not a big deal. In the worst case we end up with what we now
produce by default (scaled SVG).
My 2p
-C
On 20 Sep 2017 17:42, "Eduard Braun" <eduard.braun2@...26...
<mailto:eduard.braun2@...26...>> wrote:
For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.
* For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted.
* For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not
break anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities
due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to
make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in
everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional
millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use
them where necessary.
On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is
overly useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would
need an A4 size... For me it's either digital artwork which has
some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4
paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide
to fill one column). So, while we need some default (which might
just as well be A4) I don't think we should assume users
actually create A4 content and base our decision on that.
Regards,
Eduard
Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use
px as display units and scale=1.
AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other
current defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying
to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined.
Even the newest users can understand how to set the document
to their preferred display units. No need for typical users
to change scale.
Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg
units = px.
Thanks,
TD
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <brynn@...3089...
<mailto:brynn@...3089...>> wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!
However, I think it's better for users to know how to
use the interface, rather than use a template which only
sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you
happen to want an A4 page).
I'm not clear what you mean by this:
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the
document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
If you know how to change the units (as I've just
learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed?
Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new
template if they change the units?
I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll
include this info about the templates too. But need to
understand that last statement (above).
Thanks Alvin :-)
-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
To: inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and
Display units
It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the
document units that you
prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the
startup template file
C:\Program Files
(x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the
default), then you will find that the document units are
mm. You can confirm
this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the
full page and then
using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been
expressed in mm. A
typical example would be
<rect
style="..."
id="rect10"
width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
height="88.446426"
x="0"
y="0.66666663" />
If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use
the template file
C:\Program Files
(x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case
if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4
page you will get:
<rect
style="..."
id="rect18"
width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is
210mm expressed in
px)
height="357.14285"
x="0"
y="2.519685" />
If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the
template file
default_pt.svg
If you want to permanently modify the startup units,
then copy a file like
default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after
first making a
backup, just in case.)
The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the
document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.
hth,
Alvin
--
Sent from:
http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
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11:26 a.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
As it just came to me:
What if we implemented a selection when the user creates a new document
so they can actually choose what fits their needs best? (Possibly with a
checkbox "remember as default")
Pop up a window and ask "What content do you want to create?"
Two options:
- "digital art (pixel based)"
- "content for print (mm based)"
(I imagine a big button for each with one showing a computer display /
smartphone and the other showing a piece of paper).
Option one would create a pixel based document with a useful size (e.g.
800 x 600 px²).
Option two would create a scaled document (e.g. A4) with mm units (i.e.
the current default template)
Maybe we could even add a dropdown to the latter where the user can
select (mm, meter, inch, ... or even px)-based so most bases should be
covered. (An inch-based default template could even further be
specialized to be letter-sized)
I think that might solve a lot of confusion and frustration around the
whole "default" template as one default might just not be enough...
Thoughts? ;-)
Best Regards,
Eduard
11:35 a.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
As it just came to me:
What if we implemented a selection when the user creates a new document so
they can actually choose what fits their needs best? (Possibly with a
checkbox "remember as default")
The user can already choose a document that best fits their needs.
File > New from Template
+1 for the "remember as default" option though.
12:24 p.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
Another way to look at it: A4 has a definite size, and it's one people
are familiar with.
But what should the default canvas size in pixels be? 1024x768? And
when people with virtually any new computer come to the forums because
thair machine is sporting a full HD screen, or even a 4K monitor...
"my graphics are way too small, why is the default SO SMALL!" ;)
Anyway. When people print their work off of a desktop printer, it
would be lovely if it were of reasonable size compared to the canvas.
Getting close to 50p, but there you have it. :)
-C
On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:35 AM, C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:
> As it just came to me:
> What if we implemented a selection when the user creates a new document so
> they can actually choose what fits their needs best? (Possibly with a
> checkbox "remember as default")
The user can already choose a document that best fits their needs.
File > New from Template
+1 for the "remember as default" option though.
8:39 a.m.
New subject: SVG line is not consistent with exported image
Hello,
I noticed that in the new Inkscape version 0.92 the line width is not
consistent with exported image. Normally we have to introduce abnormally
much wider line in the original .svg file so that we can obtain
reasonable width in the exported .png file. Otherwise, the line in the
exported .png file is too thine to be viable. However, this problem is
not there in the old 0.48 version. I have attached two figures for this
issue. 1.jpg is the screenshot from .SVG file and 2.jpg is that of the
exported .png file.
I am just wondering how can we solve this problem?
thanks a lot.
Albert
8:40 a.m.
New subject: SVG line is not consistent with exported image
Hello,
I noticed that in the new Inkscape version 0.92 the line width is not
consistent with exported image. Normally we have to introduce abnormally
much wider line in the original .svg file so that we can obtain
reasonable width in the exported .png file. Otherwise, the line in the
exported .png file is too thine to be viable. However, this problem is
not there in the old 0.48 version.
I am just wondering how can we solve this problem?
thanks a lot.
Albert
12:58 p.m.
New subject: SVG line is not consistent with exported image
@Albert - I would suggest you file a bug report at:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/
and attach the original svg and png files.
thanks, Alvin
--
Sent from: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/Inkscape-User-f2857977.html
3:33 p.m.
New subject: the Scale setting and Display units
Oh, well if that's the only reason, I would suggest going back to px for the
native user units! It looks to this non-tech-oriented user like using mm for
the native units is making these things much more complicated (not to mention
confusing) than they really need to be.
Is there any reason why I can't make a feature request in LP, to revert to px?
Like is there some other reason for the change, or we're already planning to
revert, or ??? I know it might or might not happen. But really, just to make
the default doc match one single template -- this really is imposing a great
deal of confusion for many users!
Thanks again for taking the time to explain all this!
brynn
-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Jeanmougin
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 2:56 AM
To: inkscape-user(a)lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units
On 09/20/2017 05:22 AM, brynn wrote:
1 -- I would also like to see the display unit set for px by
default.
But as far as I understand, Inkscape is now recognizing mm as the
default unit. I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had
something to do with SVG standards.
Nothing. I think it's because the default template is A4 so it sort of
made sense to use millimeters since A4 is defined as 210x297 mm²
--
Mc
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18 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Albert -
alvinpenner -
Brigitte -
brynn -
C R -
Eduard Braun -
Marc Jeanmougin -
Maren Hachmann -
Tyler Durden -
Will Godfrey