5:01 a.m.
Dear PLC,
Thank you to everyone who came to the budget meeting yesterday. It was
quite a busy and intense discussion, even for this high level overview
meeting. Big thanks to pono from the SFC for assisting and giving us
some solid information.
Attendees: Tav, Marc, Chris, Josh, Martin, René, Jabier, Ishaan, Pono
Meeting Chair: Martin
The video meeting is recorded here:
https://digimedia1.r2.enst.fr/playback/presentation/2.3/80b082be7c60e7a1f...
1 hour 12 minutes
We've set a budget of between $80k and $175k for 2022. We expect to
spend at least $80k and the feeling was that it's time for us to stop
growing our hoard of money and start spending it.
The project has many needs, which we currently ask volunteers to do.
But many of these tasks are things we need and shouldn't depend on
waiting for volunteers, so the basic principle was put forward that "if
the project is asking for the work to be done, then the project should
be paying for it." This was used a guideline to find items we should be
budgeting for.
Attached you will find the earmarks that we created for each section of
the budget. There are some notes:
1. The release manager stipend isn't currently needed, Marc's employer
is kindly covering this expense and it's noted here in case we need to
have this item in consideration for future budgets.
2. We have one Outreachy internship unused from last cycle, this
coming year we will likely only need at most one more. This earmark
should cover that.
3. We lack a documentation lead, or any contributor able to step up
and look after documentation. If there's anyone you can remember from
the past who'd be interested in getting involved, we've earmarked a
small budget to help with costs for that area should we need it.
Each of the items require another meeting to discuss their details
further. This is especially true of the two big ticket items for the
admin and the developer budget. Please do come to these meetings, which
will be help via video again and recorded for transparency. Dates are
attached.
Again, a big thank you to everyone. Taking our budgeting
responsibilities seriously has been a high priority for us in the
leadership committee and it's great to finally feel like we are
starting to see the wheels move.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
11:37 a.m.
On Dec 10 2021, at 2:01 pm, Martin Owens <doctormo(a)geek-2.com> wrote:
The project has many needs, which we currently ask volunteers to do.
But many of these tasks are things we need and shouldn't depend on
waiting for volunteers, so the basic principle was put forward that "if
the project is asking for the work to be done, then the project should
be paying for it." This was used a guideline to find items we should be
budgeting for.
I think this is a dangerous policy, as it actively discourages volunteering. Why would I
volunteer when I could be paid? Should I have a budget for writing this email? Is it
something I think the project needs? What you've defined there is a company, not a
community oriented project.
I think a more appropriate measure is that we should fund things that empower our members
to be effective at achieving their goals on the project. Keeping focus on Inkscape members
and helping them makes sure that we keep or focus on the most important thing, the
community that is around the project. We should break down the barriers for those folks.
1. The release manager stipend isn't currently needed, Marc's
employer
is kindly covering this expense and it's noted here in case we need to
have this item in consideration for future budgets.
Marc, do you know if your HR would give a number for the effective cost to them? Not just
your salary, but the cost of benefits, payroll taxes, vacation, etc. that they are
effectively donating. Not sure about how that works in the French public sector, but
usually US companies have an estimate there. It would be useful to know/track.
2. We have one Outreachy internship unused from last cycle, this
coming year we will likely only need at most one more. This earmark
should cover that.
If we think we are going to do two Outreachy interns a year I think it'd be better to
budget that and then record a credit from the previous year. It'll make it easier to
see year over year.
3. We lack a documentation lead, or any contributor able to step up
and look after documentation. If there's anyone you can remember from
the past who'd be interested in getting involved, we've earmarked a
small budget to help with costs for that area should we need it.
This seems weird to me. If we have no idea what we're going to do and who is going to
do it, suggesting there should be money for it seems backwards. Not against documentation
in general, but just throwing money on a spreadsheet doesn't do anything. It feels
"money lead" instead of "community lead." I would hate for someone to
join the project with the sole purpose to spend money.
Each of the items require another meeting to discuss their details
further. This is especially true of the two big ticket items for the
admin and the developer budget.
Great to see how this breaks down, the numbers here seem pretty arbitrary right now. I
think that we should have justification for our numbers. Certainly not down the penny, but
some idea of why we came up with the number that we did as part of the documentation.
There currently isn't enough information in the document to understand or comment on
the specific amounts or line items.
Also, could you attach editable versions of attachments? We're OSS, we don't
accept only compiled versions 😉 Personally, I like attaching PDFs as well because
they're easier to read on a small screen like a phone, but the source document is the
most important.
Ted
3:50 p.m.
On Dec 10 2021, at 9:26 pm, Martin Owens <doctormo(a)geek-2.com> wrote:
On Fri, 2021-12-10 at 20:37 -0600, Ted Gould wrote:
> we should have justification for our numbers.
Please see the video for full details and the follow up meeting for the
more constructed details.
LOL. That's like saying all code is self-documenting. I think the bare-minimum is
writing things down.
Ted
4:47 a.m.
LOL. That's like saying all code is self-documenting. I think the
bare-minimum is writing things down.
No, you've just been told where you can RTFM the full details (yes in this case
it's a video) and you responded with "that's beneath me". Maybe next
time you try to take an active part in the actual conversation instead of
backseat-moderating things after the fact. </rant>
What we've discussed in the meeting is not perfect and I think everyone knows that.
You're also not the only one with concerns about the (mid/longterm) effects of money
vs voluntary engagement. However, we are in a constant stalemate and want to break out of
it. We're not a bank, our donators expect us to do something with the money they give
us. We want to try something new.
To be absolutely clear: it's not the goal to turn Inkscape into a
free-for-all-come-have-some-money type of thing. The project identifies areas where we
want to push foward and where no volunteers are stepping up to do the job. If you think
we're taking on more than we should in a first step, let's discuss that. IMHO we
should be able to find consensus on at least one single thing where we try to throw a
little money at. And it should not be something easily agreeable like Outreachy but
something hard where we can gather valuable experience from, like something e.g.
documentation or development related. We’re not setting anything in stone here.
It is important that we argue about these things. It probably doesn't translate well
for what I want to express, but "arguing" is meant in a positive way, as in
"the best solution doesn't just present itself by itself, we have to work for
it". So please, be there the next time.
René
> Am 11.12.2021 um 07:50 schrieb Ted Gould <ted(a)gould.cx>:
>
> On Dec 10 2021, at 9:26 pm, Martin Owens <doctormo(a)geek-2.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2021-12-10 at 20:37 -0600, Ted Gould wrote:
> > we should have justification for our numbers.
>
> Please see the video for full details and the follow up meeting for the
> more constructed details.
>
LOL. That's like saying all code is self-documenting. I think the
bare-minimum is writing things down.
>
> Ted
>
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape Board of Directors mailing list -- inkscape-board(a)lists.inkscape.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-board-leave(a)lists.inkscape.org
2:43 a.m.
On Dec 11 2021, at 1:47 pm, René de Hesselle <dehesselle(a)icloud.com> wrote:
> LOL. That's like saying all code is self-documenting. I
think the bare-minimum is writing things down.
No, you've just been told where you can RTFM the full details (yes in this case
it's a video) and you responded with "that's beneath me".
When we eventually have a referendum on a budget all discussion about it won't matter.
Including any email or any chat log. The only thing that is relevant is the text in the
referendum itself. That needs to explain.
Maybe next time you try to take an active part in the actual
conversation instead of backseat-moderating things after the fact. </rant>
If
you're suggesting that we have a process where the only way to contribute or criticize
it is to attend a synchronous video call it is a discriminatory one. I hope that's not
what you're suggesting.
It is important that we argue about these things. It probably
doesn't translate well for what I want to express, but "arguing" is meant in
a positive way, as in "the best solution doesn't just present itself by itself,
we have to work for it". So please, be there the next time.
I agree that there
is lots of room for discussion and I'm excited about new ideas being brought forward.
I think that discussion needs to be inclusive.
Also, something doesn't need to be in the budget for us to do it. The budget is quite
simply guidance and a way to track our spending. It should be representative of what we
have reasonable plans to do. I hope that we're able to do more projects than we budget
for.
Ted
6:06 p.m.
Maybe next time you try to take an active part in the actual conversation
instead of backseat-moderating things after the fact. </rant>
If you're suggesting that we have a process where the only way to
contribute or criticize it is to attend a synchronous video call it is a
discriminatory one. I hope that's not what you're suggesting.
I don't think that's what's being suggested. Posting a video recording
of a
video meeting is analogous to posting the log of the rocket-chat meeting.
If one cannot attend for whatever reason, one can then watch the video to
hear and see the entire meeting. Moveover, you get the intended feelings,
meanings and connections in ways you don't with a text-only version. These
are certainly nice extras. Not everyone has time for potentially lengthy
email correspondence, so video meetings are a more efficient way for
conversation to take place, and it's much easier to feel out the room. No
one is suggesting that conversation should take place here exclusively,
with the caveat that if you ask for information that was already discussed
in the meeting (be it video, or text), you may be asked to reference the
source material. If someone is having trouble accessing or playing the
video, we can look into options to help that person out. Unless that's
happening somewhere, and the technological requirements are not
insurmountable, then video meetings are not discriminatory, IMHO.
-C
3:11 a.m.
Sorry to go AWOL this week, got sick and I'm now catching up.
On Dec 13 2021, at 3:06 am, C R <cajhne(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Maybe next time you try to take an active part in the actual conversation
instead of backseat-moderating things after the fact. </rant>
> If you're suggesting that we have a process where the only way to contribute or
criticize it is to attend a synchronous video call it is a discriminatory one. I hope
that's not what you're suggesting.
I don't think that's what's being suggested.
That's my only
concern, as long as it isn't the only way people can contribute. I think that video
will work for some folks. And synchronous meetings have value. But we can't assume
they're best for everyone. If we want to get a wide range of inputs and ideas we
can't leave them as the only way to contribute.
Ted
5:51 p.m.
On Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 02:37 Ted Gould <ted(a)gould.cx> wrote:
On Dec 10 2021, at 2:01 pm, Martin Owens <doctormo(a)geek-2.com>
wrote:
The project has many needs, which we currently ask volunteers to do.
But many of these tasks are things we need and shouldn't depend on
waiting for volunteers, so the basic principle was put forward that "if
the project is asking for the work to be done, then the project should
be paying for it." This was used a guideline to find items we should be
budgeting for.
I think this is a dangerous policy, as it actively discourages
volunteering. Why would I volunteer when I could be paid? Should I have a
budget for writing this email? Is it something I think the project needs?
What you've defined there is a company, not a community oriented project.
I understand this fear, but I think it doesn't give our volunteers enough
credit. The answer that jumps to my mind when asked "Why should I volunteer
when I could be paid?" is "Because it makes the Free software I use better
for myself and for everyone in the world." Not being paid for a thing would
not discourage me from doing it. The prospect of payment for the release
video was brought up during this meeting. I would certainly try to do a
video anyway, just as I've done in previous years. It's just that payment
in this case means that I can dedicate more time to it, and spend more time
getting feedback from the group in the early stages, as I've done for other
FOSS projects. Currently it's very much a "what do I have time to throw
together", rather than "What do we want to do with this next release
video".
Even reading the hypothetical "How much should I charge for writing this
email" - it would sound absurd coming from anyone in the project.
As a fun thought experiment, though: If the project decides that Ted's
email activities are essential to the functioning of Inkscape, and Ted
doesn't have time otherwise, then I see no problem with paying for that, or
even some stipend to be able to see more of Ted at the video meetings. ;)
The point is, if the project needs something, and that something doesn't
have any volunteers, or can't be done on time in a volunteer's spare time,
then the project should use donations to improve those areas in lieu of
volunteer work.
Moreover, since donated time is contingent on people's spare time in many
cases, and people lose time for things, it's prudent to have a portion of
the budget ready to fill in those areas with paid work to compensate.
These are my thoughts on it.
-C
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8 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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C R -
Martin Owens -
René de Hesselle -
Ted Gould