I want to have bitmap and vectors brushes. Like expression do with skeletal strokes.
Sounds awesome Jabier. I can't wait to see what you come up with! I'm thinking the Brushes dialogue could have tabs, one tab for vector brushes, and another for raster. In both, it would be great to have a preview for each brush to show how the resulting stroke looks.
I also saw this interesting thing: User defined curves that affect the shape of the brush for custom power-curve strokes. Some artists are using these in programs like Affinity Designer to make arrows: https://forum.affinity.serif.com/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-1105-0-5478260...
Having this as a vector brush option would be super useful I think, especially for interesting custom brushes.
-C
Cheers, Jabier.
On Wed, 2017-09-06 at 04:50 -0600, brynn wrote:
If they say that, at least we'd know what they are talking about.
That as apposed to "The stroke is crap!" - Which could be any one of a hundred non-brush related problems. :)
Well, I would not propose calling it a "stroke". Maybe "stroke profile"? ("stroke tip", "stroke nib", "stroke shape", "quill"??) Anything to avoid confusing it with raster brushes.
"Why don't you have a so and so brush, like all the other paint programs?"
We don't want wishlist items anymore? Also, would be a great place to
put custom brushes. Currently, our users have to jump through some invisible hoops to get a shape to flow like a brush stroke. This has needed a proper dialogue for a while, and this is the perfect opportunity to give it one.
That was a little bit changing the subject. My point is that Inkscape is not a paint program. They would be expecting the same thing from a vector brush that they get (or can do) with a raster brush. Inkscape is not a paint program, and I would not be happy with a bigger opportunity for confusion about that. We in the support areas already deal with the raster vs vector issue at least weekly (on average, although it tends to come in waves).
So if it's called something besides "brush" it would reduce this confusion.
The thing is, with Jabier's brush system, you may be actually be able
to do these things in the near future.
Really? It's going to be possible to convert a raster brush to a vector brush? And make it work and look the same? ("I imported my brush into Inkscape, but it doesn't work right!" "Inkscape broke my brush!")
Also, when people do compare, we can immediately point out the
advantages of Inkscape vector brushes vs. GIMP brushes - just have them zoom in. :) They'll get it right away.
"we"?? I'll let you write the FAQ item which will certainly be needed, even if it were called something different from "brushes".
You aren't seriously suggesting that we can explain the difference between raster and vector by telling users to zoom in? Even the most simplified version (of the webpage we've been needing for so long) would have 4 bullet points (although it ranges up to 10, depending who you talk to).
The thing is, they won't just compare. They won't post something like "I noticed something is different. Why?" They'll post things like the examples I've given. They will think something is broken.
Despite your reluctance, I would still encourage an effort to come up with some different name which implies a brush, but can't be confused with traditional raster brushes.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Monday, September 04, 2017 6:06 AM To: brynn Cc: Jabiertxo Arraiza Cenoz ; inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool using powerstroke?
Well, I'm just thinking of it in terms of providing support. If they are called brushes, then pretty soon, we're getting messages like "your brushes are crap, why don't you make them work like all the other brushes in the world".
If they say that, at least we'd know what they are talking about. That as apposed to "The stroke is crap!" - Which could be any one of a hundred non-brush related problems. :)
"Why don't you have a so and so brush, like all the other paint programs?"
We don't want wishlist items anymore? Also, would be a great place to put custom brushes. Currently, our users have to jump through some invisible hoops to get a shape to flow like a brush stroke. This has needed a proper dialogue for a while, and this is the perfect opportunity to give it one.
"Why can't I import the brush I made in GIMP into Inkscape?" And etc. (We actually had the latter question in a forum, a few years ago!)
The thing is, with Jabier's brush system, you may be actually be able to do these things in the near future. If we make up new names for things just to prevent comparisons and user questions, we sacrifice discover-ability, and also wishlist items that make the brush system more versatile and easier to use.
No doubt we get all sorts of questions about raster transformations from people who are new to a vector editor. This is not a good enough reason to change common terminology between the programs, it is a good opportunity to educate people on the differences between vector and raster editors.
A vector brush is still a brush, just as a raster brush is still a brush. The functionality is identical to the user, and so should the terminology.
Also, when people do compare, we can immediately point out the advantages of Inkscape vector brushes vs. GIMP brushes - just have them zoom in. :) They'll get it right away.
-C
If we call them something that more reflects the vector-ness, then we don't have that problem. I'm afraid that people will compare them to raster brushes, and they just aren't the same. They're similar, but so very different, at the same time.
In many other areas, Inkscape has created its own terminology...or used SVG terminology. Inkscape calls "nodes" what other programs call "points", as a prominent example. Inkscape calls 'paths" what other programs call "lines".
I wonder if we could look to SVG (standards) to guide the terminology...somehow?
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 1:31 AM To: brynn Cc: Jabiertxo Arraiza Cenoz ; inkscape-devel
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool using powerstroke?
Does Inkscape really strive to be a vector-brush drawing program?? Isn't that like saying "vector paint program"?
Inkscape is a vector drawing program. In previous threads, we expanded the term "drawing" to encompass, well pretty much anything. :) Why limit Inkscape's vector capabilities because it doesn't fit a particular definition of "drawing"?
I've really seen the term brush used more and more lately, in reference to Inkscape, and in what I consider to be an inappropriate way. Inkscape can achieve brush-like effects, with great effort. But unless there really is some plan to actually add true brushes, and develop Inkscape in that direction, I think we should discourage using that term. It gives a false impression of Inkscape capabilities, imo.
The term "brush" is used because that's what the effect is. Inkscape already has vector brushes in the Caligraphy tool. It's important to use terminology that users are familiar with. Saves a lot of explaining, just to be told "well, why didn't you call them brushes" like everyone else? :) I brush (in all graphics programs) refers to a shape applied along a path with added transformations. The effect is that it acts like a brush, so the term brush is appropriate here as well as in other drawing/painting/editing applications.
As it's referred to on the Pen and Pencil control bars, I think Shapes is better, referring to the profile of the stroke. Shapes, or maybe even "stroke profiles".
Or we could call them "brushes" like everyone else does, and spare the user the technical jargon we make up. :) Our "stroke profiles" are analogous to "brushes" in other programs. So when people ask "does Inkscape have brushes?" And we hit them with "no, but we have stroke profiles." Yea... let's just call them brushes like everyone else does, for the same reasons everyone else does. :)
Referring to a different comment in this thread, I didn't intend to "bash" GIMP earlier.
That comment was in regard to the remark "There's something good in GIMP?" - Don't do this, people. GIMP project are our friends, and you'll make none here by belittling another projects hard work.
I just dislike the interface, as a personal opinion.
We are not talking about GIMP's whole interface (as if one could write it all off as "bad" or something). Someone is mocking up wireframes based on how GIMP handles brushes. That's what sparked the GIMP comments... and people keep derailing the conversation. GIMP's entire user interface is not within the scope of this thread. Let's see where the wireframes go before denouncing it because it might look kinda like how GIMP does it.
There's every chance it's an effective interface for a raster program. But I don't think it would be effective for Inkscape.
No one is suggesting copying GIMPs whole user interface. :P
What's wrong with the Shapes menu, to hold the stroke profiles or so-called "brushes"?
"Where are the brushes in Inkscape" "They are in the 'Shapes Menu'."
Nah, not feeling it, personally. ;) Most everything in Inkscape is a "shape". Say "Brush", and people will know what you are talking about right away.
No need to reinvent the wheel here from my perspective. We could call them "vector brushes" like Krita does. It's important to stick with terms that are analogous to real life terms that are similar to the functionality. It makes learning and recall easier, and thus more intuitive.
-C
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:39 AM To: Jabiertxo Arraiza Cenoz Cc: inkscape-devel
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool using powerstroke?
I think breaking out the brushes and effects into a dialog of its own is really the only way to go. I've not encountered a single graphics program out there which handles many (potentially customisable) brushes that doesn't have it's own side-panel/dock for the brush pallet. It really MUST happen at some point for Inkscape to become a better vector-brush drawing program.
Thanks to all for the hard work on this, esp Jabier! -C
On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:53 PM, Jabier Arraiza <jabier.arraiza@...2893...> wrote:
Hi all.
As far I undertand boolop union result is more for the caligraphic tool than for the pencil tool.
Anyway we have a feature that Nate like too much and is not pressent in Calligrapic tool is the min/max pressure. This is easy to do but we need more space on the toolbox because it not fit into my monitor size.
Is not the only tool that have this problem and when the program grow the problem become bigger. Also because the lack of space we need to compress the widgets and make hard to undertand. The cuestion:
¿What about removing this toolbar by a tool dialog in the right like for example Gimp, that autoupdate controls between tool changes? This give "unlimited" size to expand tools. Also I'm in favor of a expander at the end of this dialog for advanced users or not all day use features.
Finaly seems easy boolop union with previous strokes in calligraphic tool.
Cheers, Jabier.
On Mon, 2017-08-28 at 13:13 -0400, Nate Yungkans wrote:
Hi! I figure I'll just throw myself in here.
It sounds like you are requesting something like the Adobe illustrator blob brush. Essentially this tool is like Inkscape's calligraphy brush with an auto merge feature. Which could in fact be a handy feature. In illustrator you can paint with the brush and the new shapes merge it with a selection or a layer or maybe even all. The same effect can be achieved by using Inkscape's calligraphy brush and then merging the shapes. All the blob brush does is make that automatic.
The really cool thing you added to the pencil that would also be cool on the calligraphy tool is the Max/min size.
Illustrator Bob brush tool: https://youtu.be/4bhltsqSp_0
Am I correct in my interpretation of what you are asking for Miguel?
On Aug 27, 2017 10:12 PM, "Miguel Lopez" <reptillia39@...3603... m> wrote: > I like the work that's being done, by the way, I have a > suggestion. > You know how you can spray objects and have the path joined > together, right? I'd like to see the option to do that > while > stroking. > > On 8/27/2017 6:38 PM, Ivan Louette via Inkscape-devel > wrote: > > Very convincing ! And there we have even more control > > than > > Expression for simple lines ! > > > > ivan > > > > > > Le Lundi 28 août 2017 0h27, Jabier Arraiza <jabier.arraiz > > a@...3394... > > .es> a écrit : > > > > > > Hi all! > > > > This week I do a similar implementation and mark it for > > merge > > request. > > Here are a preview of the new branch running: > > https://archive.org/details/inkscapepencilpressure > > > > All the best, Jabier. > > > > > > > > On Mon, 2017-08-21 at 22:36 -0400, Nate Yungkans wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > I'm Nate, the one who posted in the forums. I started > > > just > > > > asking if > > > the feature existed, but was told I should ask for it > > > as a > > > > feature so > > > here I am. Hello :) First I wanted to say I love the > > > program > > > > and > > > find the features super useful. The powerstroke is one > > > of the > > > > coolest > > > features and I am having a lot of fun playing around > > > with it. I > > > > have > > > been an Adobe Illustrator for years but I am already > > > enjoying > > > inkscape more. Anyways, the reason I was asking about > > > pressure > > > sensitive line work is because it could be a huge time > > > saver > > > > for > > > manga art(or any extensive line art) where line work is > > > > incredibly > > > important. It seems like all of the features actually > > > exist in > > > Inkscape, but not together as a tool. The calligraphy > > > pen works > > > nicely with pressure and the mass(for precision), but > > > if the > > > > line > > > needs to be edited in an meaningful way, they basically > > > need to > > > > be > > > redrawn. > > > > > > The powerstroke feature is awesome, but in its current > > > state > > > > may > > > require a lot of manual setting line thicknesses if > > > there are a > > > > lot > > > of complicated lines. Being able to control the stroke > > > width > > > > via > > > pressure would make it a very smooth process. > > > Unfortunately it > > > > would > > > not be as useful without a preview as you draw. Maybe > > > it could > > > > use > > > the same preview the calligraphy tool uses? Even if > > > that isn't > > > > a 100% > > > representation of the final product, it would guide the > > > user to > > > understand how much pressure they are applying. > > > > > > I asked about an auto simplify feature not only for the > > > benefit > > > > of > > > reducing the number of nodes, but also in aiding fast > > > smoothed > > > > line > > > work. I see that a line drawn with a pencil has a > > > smoothing > > > > feature, > > > maybe that can also be applied to the powerstroke outer > > > lines > > > > as > > > well; or maybe the pressure has an adjustable sample > > > rate? > > > > > > Additionally, it would be fantastic if there was a way > > > to > > > > increase or > > > decrease the relative distance of the powerstroke nodes > > > from > > > > main > > > path. In essence it would be like increasing or > > > decreasing the > > > > width > > > of the powerstroke. As an example I recorded my screen > > > using a > > > variable brush tool in Illustrator. It reads the pen > > > pressure > > > > and > > > applies it to the stroke, but also allows that stroke > > > to be > > > > increases > > > or decreased. > > > > > > Screen capture example Video: https://youtu.be/u78JlGD9 > > > Y34 > > > > > > Example of the adobe brush tool simplify/fidelity > > > options: http > > > > s://yo > > > utu.be/iIW_oeUcO2E?t=144 > > > > > > That same tool in adobe also has settings to > > > control/limit the > > > > brush > > > size and shape. I've been utilizing mass, thinning and > > > fixation > > > > to > > > accomplish this effect in Inkscape. > > > > > > > > > https://youtu.be/iIW_oeUcO2E?t=97 > > > > > > > > > I think that covers what I was originally asking about > > > and > > > > more. > > > Hopefully it was not too much. Thanks so much for all > > > the hard > > > > work > > > you have put into the program! I know this software is > > > a lot > > > > of work > > > and new features are no small thing. I am not really a > > > > programmer so > > > I can't contribute to the effort that way, but if you > > > have a > > > > need or > > > desire to include a UX/UI designer I would be happy to > > > help! > > > > > > Manga line example that I did not draw: > > > > > > > > > If you got through the whole email, thanks for > > > listening! > > > -Nate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Nate > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Jabier Arraiza > > > <jabier.arraiza > > > > @marke > > > r.es> wrote: > > > > I wait he present to the list to reply. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Jabier. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 2017-08-21 at 05:44 -0600, brynn wrote: > > > > > > Hi Brynn. > > > > > > > > > > Great and easy to do. I could do if we want. The > > > > > problem is > > > > no > > > > > realtime > > > > > preview, so you need to finish the path to see the > > > > > variable > > > > > > > > width. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe I can add a preview while drawing but this is > > > > > more > > > > complex. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, Jabier. > > > > > ________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Well I don't use this kind of feature myself. So I > > > > couldn't say > > > > if > > > > > the lack of > > > > > live preview would be crippling. I'll try to get > > > > > the > > > > person who > > > > > posted the > > > > > message to subscribe to the list, so he can give > > > > > comments. > > > > > > > > > > How would it work? Would it add pink nodes where > > > > > the > > > > pressure is > > > > > greater? And > > > > > then the artist drags them after the path is > > > > > finished? Or > > > > would > > > > the > > > > > variable > > > > > width be immediately evident when the path is > > > > > finished? > > > > > > > > > > And it would only work with graphics tablets? > > > > > > > > > > One benefit for such a tool (it seems to me) would > > > > > be that > > > > the > > > > number > > > > > of nodes > > > > > probably would not build up so fast, as it does > > > > > with > > > > Calligraphy. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Jabier. I'll try to get this guy to > > > > > subscribe so > > > > he can > > > > > discuss > > > > > directly. > > > > > > > > > > All best,, > > > > > brynn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Jabier Arraiza > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 2:23 AM > > > > > To: brynn ; Inkscape-Devel > > > > > Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity > > > > > for > > > > Pencil > > > > tool > > > > > using > > > > > powerstroke? > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------- > > > > ------ > > > > ------------- > > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the > > > > world's > > > > most > > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/sl > > > > ashdot > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Inkscape-devel mailing list > > > > Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape > > > > -devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > --------------- > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the > > world's most > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashd > > ot______ > > _________________________________________ > > Inkscape-devel mailing list > > Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-dev > > el > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > --------------- > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the > > world's most > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashd > > ot > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Inkscape-devel mailing list > > Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-dev > > el > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > ------------- > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's > most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Inkscape-devel mailing list > Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel >
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